Hi.

Finally ! I nearly finished Arnika. It wasn't easy but I made it with only 4 deaths. Met a lot of highlevel enemies and I must say, without the help of the wandering HLL guys, mages or other friends I'd have much more trouble and death characters. I have not found a big difference about combat time between vers. 1.5 and 1.6. You still need patience and some combats last for more than 15 min.

Deathstalker created a wide range of new monsters. They all have a different height ( looks good for me ). F.e. a Halfling is only small ( he bites in your kneecap :D ) and that new BIG chief of the graveyard is as big as Pee Wee .

I think, the party is complete now ( 8 characters ). My party contains Mage, Bishop, Bard, Gadgeteer, Ninja and Valkyrie. I hired an Umpani rogue ( new NPC )and RFS-81 who is now in Arnika. All characters have lvl 11 now .

Because you meet ( and fight ) all races early I already have hostile common rattkins and hostile common rapax.

There a many new weapons, armor and items. It's hard to decide, what is good for the party members, because many good attribures are neutralized through penalties like spellpoint-loss or speed-loss. It seems that money is no problem.

In Arnika I still must finish the bank and the temple crypt. After I finished that, I'll be on my way back to the monastery to get Cierdan's weapons. I set a portal there so i don't need to walk. In the tomb there is only one enemy, who sounds like the Djinn, you need to kill in the Mt. Gigas cave ( Night Ops ).

After that I'll visit the Umpani.

[img]graemlins/monster5.gif[/img]


Edit : I haven't read any report of that mod from another player. Am I the only one using it ?

[ 07-29-2005, 04:18 AM: Message edited by: Loudhy ]

I haven't played the most recent one.
I could never make it very far at all without accidentally turning friendlies, and the way the friendlies are stacked together means turn one=turn them all. The game just doesn't work with all red dots. I need a chance to interact with one or two of them before killing them. (and yes, i did finish it a couple times, iirc Ver 1.4)

[ 07-29-2005, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: Scatter ]

Hi Loudhy,

I also recently loaded Deathstalkers what a great mod! (I didn't think an amazing game could get any better!!!)

Just restarted (1st party made it to level 14 but I had to restart - my samurai didn't have a 65 piety! and the other reason I'll explain why)

I wouldn't go to Umpani, I think deathstalker meant us to go from Arnika to Trynton. To get to the Umpani you'll have to fight you way through a high level party - with a demon summoner of course. Then you'll have to take on a 14 member Assassin raider group, these guys are too tough at 12th level!!! Two nasty mages and two 450hp skeleton lords!! I managed to get around them, I was hungry to pick up my flag and kunar's spellbooks but on returning to the map the guild raiders had managed to get themselves stuck BEHIND the Umpani camp, seriously when you move from the barracks to start your umpani training the corpse lords start combat!!! You'll have to kill them at range!!! (Impossible at 14th!!)

I would suggest visiting the cave on arnika road -

there's a nice mace for divinity users - fairly difficult fight

I also stuggled in Arnika, those raiders are nasty, even with wings and fido I won with two characters alive!!! its those demons that faithkillers summons, drive me crazy, they in turn summon elementals and those killed four characters.

Sorry for the long post just really enjoying this mod.

Glad I took a thief and a fighter my party is currently fighter, samurai, thief, bard, bishop, bishop. Just got my demon slaying stuff and heading back to Arnika for my date with that demon summoning annoyance.

Cheers
Saridu

Hi!

Now i heard something about this new mod, but could anyone give me a quick overview please? What are the main differences, whats better whats worse than the original game? Maybe i'll try it, although my current party seems to do quite well, probably it will me occupy some more time.

Hi killerTeddy,

What's changed wow! Where to start try NPC's spells items encounters monsters

NPC's Several new npc's (I haven't tried half of them...) eg a umpani thief who is for hire on the starting beach - he's 8th level gives you an idea of mod. Theres also a rapax samurai (with a polearm?) a faerie valk and a trynnie lord - no seriously, Vi is a mission to get to and you'll most probably be closer to 12th lv when you get there. Myles is a th/gadgeteer you find him in the starter dungeon and RFS is in arnika

Spells Major overhaul, spell domain changes (superman is now divinity)class spell lists changes -power to the priest! a few interesting new spells and spell levels changed - tsunami in now 5th! might to magic is 4th Most importantly mages have changed they can learn ALL spells but use NO books! - the side effect of this is wiz bishops can learn all spells and still use books! balance their obscene xp

Items all new system more extended swords (and axes?) more sp regen thanks Deathstalker! returning thrown weaponary new gadgeteer stuff changes to the bard eq - not so great :( but still good to play changes to most of the existing stuff the SOD is a demon slayer! and samurai's need a pie of 65 grumble

Encounters hee hee you walk around the corner and hit the shift Q ! no not that bad but some serious changes almost all major areas have been modified, there hostile adventuring group by burz, the upper monastery (you know those nice brigands, not so nice anymore) arnika road thugs , rogue leader and arnika of course major bad ass group waiting for you there. He mixes the mobs up so there some mages, a summoner (you know that lovely ability of al seduxes well Deathstalker put it to use!) a few fighers and a cheesy rogue or two really good work and a lot of thought went into them.

Monsters rogue leader is a mob! Small gripe (not really a bad thing) I ran into a rogue leader and the 9th lv brigands on 5th level! Yes I ran like hell Still its common to be seriously out gunned good thing ds dropped portal to 4th - theres also several high level good npcs to help you out liberally sprinkled

The only major flaw is wizfast needs to be installed and you have to take a chess like aproach to the game, some of the combats can take hours - by the umpani base camp these a mass combat between 14 thugs and about twenty npcs and your party, thats why I suggested to loudhy to take them on a bit later nothing worse than spending three hours slogging it only to backfire a toxic cloud and oh well hit the load button. Another thing you may have gathered is its flippin difficult and this is on normal. Suggest (though I'm sure you have) to finish the standard game first. The other thing is DS isn't big into hints so you'll fight street corner to street corner only to find that kick ass weapon you know is in that cave requires a piety of 65 - yes I am bitter [img]smile.gif[/img]

My opinion hit the download button and let the carnage begin!

Cheers
Saridu

This mod is a lot of fun. Watch out for mageguards and duskwalker shamans in the early game, as they like to summon monsters behind you. Some of the summoned monsters can also summon monsters.

Since there are more enemy parties with magic users, and eye for an eye is common, you will have to adjust strategy to deal with them. That is the best thing about this mod: it forces you to rethink your playing style. To compensate, DS lowered the level on many spells, and built a bunch of enchanted weapons.

There are more long battles. I actually enjoy the large monster and allies set battles. You often have to bail out allies, and sometimes they save you. I like to end combat with as many allies alive as possible. Healing potions and resurrection powders take on a new importance.

I have played through the first Umpani and Trang encounters,killed the Ratts in Trynton, and got Cierdan's weapons. There are good axes, daggers, swords, and maces so far, but a limited amount of good spears and staves. If you are running a Valkyrie, you should start her as an alchemist.

Combat is definitely more challenging. The bad guys are tougher, and there are more of them. On the other hand, walking the roads is easier because there are allies available.

All in all, this is almost as much fun as the first time I played Wizardy 8.

By chance, I installed the mod last weekend and tried it. I made it to Arnika (from the Monastery), and here are my impressions of the mod.

First (and most importantly) of all, I would like to emphasize that I *am* impressed by the amount of work that has been put into this mod, and I am most definitely having a blast playing the modded game. It is, indeed, almost like playing the game again, for the first time. So now I have two distinctly different Wizardry 8 games for the price of one, not bad at all (given that I originally discovered the game in the discount bin). And believe me when I say that I really can appreciate the effort that must have been invested in the creation of this mod - I am speaking as someone who has authored a currently available CRPG (no, don't ask me to name it, I won't, because I want to preserve my anonymity), and I *know* how many hours/days/weeks a project of this scope will take. It is something you can do only if you truly love your work. And now you give it away for free - muchos gracias, I am in your debt.

I wanted to say that first, as I am now going into some specific comments. (If I had simply started with the following comments, you might have thought that I am dissatisfied with the mod, - which I am certainly not; the mod is great!)

So here goes... look out for *SPOILERS* below

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1) Game balance
I know, this is a touchy issue. Even a tiny change can tip the balance tremendously.
As suggested, I downloaded an editor and gave my characters enough experience to start with a level 5 party. That turned out to be overkill. The whole monastery & everything until Arnika was a walk in the park. I did not even need to hire any NPCs. About the only problem I had was that my characters were getting poisoned far too often (there were so many poisonous monsters) and none of my casters could learn Cure Poison yet - I ended up buying all potions of Cure Poison that Burz had available, and even that was just barely enough.
My party?
1 Lizard Man Warrior
2 Mook Ranger
3 Mook Gadgeteer
4 Mook Bard
5 Half-Elven Bishop (Wizardry/Divinity specialist)
6 Half-Elven Bishop (Psionics/Alchemy specialist)
That's pretty much standard party composition for me today, giving me enough melee muscle power & missile/magic firepower as well as access to all gadgets, instruments and spells in the standard game. The only deviation from my standard party is #2 who would be faerie ninja in the standard party; in the mod, I did not know what items would be available (if the CoC would be available at all), and, to be frank, without the CoC, a faerie ninja would be waste of a good PC slot. The Ranger was a better choice overall: the missile criticals are at least as good as the ninja's thrown criticals (since the missile weapons/ammo tend to be better than thrown weapons; esp. if you have a gadgeteer to produce an early Triple-Shot Crossbow), the Ranger can wear better armour and wield better weapons (the CoC being the obvious exception - and in that case, you will be further limited to just one race, and an extremely wimpy & limited one at that), the Ranger can learn Alchemy just like the Ninja, the Ranger advances levels faster, and, on top of it all, the Ranger has the automatic searching ability - superb for playing the game (or a new mod!) the first time without having to cast Detect Secrets all the time. So, if I am not specifically going for the CoC (and this time I was not), I will pick a Ranger instead of a Ninja (as you can see, I already have a Bard & a Gadgeteer for pickpocketing & disarming, respectively).
Oh, I have finished the regular game. Three times, Normal & Expert. So I guess I am a somewhat experienced player and know what I am doing. In any case, starting with level 5 characters, my party simply overpowered everything they encountered until they hit Arnika (more on Arnika later on, see issue 2). No, I do not think it was simply because I was experienced and knew how things worked. The Monastery was filled to the brim with *great* items - the kind of items you would not find until much later in the regular game. Several bard items & gadgets, some of them very powerful - e.g., an instrument that activates for Crush! Sometimes the effects were more insidious, like the odd % chance of inflicting an ailment in a weapon or ammo. Don't get me wrong, I think these weapons are great variations of the boring stock weapons, but keep in mind that something not-so-likely becomes more and more likely the more you use it. For example, let's say that a weapon has a 15% chance of paralyzing your opponent. After 5 hits, it is 55% likely that the weapon has at least once paralyzed a foe. After 10 hits, the chance is 80%, and after 20 hits, 96% (assuming that the RNG is functioning "properly"). Remember: all this is *in addition* to the regular damage. Likewise, it *is* exciting to discover new instruments & gadgets (especially since my lvl5-kickstarted characters can use them almost immediately), but having a Lute of Crushing so early in the game is simply ludicrous. Even though the monsters are more powerful than their stock counterparts, they don't stand a chance against a well-balanced party controlled by an experienced player.
I would recommend that experienced Wizardry 8 veterans (those of you who have completed the game) start with level 3 characters (rather than level 5 characters) for a challenge that is comparable to the regular game. Or start with level 1 characters if you wish a *slightly* greater challenge (but if you have already played "solo" games, you will make it - it isn't worse).

2) The battles, esp. Arnika
Having beaten the Sorceress Queen mob & the Rapax Army three times (twice on Expert, mind you), I do not get anxious when the enemies greatly outnumber my party. It is just a question of getting your priorities right, i.e., knowing what you have to do first (usually cast Element Shield, Soul Shield & stuff) and who you need to take out first (typically the summoners). Ok, this worked pretty well here (except that I did not have Soul Shield or Element Shield yet:), although I admit I was getting slightly worried by the level 16 and level 18 enemies (my party was level 7-8ish) that kept summoning demons and elementals and dodged my every attack. However, this is not the issue, as I enjoy the challenge...
The duration of the battle was the issue. This battle alone took 1.5 hours REAL TIME (in turn-based mode, I always use that). A single battle! Being a married man, I seldom have that much time to play, PER DAY.
The culprit? The stupid "friendly" creatures. They were lumbering around slowly, getting in my way, blocking my shots, etc. In other words, they were making the battle last at least twice as long as it otherwise would have! A single turn in this battle took as much real time as normal medium/big battle without the meddlesome friendly creatures. I actually found myself cheering every time when Baldhair or whatever friendly creature bought the farm ("Great, things will slightly speed up again."). I actually even considered declaring war on the friendly characters and ridding the world of them myself; they were just making the game very near unplayable.
What stayed my hand was an earlier experience in the Monastery. I had inadvertently angered the group of adventurers (still not sure how, possibly by the new "hurt-everyone-make-no-distinction-between-friend-and-foe" spells), and found myself fighting them (in addition to the actual enemies). Sure, I beat them along with two groups of enemies, but that totally wrecked my Higardi ratings. Not good, as I want to be able to do some shopping in Arnika...
As for the battle in Arnika (2 groups of frogs, 1 group of "mercenaries"), I *think* I could have won the combat without the help of the friendly creatures, but maybe not without casualties. On the other hand, Resurrection Powder is available, and I think that losing a PC or two would have been preferable to the hour&half slugfest.

More to follow later on (when I have time to play again).

[ 08-01-2005, 06:52 AM: Message edited by: seclists ]

Well, thanks for your detailed answers!

But, i still can't share your enthusiasm. Fights that lasts more than an hour? Never. What's "wizfast"? Some tool to speed up fights by making monsters run even faster? I mean, one of the worst things that can happen in "standard"-wiz8 is meeting a huge group of piercer modais, nothing interesting, maybe not even close to dangerous, but it takes so long!
Still, what are these new monsters - unsued graphics that were already there, or even completely new ones? Or just "recycled" ones - needn't be negative, as long as new flavours are added to the game. And whats about the new NPCs and such, are they somhow related to the story, and does the story still stay the same?
Another point, you meant you still needed another editor to start at a level greater than 1? I have the impression the balance of the original game is quite hard to receive, or should i say preserve?

Guess i save this mod for later, maybe try flames mod first (tried the very first part of the game with it, curious how it would continue). But i think it will last a few more months till i'll get a new pc (and get gothic 3 [img]smile.gif[/img] ), so more than enough time to squeeze the last outof wiz8!

Despite my possibly sounding negative, my overall impression was very good (as I tried to emphasize in my first reply). Heck, I *am* still playing the mode and definitely enjoying it, even though I can typically play only one major battle per day (or night) - I just don't have time for more in RL.

Wizfast is a separate utility that is supposed to increase the monster (Combat) movement speed manifold. Not bad, however, this does absolutely nothing to the other actions - they will still cast spells, swing, shoot, receive hits, etc. as slowly as before, so the benefit of the utility is really marginal when there are dozens and dozens of creatures involved (as there often are, counting the "allies"). Oh yeah, btw, NEVER EVER use anything that casts Slow in this mod -> maximal masochism! The Slow spell was probably the worst spell effect in the regular game to begin with.

There are not actually any *new* monster graphics in the mod (it figures, since the archive is only a meg or two in size, and the graphics for monster models would need a much bigger archive), but there are some new item graphics, some of them pretty nice (also for some stock objects; the Crusader Helm looks way better now - the original graphic was awful).
However, the mod creator has made some very creative use of the existing creature models. The models for some creatures that appear only once or twice or are NPCs/allies have been recycled into deftly-named new monsters. Oh yes, finally you can kill Croc(-lookalikes) without adversely affecting the plot. They are called "patchwork golems", and they are actually quite tough. Furthermore, there are some very radical size variations of the existing models, from tiny midget "halfling" humanoids to the awesome, looming Corpse Lords that dwarf even Savant Behemoths. All in all, even though no *new* monster models have actually been added, the monsters *feel* very new and different.
Perhaps the only "recycling" that I find unconvincing is the use of certain air/water/etc-based monsters as lower-level "elemental" creatures (you'll know what I mean when you see them - what's the Soul Eater doing as an "elemental" creature?).

As for game balance, I would say it is slightly tilted in favor of the player. That is not to say that the game lacks challenge; I have just had my first run-in with the aforementioned Corpse Lords and (despite the multitude of allies), I got 3 characters killed in that fight (2 in a single round, having used a certain Dulcimer just the round before!) and decided that it was reload time, come back a few levels later. But still, the awesomely powerful items that the game keeps giving you for free very early on (and I thought the unlimited Crush instrument was bad; that's because I hadn't got the Violin of Elements yet) make your characters much more powerful in this mod.

Still, my biggest beef is the duration of the battles. I guess it wouldn't be that bad if I had nothing else to do in my life, but as I said earlier, I'm a family man and maybe have an hour for games every couple of days, or maybe not.

At some stage, I *will* start butchering the allies to make them pay for the torture of causing the game last ages.

[ 08-08-2005, 01:56 AM: Message edited by: seclists ]

I just reached the Umpani Base Camp. No further deaths. The Northern Wilderniss was surprisingly easy. A nice recovery after Arnika and the roads.

But I had the second game crash with a message, that I should contact the W8 developers for help and send them the message. Nice. I haven't seen this window for more than 2 years. Has anyone of you players out there discovered something similar ?

Greetings

[img]graemlins/monster5.gif[/img]

[ 08-08-2005, 05:26 AM: Message edited by: Loudhy ]