For the purpose of generating discussion (and to see what others think of my assessment) I'm posting some thoughts on character classes. I've made up a few classifications, should be pretty easy to follow. I'm mostly concerned with parties of at least four, so arguing that such-and-such works well for tiny parties would probably not be relevant. I'll try to leave out things that are obvious (fighters can use most weapons).

Double Damage Classes
If your intent is to create a powerful party, I don't see how you could scratch either of these off your list. Rouges sometims to triple or more damage on top of handicaps, and since single-handed swords and daggers usually have initiative boosts, you can attack many times per round. Rogues can also use most ranged weapons and modern weapons. IMHO, fighters are basically as good as rangers with a bow, as I seem to have terrible experience with criticals compared to some of you.

Spells for Nothing Classes
These characters are extremely useful in the parts of the game between the very beginning and the part where you wander around Ascension Peak looking for level 30+ enemies. As long as you max strength and use stamina regenerating items, you shouldn't have too much difficulty keeping them conscious. And they can learn at least one close and one ranged weapon quite well, if you stick with it the whole game. The Bard, of course, can become a very effective fighter after level 18 (or sooner if you prefer, but why bother?), and for this reason is more preferable in my mind than the Gadgeteer. Haste, Insanity, Heal All, Restoration, Shrill Sound, Pandemonium, Freeze All, Magic Screen or Noxious Fumes, Terror, Guardian Angel, Armorplate, X-Ray, Detect Secrets, Earthquake, Asphyxiation, all at level 5-7 and as often as you like.

Dedicated Magic Classes
I find casters to be important to fill gaps in your spell needs. If you don't have either of the class above, you'll probably want one or two casters to make sure you can use Haste, get Healed, cast Element and Soul Shields, un-insane people, create and use Portals and generally clean up around the campfire. They can use slings pretty effectively, but don't count on much more, weapon wise. Eh, give them a stick to hit people with while they're learning and then the Staff of Doom, but that's probably your best bet. I don't really like Bishops, as I find little use for learning many spells or having huge amounts of Mana, when Magic Nectar is plentiful.

Hybrid Classes
This game is about specialization. I don't like them. The only reason, IMHO, that they can be powerful is because of specialized equipment, which seems very uninteresting to me.

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[ 07-03-2002, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: Avalanche ]

I agree with you. I think almost exactly the same, but I like the bishop. The bishop is the perfect backup. And if you class change it around level 10-13 to a pure caster, you won't lose much experience. The pure caster will go levelup much faster at this point. I tried it.

Heh, Bards' stamina, Casters....Oh, yeah! Rest All!!!!!
I just switched a Mook from Bard to Fighter, she's got 1 Rogue and 8 Bard levels, her primary function is Haste and then Giant's Sword. This is gonna be fun!
I totally disagree about hybrids. Their casting can be very powerful with no sacrifice to combat skill development. A Lord can make a lot of stuff go away with Mauler and Diamond Eyes, because of the dual bonus and Mauler bonus. And heal, help open chests, and make more mobs disappear with Banish and Death Wish. Monks can caste Haste and make the whole party do twice the damage per round, and totally mow stuff down with hand and foot. All they take is a little practise session now and then to boost the skills they can boost outside of combat, and in combat, fight only. Character development will bring on the special effects. I've been getting crits around every 10 monsters with a Sam, Monk and Ninja in a party with a Lord and a Bard-to-Fighter (this one switched at L12 total, i wanted the instruments, but i decided it was too late, the Fighter's development is gonna be a bit behind everyone else).

[ 07-04-2002, 01:43 AM: Message edited by: otter ]

I absolutely loved my gadgeteer, and honestly am not that impressed with my bard. The only instrument that I really have used a lot on a consistent basis is the rousing drums for haste. Used the bless spell a lot in the early game, and the insanity one, but I found myself missing my gadgeteer a lot. The instrument I'm most disappointed with is the freeze all one. I figured that it would be awesome, but I have had very very bad luck with it. Oh yeah, I use that dulcimer of mending a lot, too-but gadgies get heal all, too. Maybe it's just a difference in my playing style, but my bard has died a LOT, and failed to save my party by dying before the dulcimer a lot, too.

As far as hybrids-I love them, even if you don't use the "cheat training." (a word if you don't know what that is-things like spending all night training stealth for a level in the monestary or casting knock-knock and resting ad-nauseum to get your earth and spellbooks up) Just using those words for lack of anything else-we've already had the discussion about whether or not it's actually cheating on another thread a while ago. Some specific thoughts-I just wish that ninjas didn't take so long to level, but after using the CoC, who cares *grin*. Sams-took a while to develop well, but when they do-watch out! Lord-I was really not impressed. With a bishop taking care of healing, I found his spell-casting rather useless, so I switched him to a fighter as soon as he got portal, and he's much more effective now. Properly developed, a fighter can have more fun dualing, IMHO. Valk-loved her because of that polearm bonus. Rangers-mine's a mook for that GS-kicks butt both ranged and close. Monks-love mine. Mows through the competition with fists of fury.

I have not used any pure caster classes yet, but plan to on my next game. I have found my bishops to be a heckuvalot of fun, and I don't use the "cheat training." However, with the way that I play, developing my bishop's skills has gotten in the way of my hybrids becoming potent casters, so I'm going to specialize and try to make my hybrids really work their magic skills and see if that works next game.

Avalanche, I thnk our play styles must be very different: I love bishops, valks and sams, in part I suppose precisely because they are harder to equip an develope than most. I enjoy offensive spells, and love the way a good nuclear blast can shorten a combat that would otherwise be boringly long, and like my front liners to be able to heal them selves or throw a few fire balls if they happen to be packing a cursed weapon.

Not saying your analysis is in any way flawed: as long as we are both enjoying the game in our own way, the gamemakers have done their job.

Oru