I'm about ready to restart my game given my new-found knowledge from the "Newbie Questions" post. Can anyone give me pointers on how to roll for character creation? (EDIT:) More specifically, can you tell me what would be the miminum I would need to roll/allocate for each of the following characters? This is important in light of the fact that I plan on doing quite a bit of D/C-ing later in the game. I will probably use the template that NobleNick suggested a few weeks ago (which follows), though with some modifications.

Paladin
DC Fighter[9, 12 or 13]/Druid
DC Fighter[9]/Thief
Fighter[12 or 13]/Cleric
Bard
Fighter[12 or 13]/Illusionist

Yes, I realize this is a fighter heavy party for the beginning. However, I am assuming I can use potions and sleep often to get through the first part of the game without a healer.

Any words of wisdom?

Cary

[ 09-16-2004, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: Dancing Virginia ]

Ok, let's start from begining.
You want two tanks. First one would be paladin, you should:
max out STR(18/00 is too good to be true, but even 17 will do nicely)
DEX(always max this because of AC bonus and to hit rolls)
CON = max (tanks get hit- a lot)
INT can be dropped (if you are a powergamer drop it down to 3, but I like to keep it around 9 or 10)
WIS should be 14-16
CHA = 15 (it is minimum for paladin, but, you really dont need it higher)
For second tank I would recommend fighter/cleric DC
STR -max
DEX -max
CON -max (note that after lv12 you don't get hit point bonus anymore)
INT -drop
WIS -at least 17, otherwise you can't DC
CHA -drop (but again, try to be realistic, Who would want ugly, unpleasant, obnoxious companion ?)
Easiest to roll would be fighter/thief
STR -at least 15(16 is better)
DEX- 18-dualclassing anytime
CON- 16 is more than enough
INT- drop (but thieves are rarely stupid, so let's make it 14)
WIS- drop
CHA- drop(see above)
Bard
STR- drop (but adventurers are rarely weaklings aren't they)
DEX- 16(give or take some)
CON- 16 is max, but even 13 will do
INT- 16 at least
WIS- 14 (high lore saves an indentify spell slot)
CHA- 15 its minimum for bards, and you really don't need it much
Fighter/illusionist
STR -at least 15(16 is better)
DEX- max (but 14-16 is just fine
CON- drop, but not too much
INT- 18, you will need it believe me
WIS- I'm not sure here, but i think that illusionist needs this stat too, so dont drop it too low (in the worst case, you can get fighter/mage DC
CHA- I suspect its similar to WIS. Suggeston, try to roll a pure illusionist and look what are minimal values for WIS and CHA
And now we get to the toughest roll- fighter/druid DC
STR-15 (more is better, but...)
DEX-14 (if you are lucky there should be more)
CON-14-16 (no less, no more)
INT- drop
WIS- 17 is a must but 18 is better
CHA- 17 (no less, no more)

Oh I forgot. Just a little side note on F/C, proficency points for weapons should be only in hammers, maces, flails, missile weapons and not more than two *.

[ 09-16-2004, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Yanez ]

About your last comment regarding specializations...I was under the impression that you can use any of your old proficiencies once you've reached the level at which you D/C-ed in your old class. Is this not also true of clerics?

I guess that applies more to magic users who gain their fighter skills again when they reach the level of their former class. Is this a correct assumption?

True, proficiences are regained once the DC process is complete. However, weapon and armor restrictions still apply from all active classes.

"Old" proficiencies can only be used if they are in accord with the ethos of the dual-classed character's second class.

Which is a fancy way of saying that priests (druids and clerics) have to abide by the weapon restrictions of their class. So, you could take a bow proficiency with a fighter, but would not be able to use it ever again once dualed over to priest (as both clerics and druids cannot use bows). Mages and thieves that dualed from fighter can use any weapon they used previously as soon as their level exceeds the inactive fighter level. The reason for the difference is that thieves and mages have restricted weapon choice because of difficulty in mastering weapons, concealment issues (thieves), and strength considerations. Priests have a philosophical or religious-based aversion to using certain weapons, so wouldn't use them even if they could. But d/c mages and thieves had time to master the weapons and their own physical strength as fighters, and their weapon restrictions were based on training and ability issues, so they can use those weapons.

I disagree with Yanez slightly, in that you can put more than two proficiency points in each of the weapons you pick for your dual-classed characters; up to 3 points in missile weapons (sling) and up to five in a blunt melee weapon. In fact, this type of specialization is one of the main perks of a d/c character over a multi-class character.

Here's how I would roll up your characters.

Paladin
S - 17+
D - 16+
C - 16+ (but 18 is far, far superior, as it is for Dex and Str)
I - optional
W - 13+ (the minimum is 13, any more is bonus)
Cha - 17+ (17 is minimum; 18 to get best prices)

General observations on the paladin-tank: if you have leftover points, max Dex first, then Con, then Str; one point for Cha should come in there somewhere. From a roleplaying perspective you may want to up the Int a bit (to no more than 8, unless you get a total roll in the 90s). You can alter this order a bit depending on what you want from your tank the most (e.g. durability, hitting power, better prices, etc).

Fighter/Druid
- the hardest to roll. NobleNick has an excellent breakdown of score allocation; use it. I'd definitely max out Wis, though. Then Dex, then Str, then Con. Int is unnecessary. If you want the best game results, drain Int to the absolute minimum.

Fighter/Thief
- Max Dex, Con, Str. The rest is optional, except from a roleplay perspective. This one is so comparatively easy to roll that you might wish to check every roll for high Str (18/76 or better) to maximize your fighting potential - it really helps on thief backstabs. Don't put any skill points on Pick Pockets, as your bard can cover that. Split your points roughly into 5 - 2/5 to Find/Remove Traps, 2/5 to Open Locks, 1/5 to Stealth. These proportions can change as FRT and OL get close to maximum.

Fighter/Cleric
- Maximize Dex, Con, Wis. Str is good too, as is a not-too-awful Cha (10+). Make sure the character is of good alignment.

EDIT: Str must be at least 15 to dual over.

Bard
S - 15+ is preferable (if possible - extra Str is good for wearing armour and using composite longbows, but don't sweat it)
D - 18. Absolutely - you need it to maximize your pickpocket roll, your AC, and your chances to hit with missile weapons. If you guard your bard well it might not be totally necessary, but if your bard has to fight at close range, you will want it. (Also see Con comments, below)
C - 16, but no more (no benefit). Necessary for HP. Without it, your bard looks like dead meat in close combat.
I 16+ - as good as possible - high Int affects your chance to write spells from scrolls and also your lore (ability to identify without using a spell).
Wis - drain it, but not too low. A bad Wis hurts lore, and a good Wis helps it. Excess points go here, not to Cha.
Cha - 15. The absolute minimum. You already have characters with at least 17 Cha, there's no reason to up the bard's score.

Fighter/Illusionist
S - 15+ (minimum, but higher can really help)
D - 18
C - 16+, 18 for best results
I - 17+: it must be 17 to dual.
W - 8 minimum
Cha - totally unnecessary/optional.

Although Wis is practically useless to some of these characters, try not to drain it below 8 unless you have to. A score of 7 or less means penalties to saving throws vs mind-affecting spells (fear, paralysis, charm, etc).

As a general rule, maximize prime requisites if you can - Str for warriors, Dex for rogues, Int for spellcasters, Wis for priests. Then maximize skills that help in combat - Dex is best, followed closely by Con, then Str. Wis should be at least 8, and Cha isn't necessary for any class that doesn't have a minimum requirement. Try to have one character with max Cha in every party; that way you can do all your buying with that character and go with minimum Cha for everyone else. You may have to make some tough decisions, such as when you don't have enough points to max out Str, Dex and Con. If it occurs, refer to your party as a whole and consider that character's role in it - your F/D may not need 18 Con if the bulk of melee fighting is handled by the Paladin, F/C and F/T. Str might be a better investment to carry more loot and deal more damage.

[ 09-16-2004, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: Aerich ]

Hey Aerich, do you know all of this stuff from simply playing IWD and the like or from AD&D? Just curious.

Cary

Both. I played pen-and-paper AD&D for a few years. I am also blessed with a very retentive memory and a mind that constantly formulates strategy. Additionally, I've read the IWD manual in its entirety (ok, I skimmed a bit), and I've read probably 80% of all the threads in the IWD section of this forum and another forum (GameBanshee).

<font color = mediumspringgreen>Cary,

So, how did it turn out? What is your party's stats? I am especially curious to know if you were able to roll a good DC Fighter/Druid before you developed carpal tunnel!

</font>--------------------<font color = mediumspringgreen>
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!
</font>

Ahhh...I've been on travel for work for the past week and then at a swing dance competition in Minneapolis all weekend. *sigh* I'll let you know how it turns out though!

Cary