Well, I was thinking about this. Is it possible that powergaming is, in essence, a vital part of roleplaying?

Let's put this into perspective. You're in a dungeon, with an automatic rifle and a knife. A guy with a pistol starts shooting at you. Would you pull out the knife, or the automatic rifle? I personally would pull out the automatic rifle, thanks very much.

Now, let's put that into the context of BG2. Some people decide not to use the best weapons because they're too powergamerish. But would it be good roleplaying in that case to not use them? Almost every character has a sense of self-preservation, the will to keep on living. The easiest way to do that is to use the best armor to protect yourself, and use the best weapon to stop the other guy from hacking at you, becuase no matter how good your armor is, they're gonna get one in eventually.

This brings myself to why would powergaming be almost essential to roleplaying. Roleplaying is trying to act out how a character would react, if you were there, with the knowledge and the attitude that is inherent to your computer generated character. Why wouldn't you use the most powerful weapon?

Comment?

You would definitely use the most powerful weapon, that can't be questioned. However, let's say you are in the world of BG2, an essentially European style world. Would you train in long sword, the standard weapon, and most common, or katana, a rare, exotic weapon? You wouldn't know that arguably, the best weapon available is a katana.

Powergaming is also not so much the usage of the best weapons and equipment available, as it is using math and fore-knowledge to create the statistically best, often unrealistic character. The crux of the argument against powergaming then, is that putting points in katana simply to get Celestial Fury as the best weapon is simply not realistic: someone is much more likely to use longswords, or axes, or whatever. Themed characters are more likely to use such weapons however.

As True_Moose said, powergaming involves using foreknowledge known to the player, not to the character. To borrow Moose's CF example: If you ask a powergamed character why he specialized in Katanas, he'd say "To use Celestial Fury." If you ask a roleplayed character, he'd say something involving his past.

This example doesn't illustrate anything. It assumes a roleplayed character would use a knife and only a knife for ... some reason.

That doesn't mean they're roleplaying. It means they don't like cheese, and they'd rather play using non-cliche weapons. You need to differentiate between what the player does and what the character does. If what the character does is because the player wants the character to be the "ultimate" whatever, it's probably a sign the player is powergaming. If what the character does is because the character would do that in a particular circumstance, that is roleplaying.

Then you might ask, "What if the character himself wants to be the 'ultimate' whatever?" Then the character is a megalomaniac (like Tiax), and he's fully entitled to be, but to be properly roleplayed he cannot use foreknowledge to assist him in his quest.

A player's attempt to avoid things he considers too easy is not an attempt at roleplaying. Also bear in mind, just because an item exists in BG2 doesn't mean the player acknolwedges it. Being the player's game means he can ignore the item if he doesn't want it to exist. In this case, the character is never presented with the option to use the item; ergo, the decision to use it is never encountered.

So, to return to your example of the gun vs the dagger: a player who doesn't like cheese may not acknowledge that the gun even exists. In that case, his character only has the dagger at his disposal.

-Lem

Let's put this into perspective. You're in a dungeon, with an automatic rifle and a knife. A guy with a pistol starts shooting at you. Would you pull out the knife, or the automatic rifle? I personally would pull out the automatic rifle, thanks very much.

I think True_Moose and Lemmy pretty much answered this one, but let me add my own spare change.

If I were roleplaying this situation, I would think how my character would react before I would think about how my character would go about killing this guy (if my character wanted to kill him at all). I might decide to use the knife over the rifle because I know I can get in a clean hit with the knife or that maybe there's something wrong with the rifle. I might not want to kill the guy at all; maybe I can talk the dude out of trying to kill me. Or it could be one of those movie cliches where the guy's not firing at me but instead at something behind me, and the guy with gun could be a friendly person who knows I'm the only way out of the dungeon. You see?

People make a common mistake when debating the powergaming vs. roleplaying question. They focus only on the options the game presents. IMO, good roleplayers don't attack and kill every red-circled creature or suck up to every blue-circled one or do every big quest or similarly-aligned quests (only good or only evil). BG2 roleplayers focus on character first, then situation second. If forced to pick between two paths, I'll try my hardest to pick a third or fourth. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Now, let's put that into the context of BG2. Some people decide not to use the best weapons because they're too powergamerish. But would it be good roleplaying in that case to not use them? Almost every character has a sense of self-preservation, the will to keep on living. The easiest way to do that is to use the best armor to protect yourself, and use the best weapon to stop the other guy from hacking at you, becuase no matter how good your armor is, they're gonna get one in eventually.

Some weapons are too powergamerish because of how they're implemented in the game. Take the Flail of Ages for example. This flail can slow a creature on hit, and that slow is cumulative. It gets to a point where the enemy can't move at all, and then it's easy pickins. I can understand an otyugh or frost salamander not being able to do anything about it, but what about an enemy cleric or a lich? If it were PnP and I was getting whacked by the FoA, I'd be doing everything possible to negate that slow effect. I'd also still be able to act, albeit very slowly. It's in the game code how BG2 characters act the way they do when slowed. Or how about the Item Upgrade mod? Upping a weapon's bonus from +3 to +5 just so that weapon can hit creatures that require a +5 weapon to hit? It's a reasonable request, and I can picture a character badgering Cromwell for making the upgrade for just such a reason, but upgrading a weapon like that in PnP takes time. I can see dropping the weapon off for a month or so and maybe even doing a special quest for the proper equipment or somesuch, but trading in easy-to-find gems and gold for a 5-second whiz-bang upgrade? Now that's powergaming.

This brings myself to why would powergaming be almost essential to roleplaying. Roleplaying is trying to act out how a character would react, if you were there, with the knowledge and the attitude that is inherent to your computer generated character. Why wouldn't you use the most powerful weapon?

Simple--because not every character is out to kill or worried about keeping from BEING killed. There are hundreds of Bhaalspawn walking Faerun. Who's to say they're all heroes?

From what I've read, powergaming seems to mainly reveal itself in the stats a player goes for.

As a real world type example, with a minor spoiler.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

Throughout the game, complete strangers who you meet will ask to join your group. They will risk their lives for you, and literally follow you to hell. If your fighter character has a charisma of less then 12 then you are not being realistic.

A typical story on the difference between role- and powergaming (minor item spoiler):
I'm currently playing a Priest of Helm (LN) and I have Minsc in my party using Two-Handed swords.
Now coming across the Vorpal Blade (a.k.a. Silver Sword) he'd most certainly want it and I would too powergaming-wise. Yet I am a Priest of Helm, a neutral character who strives for balance, so roleplayingwise I cannot justify taking this uberweapon from it's rightful owners just to use it for my own gain. It would upset the balance and thuys contradict the goals my PC has set for his life as a priest to the everseeing god.

First of all - the D&D rule sets are completely unsuitable for roleplaying because they contradict reality in so many ways. This is not unusual - after all it's not called fantazy for nothing - but being build up around a rigid class system you are rarely in the position to make a judgement yourself.
It makes sense that the years of training in magical arts makes it difficult at best to train in many weapons, but why only daggers etc.? When you have little time to train wouldn't it make more sense to select a more powerful last resort weapon? And if you did find a sword in which you had no proficiency or training wouldn't you be able to at least swing it wildly about? Shouldn't a fighter be able to use the SotM, but only like an ordinary staff?
I reckon D&D games are more like Interaction and Manipulation Games (IMP - an abbreviation created for the purpose). It's fun, but it isn't _really_ roleplaying. It lacks immergence.
I think of BG like very advanced chess or something down that alley. You accept some rules and follow them. Powergaming is a ruleset and restrictive gaming is another one.

All that really matters is: Are you having fun playing the game.

you've not seen the current AD&D ruleset have you?

IWD2, just go try it and you'll understand better..


Now to the powergaming issuse, powergaming is when you use OOC info like say stopping and scanning for trap's just before a heavly trapped area, over scanning for trap's all the time..

Roleplaying is doing what your char would do, IE renting the most expensive room in an inn, not drinking potions because "they taste like sewage" and so on..

Maybe. But they ain't the ones that have to find their sister who's been thrown into it. Whether or not they're heroes, they're forced into the hero spotlight by necessity, the mother of all invention. Even the most passive person will probably defend himself from attack. And the best way to defend oneself? Kill the person who's attack you. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Sort of on topic... Come to think of it, I should start up a M.E.R.P. circle soon. I need to do some extreme role playing table top style. :D

That is where all the fun is with a group. You get to think and make descisions based on everything you know about your char and environment etc.

Fantasy, YES!! I LOVE to escape hehehe. I also LOVE these PC games in that they alow me to escape without having to gather everyone together. Too many conflicting scheduals once we have children of our own.

Don't mind me, I am at work and I had five minutes to rant ;)

I am enjoying this topic though.

Have fun all,

Pystal