Exactly, mate, you do indeed. Not that I don't see where you're coming from, but this IS out of line!



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Melusine, Sultry Elflet, High Queen of Fluffies, Archbabe of the OHF, LH and HADB
http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/mel1.gif
Your voice is ambrosia
Amy Brown Fantasy Art

Luther that is a joke. This is a great time for America bashers like you to come out. God forbid that your country be hit by terroists. I'm sure your counrty DOES NO WRONG. Is America that bad. Does America help your country? Probally. Does America help most countrys around the globe? Yes! Should we bomb countrys who aid and fund terroists. Yes! This world must stand together aginst terrorism! Your counrty could be next. Watch your words, because you may someday eat them!

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http://24.17.217.175/upload/nick1979a5.gif
TD..TD...

[This message has been edited by nick1979 (edited 09-12-2001).]

OK, fair enough, this second post of yours displays much more maturity and shows compassion for those innocents that lost their lives yesterday. My aunt nearly lost her life as well. Your opinion above may prove to be an unpopular one, but you are entitled to express it - as long as you show respect towards the opinions and feelings of others.

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http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/memnochsig.gif

Nick, like I posted before: as soon as you start to believe you are entitled to bomb innocents because they happen to live in a country that supports terrorists, you are, IMHO, not a hair better than those who made the attacks on America yesterday.


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Melusine, Sultry Elflet, High Queen of Fluffies, Archbabe of the OHF, LH and HADB
http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/mel1.gif
Your voice is ambrosia
Amy Brown Fantasy Art

Just for those who are interested, there is INTEL from some kind of intercepts (probably cell phones) that Bin Lahdden (sp) is at least indirectly and at most directly behind the attacks.

Luther is an ignoramus and doesnt know what he is talking about. The USA is not behind destroying anyones way of life...unless they happen to be despotic dictators or religious fanatics that kill innocent men, women and children. Our policies in the middle east have always been to try and bring peace to a people who have been slaughtering each other for centuries all in the name of "god" Of course they forget the passages in the Koran that forbid the killing of innocents because those are inconvenient to their blood lust.

Bin Lahden(sp) claims to be Muslim but he ignores all the most sacred tennants of the faith, how the morons in the street can support him, is just an example of what happens when you keep the people ignorant and illiterate.

I've vented enough, The USA has had people do some wrong things but no one deserves what happened yesterday. And in a country that shelters a Bin Lahden(sp) there are no truely innocent (except the children) because even the supposedly innocent allow their governments to sponsor a madman.

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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

You are generalizing. We are all talking about 'a country that supports terrorists' but thi country is made up of millions of people, most of whom had nothing at all to do with this. If we kill all these innocents because of the actions of a few of them, we're no better than they are.

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Kazara

Waitress at Cloudy's Cafe

I just hope Mr. Bush gets good advice as the consequences of his actions will be far reaching. Also if war is declared of Afghanistan, it is worth remembering that this country wasn't beaten by the largest empire in the late 20th century, the USSR. I sincerely hope war is avoided... as someone has on their sig

"war is not about who is right...but who is left"

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http://website.lineone.net/~swhite10...ile/knight.gif Holy Avenger of the OHF and part time Pinguindiebjäger

I find it very sad that so many had to die in this horrific act of terrorism which has caused us to take this evil seriously. Terrorism is not new. Why should it get to this level before action is taken?

Mark

<-------- That's wierd. My post came out as a quote. Fancy that.

BTW So did Christians, not so long ago. The crusades? The many, many wars in our history? They are completely against what stands in the bible.

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Kazara

Waitress at Cloudy's Cafe

For whoever asked..no yuou are not alone in supporting Bush, I don't always agree with the Repulcian party but he has impressed me as someone who can change his life and live with dignity and honour. he has impressed every single world leader he has met with as an Honest, sincere and Honorable man...they have said so publicly even if they disagree with his policies.

Ask Valdimir Putin...he was very Anti-Bush until they actually met and Putin has called him a "truely Great Man" So he is a lousey Public Speaker I don't care if he can speak in public as long as he can get the job done. As for last nights speach...I thought it was ok, it wont rock the world but it was exactly what was needed and wasn't full of grandstanding or political maneuvering.

The video of congress singing God Bless america did bring tears to my eyes, even though my cynical heart did think, ohh what a "Photo-Op"

God Bless America, God Bless the Prsident and Our other leaders and God Bless all of you out there who have shown kindness and sympathy for us.

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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

What America has or hasn't done is of no importance now. NOTHING justifies such gruesome acts of terrorism. Similarly, NOTHING justifies avenging the innocents who died yesterday by bombing other innocents. We all have to STOP thinking in terms of races and countries. There are complete bastards and good-hearted people in EVERY country. You CANNOT blame a whole people for the actions of a few inhuman beasts they have in their midst.



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Melusine, Sultry Elflet, High Queen of Fluffies, Archbabe of the OHF, LH and HADB
http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/mel1.gif
Your voice is ambrosia
Amy Brown Fantasy Art

Kaz you are so so so off base with that comment. It wasn't US christians doing that slaughtering...there was no USA at that time. Yes the crusades did bring war but they diod not bring the first war to the area, were they right no but what the hell does a religious incursion several hundred years ago have to do with todays peace efforts? Doood! err Dooodette! your on the wrong page.



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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

And if you think you can, then you might as well nuke away all of Germany right now - I'm sure there are still a few Nazi war criminals hiding the cracks. Oh, but America, too - all these school shootings? Timothy McVeigh? I'd call those inhuman beasts as well.

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Kazara

Waitress at Cloudy's Cafe

I did not mean the US in that comment, I'm sorry if it sounded that way. I thought (must've misunderstood) that you'd made a generalization against Muslim extremists. There were Christian extremists too, I just wanted to mention that.


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Kazara

Waitress at Cloudy's Cafe

Sir-Tainly they survived that incursion by the soviets only with MASSIVE aid from this coutry, they received aid in the form of weapons, training and military advisers. The single most important thing they got fromt he uSA were stinger missiles which allowed them to fend off the Soviet Helocopters which were tearing them up.



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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

Quit ragging people. Say what you've gotta say but leave the individual jibes out. You say you've been here and there (in intelligence or whatever), doesn't mean you're right. If anything it more than likely gives you a healthy dose of bias toward American action.

Mel that's the problem with war. I'm sure if anything is done that we will be very careful of where we bomb. We will not go after the innocents like these monsters did. Thats what sets us apart from terroists. We do not go out and try to kill innocents. Some may die, but it is not our intention. The problem is that we must stop terrorists. They can stike anywhere in my country or yours. We cannot let this happen again anywhere?



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http://24.17.217.175/upload/nick1979a5.gif
TD..TD...

No Kaz what I was trying to get accross was that we are being touted as destroyers of peoples lives because we have been trying for the couple of decades to bring peace to areas that are being ripped apart now because of religions, the peoples of that part of the world were trying to wipe each other out before the crusades and have continued to this day.

The USA has tried to help the people of the region, we helpped Iraq defend itself against Iran..and look how Iraq turned out, Afghanistan exists today because we helpped them devend against the Soviets ...now look how we are repaid. We rebuilt France after world war 2...look how friendly france is to us....Frankly with results like that I think we should quit helpping people and let them fend for themselves.....but we don't because we actually care about people. No it isn't all altruism, we also know that if everyone is at peace then trade and economies run smoother...War disrupts trade, and is bad for everyone but the arms dealers.



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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

Luther I was not ragging on Kaz out of the blue, I was responding to a direct comment from him to my post. I try to address my posts tothe individuals they are ment for..such as this one being for you. Since I was responding to you, I put your name as the first word...understand? It is not because I am "ragging" on you.

Now my first post with your name in it WAS ragging on you, but you deserved it and asked for it with your.....post of dubious intelligence.

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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

[This message has been edited by MagiK (edited 09-12-2001).]

Mel I agree with you about the innocents, which is one reason why the USA has invested huge fortunes into developing "smart" weapons, it is to reduce the casualties to the innocents. You cannot wage war without having innocents killed, but we do everything we can to reduce the number of innocents as much as we can and yet still get the mission accomplished. On the other hand...if you allow a terrorist to camp out in your back yard and do nothing to try and stop him from killing other innocents are you truely innocent?

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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

Ever considered that American intervention to try and bring 'peace' to these areas has merely upped the stakes? They had been killing each other through tribal feuds for thousands of years (and these feuds long outlasted the Roman Empire, another foreign body which marched in and stomped on them in an attempt to bring 'Peace'), these feuds have not wiped the people out, they maintained a delicate balance. Now the Americans and all their ideological bravado about 'freedom' and such have brought in an upsetting amount of foreign weaponry, techonology and ideals.

Of course why would the U.S.A. give a shit about the middle-east if it didn't have all that oil. We've seen how quick they were to abandone Vietnam after practically obliterating it with Bombs and defoliant after they lost too much face.

Yeah you are right. I wouldn't want to confuse the issue with facts. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif got to say you made me smile with that lil bit of inadvertant humor


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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

People, as I posted in another thread, calm down, all right? We're all very upset, so tempers are flaring and people are lashing out at other people because of misunderstandings. Trust me - this isn't making things better. Let's keep this a civilized, objective discussion, okay?

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Kazara

Waitress at Cloudy's Cafe

I that case, I think we actually agree on the matter. To me, really the only thing that matters is that we MUST prevent innocent people's deaths. I just cannot bear to think that there are people out there willing to kill for their cause...to me, taking a life is unthinkable, the worst crime a (wo)man can commit. Still, I think that even I would want to see the person responsible for this killed. I could never kill a human being, but the one who consciously planned yesterday's events, to me is not a human.



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Melusine, Sultry Elflet, High Queen of Fluffies, Archbabe of the OHF, LH and HADB
http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/mel1.gif
Your voice is ambrosia
Amy Brown Fantasy Art

A good way to calm your conscience in wanting revenge isn't it. Dehumanise them and they're all just cattle.

I know this but don't you think another country could supply aid to THEM if they were attacked by the USA? Iran and Sudan have both developed domestic munitions industries. As with the Mujahadeen all they need is small arms/SAMs etc and they would be deadly. Also Libya another Anti-US country has significant arms dumps .

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http://website.lineone.net/~swhite10...ile/knight.gif Holy Avenger of the OHF and part time Pinguindiebjäger

Kaz no emotional fit here, Im not raging at you, just commenting on your response to my post. I think you really missed the mark with your first response and since then it has been just an ordinary discussion...at least in my mind it has been sorry if you have preceived anger or anyother sort of negative emmotional content.



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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

*SIGH* that is JUST the attitude I am trying to prevent! Read my posts again.


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Melusine, Sultry Elflet, High Queen of Fluffies, Archbabe of the OHF, LH and HADB
http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/mel1.gif
Your voice is ambrosia
Amy Brown Fantasy Art

I wasn't saying that that is what I believe. It's just the way things work is all. Sadly.

<font color="white">Luther
You have many country-men here in our country. Talking with them, they say they love living here. One of them is serving a mission for the church, and lives 3 miles from me.
Furthermore, those towers that no longer exist worked for 26 countries, I believe I heard them say. Anything that happens to us, affects you, doen't it? New Zealand is an ally of ours, and they are anxiously awaiting to hear what we will do in finding the answers we seek. It sounds like you don't care too much about your own govt.'s opinion, as well as the lives of your own countrymen. I feel sorry to know that you would see your own kind go under with us...</font>

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Father of the wicked but cute child known as MaryBeth
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Padre de una niña bien traviosa pero guapa
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Aisukuríimu ga tabetái desu.

Just in general: What the world is afraid of, is that America's actions aren't considered enough.. No one approves these plane crashed, but an action which is not considered enough, is not approved as well.

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I am committed to restore your faith in extreme violence...

Link
Overlord Executioner, Slayer of Fluffed Beings
Member of Clan HADB
Supreme Warrior of Myst

Oh yes Im sure you are quite right, thats why I doubt that the US would try to invade, our purpose is not to invade but to exact retribution and to punish the people responsible, you don't need to expose yourself for this. All you need is good recon and a few remote delivery systems such as Cruise Missiles and precision munitions so you don't have needless innocent casualties. This would not turn into another Viet Nam.



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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

That's true. But my opinion doesn't matter either. Unless I fly a plane into a building.

Link could you provied one or two examples where the US response to an act has been hasty or ill considered? Im trying to think of some, but all Im coming up with are measured and reasonable responses....If the us WERE prone to illconsidered and unreasonable reactions the WORLD would not be here today as the US and USSR would have wiped it clean of everything but cockroaches.

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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

[This message has been edited by MagiK (edited 09-12-2001).]

<font color="white">Everyone's opinion matters. Get enough of the same opinion rallied together, and the world can change. One strong leader with an opinion can make or break anything.
And on an added note, I really like the New Zealand people. Everyone I have met have been most honorable and most kind. (and big appetites)http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif
Are you a native?</font>

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Father of the wicked but cute child known as MaryBeth
http://sc.communities.msn.com/tn/02/...ysSite/1/1.jpg
Padre de una niña bien traviosa pero guapa
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Aisukuríimu ga tabetái desu.

Yeah, that was my point. No one cares about what some whacko thinks until he or she gets some degree of power. Blah blah blah I'm sure no one really cares.

If you mean native as in Maori, then no. I'm of Scottish and Spanish decent. But I was born and raised here http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

Oh, and I don't actually believe most of what I type here (I don't discuss my beliefs with stangershttp://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif). I post it to get some decent discussion going. Even if it can be determined as 'negative'.

MagiK, if you truly believe that your ragging on people is ever "deserved" or that your judgement of someones intelligence gives you the right to denigrate them, you are DEAD WRONG. If that is how you feel, and how you will post, you should probably find another forum to post to.
Although you have posted some good contributions, your attitude is inconsistent with what IW is about, and antithetical to what you yourself espouse.

Thanks Absynthe. Never thought anyone would ever stick up for a no-good nay-sayer like me. Cheers. *Pat on the back*.