Hi!

My current party just cleared the mountain wilderness, as soon as i can fin a longsword i'll try the retro dungeon there. They are all levels 14-15 (RFS-81 lev. 13). The mage (faerie) and the priest (dwarf) should become a bishop and a lord at some point in the game, and i'm wondering when will be the right time?
The other two are a fighter and a rogue, so the mage wants to learn spells of a third area. What would you say, psionic, or alchemist (without any powertraining)? I know she'll be able to continue training her skills, but what spells will she be able to learn? Will her level count as (mage-level + bishop level), or max(mage-level, bishop-level)???
The priest already is learning how to use maces, but he wants to get some better armor (cause he's at the frontline), so he should change at the latest just before i reach ferro (that will not too soon, i just tried to reach him and failed - 6 partols, 4 warmages plus 2 archers, somewhat hard). I hope if i classchange him after level 18, he'll continue to learn priest lev.7-spells at a lord level of 5?

A lot of people seem to endorse switching right after level 18. I think that in most situations this generally wouldn't be a good idea, but in your case you'd probably be OK. The problem is that those level 6 and 7 spells depend heavily on your experience level as a caster, not just your skills; even if you max out all your spellcasting skills, when you first get those level 7 spells you'll only be able to cast them at a very low level until you earn a couple more levels. If you switch to a hybrid class it counts you as being 4 levels lower and your casting ability drops even more. It does "stack" bishop levels in with your "main" spellcasting class, so switching to bishop does let you continue working on the power of your high-level spells, but it also causes your experience requirements to skyrocket so it'd be pretty slow going. In a full-size party, a level 19 bishop really isn't going to have much leveling opportunity unless you spend lots and lots of time building up experience after making it to the endgame.

However, in your case if you only have 4 party members you should have enough experience to go around that you could switch to bishop and still gain enough levels to make your level 7 mage spells worth it. At this point you could switch your mage basically anytime and be OK (if you switch now it'll take longer to get your level 7 spells, but you'll get alchemist/psionic spells through bishop faster). And I think it's pretty much OK to switch Priests just about anytime, although it depends on your party and playing style; priests' attack spells are almost universally disappointing, and their healing/support spells don't really need high power levels to be effective (especially the uppermost ones). so it doesn't matter so much if their power levels drop a bit from a switch. So have your priest fill up on any "must-have" spells, then go ahead and switch them ASAP.

[ 07-10-2005, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: Random Passerby ]

The thing to remember is that it seems Wiz8 was designed so that a class-changed caster will not be as powerful as a non-class changed one in terms of how well they cast the top level spells.

However, they will have access to more spells which can be very useful. If you want to go down the "most powerful" route you're generally better off sticking to one class. If you don't envision casting the level 6 or 7 spells very often then by all means change class and get access to some new spells.

xfactor

This about the spellpower being related to the character level - i know it exists for bards and their instruments, but if they classchange they're no musicians any longer. Strange, if i change a mage to bishop why should his spells get less powerfull??? Are you sure about this, or even better, can you quantify this? I really would like an effective Asphyxiation or Nuclear Blast!

My priest will change as soon as good weapons and armor is in sight, i agree with you random passersby that his high level spells aren't too good anyway (and he definitely hasn't much to do in many fights!)

actually, you are correct. Any pure Caster changing to Bishop will notice NO loss in ability in their previous School, EXCEPT you no longer have the 25% bonus in that School. Your spell progression will not suffer any gaps in your original school, and your Realms will also continue developing right where you left off.
You'll just have 3 new Schools with really low scores!

That 25% bonus does have a noticeable impact, though, especially when it comes to those level 7 spells, and the increased experience requirement from switching to bishop will slow down any further development. But in a smaller party a mage-turned-bishop should be getting enough experience to get a decent nuclear blast. Still a little behind a pure mage, but not as bad as if you switched to samurai or fighter or anything else.

This brings up a good question. Since the effectiveness of your spells is highly dependent on your level versus the monsters, does a level 10 bishop with 10 mage levels have a 10 level advantage over a level 10 monster or would you have to be level 20 in one of those classes?

I definitely agree that for the Faerie Mage, a switch to Bishop is pretty much a win-win. Slower XP, but lots more spells and only minor sacrifice on high-level Mage spell effectiveness.

Dwarf Priest switching to Lord is a little more difficult. If you're really finding the Priest spells to be rarely used (or mostly used pre/post combat) then there isn't much reason not to switch to Lord. You're probably essentially giving up on your level 7 Priest spells to do this: even if you've learned them, you won't really be that effective with them. But hey, if you can buff before combat, heal after, and maybe just fire off a Soul Shield in combat, that's not bad at all. I'd agree with level 18, but you could make the switch a couple of levels earlier if you're completely giving up on level 7 spells.

If you do like the high level spells, though, the "Battle Priest" is a variant that's been used by other people on this board, sticking with the Priest class but training in weapons and adding to Strength (and sometimes Dexterity or Senses) in addition to other Priest attributes to be more useful in combat. Also, although Priests don't get nearly as good armor as Lords, keep in mind that they can use most shields. Aside from a possible slight loss of efficiency by putting points into combat attributes instead of initiative/spellcasting attributes, you stay a full-power Priest. Just one more option to keep in mind.

Either way, good luck and have fun!

Hey, i did it! Both have changed now. I didn't know i could still learn mage level 7 spells with 18 mage levels and 1 bishop level! Great! Now the little one at least can wear antones faerie armor - she got killed quite too often (guess 6-7 times already!) but theses umpani are really hard, every enemy shooting so no sense hiding at the back row (and missile shield isn't perfect either). The new born lord didn't achieve much yet - but now i'm on my way to ferro! Already collected about 550000 coins, really it's time for some shopping (anyone tell me why you need alchemists to make money??? perhaps to equip 4-5 fighters, else i really don't know)
BTW, when do you think is it possible to cast e.g. asphyxation at a power level of 7 (with more than a 50% chance of success)?

If you mean, can a character ever do so, yes; once your Realm skill is maxed it's only a matter of Caster levels. In your Mage-Bishop's case, if you max Air and make it to L23 (or 24?) you should have all green dots in your PL palette (for any spell in the Wizardry School).
If you mean, "should i try overcasting Asphyxiation": It depends on everybody's resistance to Air, if you backfire!

[ 07-15-2005, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: Scatter ]