We really should start a new thread for this topic...
:D

It has been proven deterrance is not a crime reducer.</font>[/QUOTE]I keep hearing that quoted but it is never proven. I first heard that issue raised in the 1970's and they couldn't back it up then and they can't back it up now. There are no statistics for it because it hasn't been tried...no one in the US has ever instituted a really sever penalty system because of the Civil right issues. What we DO know is that as enforcement and punishment has grown laxer over the years, crime has gone up not down.

It has been proven deterrance is not a crime reducer.</font>[/QUOTE]I keep hearing that quoted but it is never proven. I first heard that issue raised in the 1970's and they couldn't back it up then and they can't back it up now. There are no statistics for it because it hasn't been tried...no one in the US has ever instituted a really sever penalty system because of the Civil right issues. What we DO know is that as enforcement and punishment has grown laxer over the years, crime has gone up not down.</font>[/QUOTE]You're only looking at your own country. Crime and punishment have been around a lot longer than the United States. [img]smile.gif[/img]

You're only looking at your own country. Crime and punishment have been around a lot longer than the United States. [img]smile.gif[/img] /QB]</font>[/QUOTE]No I wasn't just looking at my own country...I was looking at many others as well say for example...Singapore....very harsh and stern penalties for crime there....very low crime rate..of course they also have no individual freedom as compared to the US but hey....its safe.

If you look at developed countries (you have to compare apples to apples) the countries with lower crime rates always seem to have a couple of things in common...harsh penalties and low amounts of individual freedoms as compared to the US.

You're only looking at your own country. Crime and punishment have been around a lot longer than the United States. [img]smile.gif[/img] /QB]</font>[/QUOTE]No I wasn't just looking at my own country...I was looking at many others as well say for example...Singapore....very harsh and stern penalties for crime there....very low crime rate..of course they also have no individual freedom as compared to the US but hey....its safe.</font>[/QUOTE]Comparing Singapore to the US is ridiculous. A city of 3.5 million next to a nation of 280 million odd? Security is alot easier with a smaller population. So is consistency of values.

A rather famous notable founding father of our country once said, that those who would give up an ounce of their freedom for an ounce of security, will lose both and deserve neither. Just a point to consider. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Cheers,
-Sazerac

A rather famous notable founding father of our country once said, that those who would give up an ounce of their freedom for an ounce of security, will lose both and deserve neither. Just a point to consider. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Cheers,
-Sazerac</font>[/QUOTE]See this is what I'm talking about. A founding father said this? Incredible.

What do we call road rules? It's giving up the freedom to do whatever we like on the road so that we won't crash and die every two seconds.

What do we call currency and private ownership? It's giving up the freedom to take whatever we want, and go wherever we please, in return for the security of trading what we earn for anothers earnings. (Meat for corn)

What do we call swimming between the flags on a beach?
Giving up the freedom to swim anywhere on the beach, so that we have the security of a lifeguard close by to save us in times of trouble.

What do we call having a job?
Giving up the freedom to laze about all day, for the security of food on the table, and a roof overhead.

I'm sorry, but that 'founding father' was way off beam in my book Sazerac. He's probably the root of many problematic schools of thought. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I could have used the example of monogamy - giving up the freedom to sleep around, for the security of a constant companion.

<font color=orange>Majik I would add to the point about societies and low crime rate. It seems to me that countries that have low crime rates are closed societies. Ones that are pure so to speak. Look at Japan. They are not a melting pot. Norway and Sweden are not Melting pots. The US, Great Briton, Germany, The Netherlands and Australia are melting pots. Melting pots meaning they have VERY diverse cultures. Just an observation.

Yorick, would you trade the freedom of speech for security? Or the Freedom of religion for security? That's what that quote meant. Basic freedoms that are enjoyed by all citizens of this country.</font>