Dramnek....I just realized..when it comes right down to it...your philosophy toward guns is, punish the innocent and ignore the guilty.....very bad policy there guy.

According to the US dept. of Justice, approximately 25,000 individuals annually defend them selves with firearms, thus preventing 25,000 possible innocent fatalities. (statistics from the physical year 1998)

No actually, I'd consider them rather conservative. If you think they are Left wing extremists, what on earth would you make of truly left wing parties, like the British Socialist party? Still proudly carrying the Marxist banner after all these years?

Here in Britain, we have a tight gun control and a very low murder rate per 100,000 (less than the U.S.A), period. Britain is also a very multicultural society with many different nationalities and ethic groups.

Why is our murder rate so low?
Because of the lack of firearms.
Can you disprove that?

In 1999 Law enforcement agnecies from accross the USA declined to back a bill to further restrict handguns and firearms rights of citizens. Instead they proposed that current laws be enforced and harsh punishments be meted out. In the 1990's prsecution of firearms violations declined 97%, police arrested the criminals but the Justice department declined to prosecute.

To fix the current problems, enforce the current laws, with stiff penalties, do not punish those who do not break the law...you keep ignoring the fact Dram, that the vast majority of gun owners never did anything wrong..so why target them?

Doesn’t it rather go against the concept of freedom of speech and justice to shot someone simply for burning a flag?

The who? I've never heard of 'em

No actually, I'd consider them rather conservative. If you think they are Left wing extremists, what on earth would you make of truly left wing parties, like the British Socialist party? Still proudly carrying the Marxist banner after all these years?

Here in Britain, we have a tight gun control and a very low murder rate per 100,000 (less than the U.S.A), period. Britain is also a very multicultural society with many different nationalities and ethic groups.

Why is our murder rate so low?
Because of the lack of firearms.
Can you disprove that?[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]You are changing your story now....the original post that my comments were toward was about Wales, not the UK as a whole.

So now you are saying that because A is true for the UK then A has to be true for the USA, which is not the case since our two countries are not similar in scope, geography or makeup.

well you win, Im done trying to discuss this, you are not interested in addressing the fact that you want to control innocent people with new laws because criminals are bad.....if you cannot see the illogic there....debate is pointless.

Just on a logic note here and nothing to do with guns at all, you cannot prove nor disprove your murder rates based on limiting your examination to guns.

Just as you cannot disprove that because the USA consumes more hamburgers than the UK that Hamburgers are the cause of a higher murder rate.
\
Hell YOU nor I can even prove your assumption that your per capita murder rate is lower. All you can do is base your assumption on someone elses numbers.

[ 05-21-2002, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

Straw man,
If you want to shoot firearms as a hobby I don’t want to stop you. However The costs of making firearms freely available to the public far outweigh the benefits.
I will say again, compare the murder rates for the U.K and America, ask yourself why there is so much of a difference.
Besides tighter controls on gun ownership make it harder for everyone to get hold of them, even criminals, since most criminals won’t go as far as to get one on the black market, unless they know their victims will be armed.
Tightly controlled weapons that are kept at a target shooting range are o.k. But nothing more should be allowed, since the costs outweigh the benefits.

[ 05-21-2002, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: Dramnek_Ulk ]

[/QB][/QUOTE]Umm Donut...if you comit murder...you ARE dy definition a murderer, wether you are family or not. Second, where did you get the statistic that most "Firearm" murders are caused by family members? I think if you check your figures that there may be a high incidence of family killing family but that the methods of murder are not usually firearms, though they too have been used for this act.

[/QB][/QUOTE]

They are not criminals before they commit the crime. And you are misquoting me - I never used the word 'firearm'.