John D Harris is the member to talk to about shirts. I think he runds a company doing just that

Glad YOU thought of that [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I've been browsing this thread all day and I'm going to do something I normally don't do. I'm going to RANT a little.

There is an issue that has been raised in this thread that I feel very strongly about....and I disagree even more strongly with the Responses to this issue.

I'm talking about the special avatars for members who choose to donate monthly.

There has been a LOT of objections to this, as it would create an elitist caste system that would make others feel "less" important. I completely disagree with this view.

It is standard business practice (not to mention common courtesy) to acknowledge any person, business, or corporation that makes a donation to a cause or a company. Ziroc is very good about doing this. He ALWAYS gives public thanks to everyone who "helps out" - and that is more than enough for those who donate once, twice, or even occassionally.

BUT, if a member makes a commitment to send money every single month to Ziroc to keep IronWorks running, that deserves special recognition.

Does it mean the opinions of those without special avatars will be "less" worthy - absolutely not. ALL opinions, remarks, and comments would STILL be treated equally, regardless of which avatar a member has or how many posts are listed in their profile.

If someone DID try to "tout their clout" because of a special avatar, I'm sure Ziroc would handle the problem immediately.

As I said earlier, I would be included in the "Have Nots", because I simply can't contribute every month. That certainly doesn't make me feel any less important as a member here and I would not be bothered by the avatars of the "Haves" that made an ongoing commitment to Ziroc. More power to them and thank you for helping keep IronWorks up and running for ALL of us.

Finally, I think it is shameful that members would threaten to leave IronWorks if this supposed "caste system" were initiated. I include myself in this. I was trying to say that I would stop visiting Ironworks if - and only if - I had to pay for the privilege, but I deeply regret saying even that.

I am especially disappointed that a moderator would threaten to leave Ironworks over this decision. Ziroc is faced with a very difficult dilemma and it is extremely unfair to force him to choose between rewarding monthly contributers (in a very nominal way) or losing a moderator.

OK, RANT mode is off and the barbarian flambe' can now begin.

I understand that I am in the minority on this issue and I support any decision Ziroc makes. I also understand - and respect - the opposing viewpoints that have been voiced, I just disagree with them.

A two-tiered system would DESTROY Ironworks. Can you see some of the teens asking thier parents for money to donate to a website so they could have a better "avatar"? Can you see someone having to explain to thier wife/husband they have to pay $10/month or even a year to be a "full" member. Thats why there are so many objections Cerek. Elitism sucks, we dont need it here. I dont mean this as a flame Cerek, just posting my postition on the issue

You just have to understand Cerek, that uplifting certain contributing members above others will eventually cause animosity and jealousy amongst other members who were not able to donate, watching everyone croon over their new Avatar or whatever, knowing they won't ever have that limelight cause they don't have the cash. It is inevitable, competition between all of us RPGers is always going to be there. For the record, I have donated substantially twice, and also contributed to Ziroc's wedding gift, but never felt the need to post or brag about it for some kind of status, nor felt I needed to be rewarded above others because I donated. I donated because I wanted TO HELP, simple as that. My reward was this forum continuing to exist, and improved as well. I think those posts made by MANY members against this Elite membership through paying are valid, I see what they mean and where they are coming from. Not to say I will not continue to donate as I have done before in the past, but I don't want to overshadow anyone with any special attention towards me because I have done so. Concern for those that may feel left out, that don't have money to spend to donate, is what is mainly on my mind re this subject right now.

Ironworks is a business? Not in my definition, it isn't. Sorry, Cerek, I disagree, but I guess that's part of the beauty of IW, we can agree to disagree. And we didn't even throw vegetables at each other! :D

BTW, we had a similar discussion about 'special titles' a long time ago and the consensus was that it would be 'elitist' and cause envy and discomfort.

But I think now is the time to figure out what we can do to raise the needed funds in a way that WON'T be divisive.. and if you saw the replies here then you know such a scheme would be controversial to say the least! I mean look at how strongly both sides reacted! [img]smile.gif[/img]

PS: Nobody 'threatened' to leave, Cerek. As best I am aware, they voiced their HONEST feelings about something that obviously bothered them a great deal. Frankly even if I did donate in such a fashion as to merit a 'special' avatar, I think I'd decline. You know, I'd think you would understand the notion of giving for the sake of giving and not for the attention.... All I know is that when I give to a cause it is for the cause and not to be noticed or get 'recognition', maybe it's my religious background, or maybe it's just a whole different way of looking at the world, who knows? Again, I will just agree that we disagree and try to find something fun to post to for a while! :D

[ 05-08-2002, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: Cloudbringer ]

Barbarion flambe' will never happen here at IW. I will personally see to this. ;)

Cerek, You just seem to have missed the point.

I donated for the new server - actually I donated quite a lot of money, more than I could afford really. I didn't do it because I wanted recognition. I got a private thank-you, which was nice, but quite frankly I'd have been *embarrassed* to be singled out as a donor when other people wanted to donate but couldn't.

If you look back on Ziroc's thread where he asked for donations originally, you will see a whole heap of people posting very sincere and genuine apologies because they couldn't donate. People who felt bad about it.

I would have felt dreadful if my name had been paraded about in public, in front of all those people who felt bad about not being able to donate.

And IMO, anyone who feels it would be OK to do that doesn't have a shred of common decency or tact. Make of that what you will. I'm just telling it like I see it.

Dang! And here I thought it would mean seeing two barbarians running amok in their loincloths ;) [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img]

Ahem.. sorry.. steam is off topic.. but hehehe... my mind wandered! LOL

Ziroc:

DiabloRex already mentioned this, but I'd like to lend my [img]graemlins/twocents.gif[/img]

Cafe Press offers a service where they will imprint merchandise (shirts, caps, boxers, coffee mugs, mousepads, etc) with your artwork and logo. They will handle the orders on their site, handle the transactions through credit cards, Paypal, and checks and money orders. They produce and ship on demand, so IW wouldn't get hit with inventory costs or large orders. They will drop ship the order to the client for you. You sit back and get a check monthly. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] TRUE, they get a base fee for the merchadise, but YOU get to set the retail price, YOU choose your markup. They charge you about $15.00 for a shirt, and the site gets a profit of 2-3 dollars apiece.
The quality is top-notch. I've order mugs and shirts through them before, from some of my favorite sites. [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]
I'd definately look into it...