Starting a separate thread on this. It grows out of the US perspective thread.

Some people basically voiced the old sentiment of "Love It or Leave It" in that thread. Apparently they were disturbed by criticisms of the US from Americans, and dusted off the old rhetoric about how criticisms meant those Americans didn't appreciate how their fathers and grandfathers and great great great grandfathers died for their freedom, etc.

Well, as an American critical of many aspects of US culture and government, I've got news for you. *Activates Rant Mode*

I LOVE this land I was born in, and which my family has lived since Colonial times. I love living in it, studying it, exploring it, learning about it, and participating in it. I love it SO MUCH, that I absolutely REFUSE to stand by, deaf and dumb and blind, while others destroy it! You got that?!? I love it so much I will not abandon it and flee somewhere else, but will stay and fight for it! I love it so much I will not ignore its problems! I love it so much I will not stick my head in the sand and pretend everything is just fine! I love it so much I will not fiddle while it burns down around me! I love it so much that I will search intensely for the causes of the problems, and root them out! I love it too much to sit back and watch it die, either here or in some far away other place!

"America, Love it or Leave It!" What a sick joke!

Try loving it so much that you do something about its problems instead!

*Deactivates Rant Mode*

Wow ......... my thoughts exactly ............ you definately have a gift with words ...... you have my depest respect .... http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif

Hi Dio...still same old you, I see! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif Oh, have I mentioned I'm pleased as punch to see you here at Ironworks? Well, I am!http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

I do agree that we should be able to disagree with things here in the good ol' USA, but I often find myself taking the opposite stand if I hear her being too denigrated. Still I might do that for ANY place/person/thing I feel strongly about.

I am not a heavily political person, just not my nature. But I have opinions and I do voice them from time to time. I don't necessarily think I'm going to change the world by doing so. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif But maybe a a piece of it will move to my side...LOL, which is often the middle of the road!

No, don't leave for those reasons. Yes stand by your convictions, by all means, but always remember that we may THINK we are a hundred percent right but can always be wrong or *gasp* partially so. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif

CloudThinker

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Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
Storm-Queen
Raven's Cloud
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."

http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/biglaugh.gif One of the things that really makes America great is that the people can actually effect change. Some times its a good change some times not but the people still have that ability...for now....lest we let congress and government "protect us from ourselves".

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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

That would probably be the way I feel about Germany - IF such thinking weren't considered Nazi. As it is, I really like living in Germany, but America has definite advantadges too. I like both countries, but I will not stop critizising them or take everything in it at face value. Is that something like what you mean, Diogenes? (No you're posting quite clearly its just been a long day and I'm tired so I didn't understand all of what you said)

EDIT: Oops, I just realized that I accidentally accused you of being Nazis http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/FRblush.gif Sorry. I hope you all realize the way I mean it.
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I am the great Kazara

[This message has been edited by Kaz (edited 09-07-2001).]

Being wrong is for lesser mortals http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

Seriously, I agree totally that one should keep an open mind and be prepared to change one's own if the evidence so dictates. In my 35 years on this planet, I have changed my views quite a bit on serious matters in light of new experiences and information.

Kaz, yes, that is what I meant. Love for a country should not blind you to its faults. Love for a country does not mean you should deny the problems that do exist. Love for a country, imo, means that you should be willing to face those problems honestly and openly, with the ultimate objective of solving them.

Thanx, I needed to read this Diogenes!

Mark

I agree mostly with you here only disagree about the part of affecting change. The only way we can change is by mass complains and pitions, changing president doesn't affect much stateside because they only keep there campain promises at the end of there terms in order to get reelected. Also have you noticed only rich people have been US presidents?? So they really don't understand the bulk of the US most of the time.

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People are born and people die and yeat life goes on without a care.

Diogenes, you have a gift for clear statements, and I do believe you have hit this one on the head. I agree with you 100% concerning ones responsibility to make changes. When patriotism turns to chauvinism, one's ability to think clearly is diminished.
As a side note, I have seen the people who have given service in the armed forces used as tools for politicians. My father fought in WWII and received a distinguished service medal, yet he was utterly, adamantly opposed to the U.S. presence in Viet Nam. Although military service in and of itself is an honorable thing, the military is often used for dishonorable causes by politicians with no moral fiber.

Lesser mortals...hmmm... http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/tongue.gif Well I reserve the right to be wrong sometimes and to know you are! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif teehee

Yes, well, I've a few more years on you Dio, but same thing for me. I've learned that there's always another viewpoint and sometimes things are not black or white but fall in the grey zone. Then again, there are some things that do fit the black or white scenario. Hmmm.. I think if I keep going I'll argue myself around a few circles! HAHA..see why I avoid this sort of thing? LOL

Cloudy

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Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
Storm-Queen
Raven's Cloud
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."