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-   -   M&M and Wizardry (http://www.ironworksforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60852)

Sergey 10-23-2000 06:16 AM

I have been playing M&M series since 1991(MM3). And I will play M&M untill M&M loose turn-based comabt.

IMHO, all M&Ms are *GOOD* games(but M&M-6 was *EXCELLENT* and M&M-8 was just *BAD*), but are very limited as *RPG*. M&M doesn't have roleplay feel and has serious flaws in design, but has *very-very-very* addictive and easy gameplay. In contrast Wizardry series(let W&W will be the part of the seris) *does* have roleplay feel(partly feel, of course) and minimal flaws in design, has *very* addictive, but *difficult* gameplay(Wizardry-7 is *EXTREMELY DIFFICULT* to play). It's my(my friends too) opinion as M&M and Wizardry series gamers.

Ziggurat 10-30-2000 10:02 PM

I agree there is a big difference in Wiz and M&M games. Always has been. But mainly in style, not attitude. Early M&M were quite difficult but I like the new ones for different reasons. M&M2 was terrific but seemes dated, graphics wise, now. Ultima 4 ranked up there with M&M2, perhaps better, also poor graphics by todays standards. Wizardry 7 is still the best RPG in the old style, and had a few innovations of its own (Wiz 6 is a close follow up). I loved to change classes, probably overdid that thing. All of these games were difficult. Lost much time exploring and trying to decode riddles or solves mazes. Wizards and Warriors does follow in the same foot steps. They didn't have forums to cheat with in those old games. You kept trying everything, and talking to friends who played, and trying to enlist new friends who would try, etc. This game is a bit buggy but OK by me...

Proton 10-31-2000 04:20 AM

Am I the only one who liked Wiz6 more that 7? Man that game took me
over a year to finish. 'Course by the time I got to 7, I could go online
and read the walkthrough for Bane. Mabey thats why I liked #6, I had to figure the damn thing out on my own...

Kenwyn 10-31-2000 06:08 AM

I must not be as critical or demanding as the rest of you. I've enjoyed ALL the M&M and Wizardry games. I also liked both Ultima Undergrounds, Anvil of Dawn, both Elder Scrolls, the Eye of the Beholder series and the first Dungeon Master. I did not like Baldur's Gate or Fallout.

Ziggurat 10-31-2000 06:05 PM

I liked Anvil of Dawn somewhat and Eye of Beholder #1 quite alot. I'm one of those who don't much get into the isometric (top-down or 3/4) view but I know that is just a matter of taste. I also remember an old (top view) one called Legend (I think) that was great. Towards the end you flew a golden swan (dragon?) thing across the continent. Early 90's. Lands of Lore #1 was great as well. In response to Proton's view of Wiz 6, I agree in some ways it was as good as Wiz 7 but the story line wasn't as consistent (although some would say it was more surprising, they dropped the nudity in Wiz 7). It was a bear to map, I don't think it had automapping. I played Wiz 7 three times but played Wiz 7 more like 5 or 6 times. W&W I'm not sure about yet.

Ziggurat 10-31-2000 06:11 PM

Actually, now that I think of it, it was not called Legend. It was Fairy Tale Adventure.

Kate 10-31-2000 06:55 PM

I have all the M&M games, I think they are great. I also have all the Baldurs Gate stuff, Torment, Daggerfall and Redguard (I must admit I haven't really played Redguard). I tried Wizardry Gold once at a friends house, thought it looked interesting but dated and never got it. I have never seen any other Wizardry games in the shops (I live in the UK so we don't get everything here). how old are Wizardry 6 and 7? Are they still available at all?
I find W & W similar to M & M in some ways but W & W seems to have some flaws and bugs which are quite frustrating.
Both are quite addictive though. I waste hours playing these games!

RPG-guy 10-31-2000 08:57 PM

W&W is buggy but still fun to play. With all the different roles you can assume you are always looking for that new level to reach to get some of those oh so appealing skills, traits and characteristics. And hats off to their level designers. So far the crypt, serpent dungeon, stout mines,(Well maybe the mines got to be a bit tedious),Shurgeon Castle, Boogres Hole, Dragon Spire, the woods are all wonderful places to play in. And I don't think I have ever heard better voice acting in a CRPG.

As far as M&M vs Wizardry, well Wizardry was the first CRPG I played(as well as the second) but M&M has a special place in my heart. M&M's even the poor ones ( are built in such a way that you just have to finish them. I never did finish Wiz 3 and Wiz 7 (computer crash 2/3 of the way through), but all M&M's have been played and conquered. In the Wizardry series (and W&W) the fun is in the role play, going up a level, getting a new stat, getting a better weapon. But most of the M&M's also seem to have a better story and the story seems more tied into the game play. And those M&M colors. Those guys at New World use a different palate than just about any other CRPG. Where eveyone else is into greens and browns, M&M uses orange and blues and pinks. The M&M colors feel like a fantasy world. Not to mention their lush musical scores.

M&M wasn't the first, full graphic CRPG (Bards Tale of which I also love) but it was far deeper than Bards Tale. However for me the Computer RPG's reached their nadir with Land of Lore ONE. And yes I know that LOL2 and LOL3 ruined a potentially great franchise. So while I will play W&W 2,3,4 and Wiz 8,9,10; My vote has to go to the M&M series.

Wyvern 11-01-2000 10:14 AM

CRPGs - they've come a long long way! I've been playing CRPGs since the 80's. I have stacks of maps that I carefully made along with a number of walkthrus I wrote for many, many games (including Wiz 6 Bane). I don't really have a favorite though I still have great fondness for Wiz 1, 2 & 3. They were fun to replay which I can't say for some of today's games. M&M6 looked like it was going to be a great favorite until I came upon a fatal bug which prevented me ever finishing the game. Some of the more recent games seemed to have gotten just too big, too many things to do, too many things to remember. The games have improved in adding ways to keep track of quests and automap features. The environments are so much superior to the first CRPGs. Anyone played M&M 1 and remember how the "landscape" was actually presented as four wall boxes everywhere you went? What a difference to be able to swim through W&W underground city!
Other old games of note: Phantasm, Magic Candle, Wizard's Stone - Anyone remember those??
Least favorite CRPG series: Ultima
Wyv


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