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-   -   Discussion on why these attacks took place and what its purpose was. (http://www.ironworksforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70057)

Memnoch 09-11-2001 01:25 PM

Discussion on why these attacks took place and what its purpose was.
 
OK, now I've had a few hours to absorb what's just happened in the US. As an expatriate American now living in Sydney, my heart goes out to all the people who lost relatives and friends. I myself have an aunt who lives in Manhattan and a number of friends that live and work around the Wall Street/Battery Park area. My sister works for Salomon Smith Barney (investment bankers) who until recently were located at the WTC (they recently relocated to Tribeca). My sister worked at the WTC till a year and a half ago when she relocated to Sydney which I am eternally grateful for.

I am starting this thread as a discussion thread for all of us to try and make sense out of this (senseless) attack on America. I realize it's a very emotional subject but please, no flaming or racial/hate attacks on others in this thread, ok? http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

The question now has to be asked: why was this done? What were the perpetrators expecting to get out of this? What was the motivation behind their attack? There are a number of facts that I will outline for you:

- cost of executing this attack must have been considerable
- the professionalism in executing was very high, to be able to coordinate hijacking different aircraft and bringing them to bear near-simultaneously
- the US was caught totally off-guard, with NO intelligence that this was about to happen

The following groups have been mooted as possible suspects (UNCONFIMED):

- Islamic Jihad
- Hamas/Hezbollah
- Taliban
- Osama Bin Laden

Blame has already started to be laid at the Palestinians' door, but I for one find it very difficult to believe that the upper echelons of the Palestinian authority would condone such an attack. It makes no sense whatsoever and they cannot hope to gain anything from being remotely associated with it. In fact they will lose a lot of leverage as a result of this, irrespective of their involvement.

Bin Laden sounds like a more credible suspect. He's tried it once before and he has the resources and the command/control experience to do it. He may have used a number of smaller groups to execute the actual sub-operations. The question is: why? What are the perpetrators trying to accomplish here? Who stands to benefit the most from this tragedy?

Your thoughts would be welcome as long as they are put forward in a reasonable, civilized and sensible manner. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

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Avatar 09-11-2001 01:35 PM

I think the history of such an well organised attack goes back a long way. This isn't some amateur plot to wreck havoc. The FBI, CIA and Israeli Itel have warned for the past 1 year about the possibility of a large scale terrorist attack on US establishments. Following the attack on the US destroyer, this is better planned and far more devastating. This has to have inside help to have escaped unsuspected. The attacks are executed professionally and is a time-delayed fashion to cause maximum casulaty, humiliation, publicity, and shock. I hate to say this, but it's very effective. I in no way support this, but it is by far the most organised attack. As for which groups, I would pick a rich well organised fanatical group.

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adam warlock 09-11-2001 01:38 PM

I could say this:
we still would be surprised if we DO find out who's responsible

skywalker 09-11-2001 01:40 PM

Oh, I hate to say I agree with you, Adam! I hope my thoughts are wrong, but they will forever be kept to myself.

Mark

Legolas the Elven Archer 09-11-2001 01:41 PM

I think it would be bst to wait until there's more information. Today has been very hectical and I believe it is important to process the information and wait until we've heard some numbers before we start pointing fingers. I'll come back here later.

Until then, a theory:
It's all a hoax so that Bush has an excuse to bomb palestina and afghanistan. All the networks have been bribed and people were hired to create a simulation of the collapse of the WTC.

NOT

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Avatar 09-11-2001 01:42 PM

I think the US WILL find the real or scapegoats.

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Moni 09-11-2001 01:45 PM

I can only mention that it seems to be some coincidence that president Bush "just happened" to be in FL when all this took place and that the airspace around the pentagon is supposed to be closed airspace.
Whether outside forces were physically responsible for the devastation, I cannot help but wonder what inside forces had a hand in the playing of a political game.
A game in which no ones lives but the very highest in rank are considered to be of any importance.

Just my two cents.

I am already "marked" as a radical in this country...why should I be afraid of speaking my mind?

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[This message has been edited by Moni (edited 09-11-2001).]

Moridin 09-11-2001 01:45 PM

There are intel reports that Bin Laden announced, through a video tape, that "It was time to hit the US and Isreal". Apparently this tape was made around June. It is also known that he has been training people in plane hijacking techniques.

The thing that amazes me is that the hijacked planes were all departing from major US airports (Dulles in DC, Logan in Boston, and Newark, NJ)...to hijack 1 plane (let alone 4) is nearly impossible...the forces behind these attacks (like Memnoch said) had to be very well funded and trained.

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Moridin 09-11-2001 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moni:
I can only mention that it seems to be some coincidence that president Bush "just happened" to be in FL when all this took place and that the airspace around the pentagon is supposed to be closed airspace.
Whether outside forces were physically responsible for the devastation, I cannot help but wonder what inside forces had a hand in the playing of a political game.
A game in which no ones lives but the very highest in rank are considered to be of any importance.

Just my two cents.

I am already "marked" as a radical in this country...why should I be afraid of speaking my mind?


Actually Moni, the Pentagon is in the flight-path for Washington National Airport. A plane would only have to veer off course a slight distance (and at the last minute) to hit the Pentagon. The White house and Capital Bldg are not in any commercial airline flight path.

Just clarifying http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif


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Avatar 09-11-2001 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moni:
I can only mention that it seems to be some coincidence that president Bush "just happened" to be in FL when all this took place and that the airspace around the pentagon is supposed to be closed airspace.
Whether outside forces were physically responsible for the devastation, I cannot help but wonder what inside forces had a hand in the playing of a political game.
A game in which no ones lives but the very highest in rank are considered to be of any importance.

Just my two cents.

I am already "marked" as a radical in this country...why should I be afraid of speaking my mind?


I got rebucked for saying things like that! Husshhhh.. I think Memmnoch's coming. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

Lord of Alcohol 09-11-2001 02:06 PM

The very idea Bush orchestrated this calamity is completely absurd.

[This message has been edited by Lord of Alcohol (edited 09-11-2001).]

skywalker 09-11-2001 02:08 PM

The thing to watch more closely is how this horrific incident is used by our beloved politicians.

Mark

Cloudbringer 09-11-2001 02:10 PM

I must preface this- I'm sad, profoundly sad, and in shock. I know Hugh is ok, but have no word on other friends there. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/frown.gif

Whatever terrorist group or government is responsible may or may not take the credit. Thing is, if any group does, they know they will be hunted down, no holds barred, and prosecuted. They may be domestic or foreign, we just don't know yet.

NO, I do not suspect any US Government conspiracy to kill thousands of it's own people!! And Bush needs to stay focused, this is a CATASTROPHE of great magnitude. I heard reported by a correspondent traveling with him that his eyes were red- apparently he'd cried. God Bless all officials who must make the decisions now. It is a tragic time for everyone involved, but the burdens for them will be great for some time to come.

I don't know who did this, but I do know they have no care for life, their own or anyone elses. Several of them died in the attacks. I guess they figured it was a small number, worth the dying ... but to me, all the dead are to be mourned.

I'm sure the Towers and the Pentagon were chosen as symbolic targets. If any more are hit, they will no doubt also be symbolic. Whoever did it, chose them to make a point or several. America is NOT immune to terorism. We have long thought we couldn't see such things on our soil, but we have been shocked awake and I think our lives will never be the same again. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/frown.gif

Cloudy

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Neb 09-11-2001 02:11 PM

Yes it is, Bush would be too dumb to do such a thing.

Even though the palestinians might not have done it, they certainly seem willing to have done it, even though their leader sent his condolences to America, the population cheered when they heard the news that the WTC had been attacked, maybe they funded the operation and/or sheltered the terrorists?

MagiK 09-11-2001 02:11 PM

Untill the parties responsible stand up and identify themselves or are identified I think that it is impossible to know the answers to this question.



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Memnoch 09-11-2001 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Avatar:
I got rebucked for saying things like that! Husshhhh.. I think Memmnoch's coming. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif
I rebuked you not for saying what you said (as you are entitled to your opinion) but for saying it at the wrong time and in the wrong thread. Commonsense, mate! Would you have cracked that joke at a bar in Texas when the news of the tragedy was filtering through? Methinks not. Time and place for everything. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

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Kaz 09-11-2001 02:14 PM

I don't think Moni meant that Bush orchestrated the attacks. I think she meant that he knew that something was going to happen and arranged to be in Florida that day. He had no idea it was going to be so large-scale, though. I'm for Bin Laden. You're right, Memnoch, it would make no sense at all for Palestina to organize this - they'd know that they'd be the first suspects and would be dealing with some serious retribution. This thing was very well organized, and Bin Laden must've known about it if not organized it - it would be a bit too big a coincedence for TWO big attacks on America to be scheduled around the same time, or?

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Moni 09-11-2001 02:15 PM

Moridin,
Thank you for that clarification.

Avatar,
Yes, I just promised MajiK that I would be more careful of what I say...too late for this post and too late to edit now that it has been quoted but I promise I'll try not to say anything else that may anger anyone.

LoA,
It has been known to happen in the past...I did not say that it is the absolute reson behind it, nor did I say that Bush orchestrated it, but you can't deny that it is a possibility. I cannot say anymore without causing others offense...I promised.

Mark,
You are absolutely right.

I would like to end up knowing later on that I am completely wrong right now.

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[This message has been edited by Moni (edited 09-11-2001).]

skywalker 09-11-2001 02:16 PM

MagiK.

I wonder if anyone will take responsibility. Can they be so crazy or proud of themselves to actually stand up and be counted for this terrorist act. I see no reason for anyone to want to take on the full force of the Armed Forces of the USA. I wonder if they can truly resist telling the world.

Mark

Moridin 09-11-2001 02:20 PM

It may be a long shot, but I think we could find out a lot from the "flight-data recorders" or black boxes, if they can (or are ever) found. I don't believe that the cockpits of any of those planes were quite...If any info is to come out on who did this I think it will come from these items.

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Lord Shield 09-11-2001 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moni:
I can only mention that it seems to be some coincidence that president Bush "just happened" to be in FL when all this took place and that the airspace around the pentagon is supposed to be closed airspace.
Whether outside forces were physically responsible for the devastation, I cannot help but wonder what inside forces had a hand in the playing of a political game.
A game in which no ones lives but the very highest in rank are considered to be of any importance.


The Internet has a lot of conspiracy theories running around at the moment. I find such things funny as there it is pure supposition and has no real proof behind it. My advice would be to forget such things. They can only lead to paranoia

The funniest one I saw was some people claiming it wsa planned in order to raise popularity for the Space Shuttle program ~rolls eyes~-


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WOLFGIR 09-11-2001 02:30 PM

OKI, in the state of mind that Memnoch started here.. These are just specualations..

1. I think the attack was an attack to show that even smaller fundamentalist/or extremist anti-US and democracy countries of similiar minds are voulnerable.
Also this was meant to hurt US in their prime, the capaitalist head-town.

2. A reaction that has builed up during many years of hatred and war against the US. For example, the middle east extremists and US has been in and out of conflicts with each other. Numerous attacks has been made before.

3. A fanatic attack to unite and encourage more similiar attacks against the western world. Some Islamic (Bin Laden for example) has said in interbiews that all of Islam should jopin in and attack and go to war to US and its allies. I.E alot of democratic countries.

OK, these are just speculations that first comes to mind. ANother idea might also be the Tallibabs that have US as their "satan" as well. I hope you read my post as a speculation. The word Islam appears here, and I want you to know that I aim my speculations to thoose fanatics and extremists their.

ALso again. I´m so sorry US for this. It is a blow to the face of democratic worlds that leads a war against terrorsim. My thoughts are with you this terrible day.

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Throntar 09-11-2001 02:32 PM

IMHO, the most likely culprit right now is bin Laden. There is an Arab newspaper that has been reporting out of London that Laden has stated that he will be orchestrating an attack on America of a magnitude never before seen (or something to that effect). He has been, and continues to be, public enemy #1 in the U.S. He seems to hate Americans for being a part of the "Great Satan". Apparently he sees us as the root of all evils in the world and oppressors of Islam/supporters of Judaism. I really don't think that a wack job (a very intelligent wack-job, but still nuts...)like Laden needs any more reason than that to commit such a vast atrocity. As for his folks...they seem to feel that if they die by killing Americans (the so-called "enemies" of Allah), then they are dying in the service of Allah and will therefore be rewarded with everlasting life in his realm.

Here's what I see happening soon... I really don't see our Commander-in-Chief reacting to this act of atrocity in a calm and rational manner. As bin Laden has apparently been hiding in Afghanistan for some time...I fully expect Afghanistan to be reduced to rubble in a matter of a couple of weeks. I do not doubt that we already have carriers and frigates loaded up with Marines on their way to the closest port. I'm also forseeing a couple of Army heavy brigades being dropped in-country and mowing down everything in their way.

That's just my take...but I think that it is feasible. Someone will pay...and whether they are the culpable party or not, the Taliban controlled Afghanistan will most likely suffer the consequences of harboring bin Laden.

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skywalker 09-11-2001 02:36 PM

John McCain was on ABC news and he intimated that it may be bin Laden and he said we would go to war with whatever country (Afgahnistan) harbours him (if he is responsible).

Mark

Kaz 09-11-2001 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lord Shield:
The Internet has a lot of conspiracy theories running around at the moment. I find such things funny as there it is pure supposition and has no real proof behind it. My advice would be to forget such things. They can only lead to paranoia

The funniest one I saw was some people claiming it wsa planned in order to raise popularity for the Space Shuttle program ~rolls eyes~-


It's less than six hours since the attack (it seems like years) and already crazy conspiracy theories have sprung up. The internet grapevine must be buzzing.

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Billikins the Bold 09-11-2001 02:37 PM

Firstly my condolences to all affected by this.

Whoever did this presumably had their own pilots along: I really can't see how you would get a pilot to crash into the world trade centre under duress: if he knew he was going to die, surely he'd ditch the plane in the river.

To me this highlights the possibility of state backing: finding four airline pilots would be difficult for a terrorist group. Could be wrong though: could be that four "pilots" were traind up to a minimal level. I just don't know.

As to Bush? Nah! Having said that (and I honestly don't believe, in a million years that he would even consider it) the finger of suspicion has long pointed at the Russian intelligence services in connection with the mysterious "Chechen" explosions that killed 100's of people in Russian tower blocks shortly before the second Chechen war that co-incidently saw Putin elected.

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Rikard 09-11-2001 02:37 PM

A VERY VERY Unlikely conspirery theory which i have though up to
was Extreemist Israëlic Terrorist wanting to put the blame on Hamas in order to create hatred towards Palastina and sympathy to the Israëlic Cause

How likely would this be????

BTW Mario

Bin-Laden is the leader of Taliban

About the Inside theory
Knowuing the amerikans
they would not ever kill another amerikan
Even not if they want a war and this were the only way to get it

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Moni 09-11-2001 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lord Shield:
The Internet has a lot of conspiracy theories running around at the moment. I find such things funny as there it is pure supposition and has no real proof behind it. My advice would be to forget such things. They can only lead to paranoia

The funniest one I saw was some people claiming it wsa planned in order to raise popularity for the Space Shuttle program ~rolls eyes~-



After investigations which took some time, it was concluded that the space shuttle program knew they were dealing with a faulty design and kept sending the shuttles up because nothing disasterous had yet happened. All of those people involved in the knowledge of the potential for disaster who did nothing to correct it (in order to keep costs low) because of the failure of any tragedies up to that point were all "relieved of their positions" within the space program.

I am sure that proper investigation will pinpoint the responsible parties if they are from foreign or domestic terrorist groups.



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Billikins the Bold 09-11-2001 02:40 PM

Bin Laden is *not* the leader of the Taliban. He *is* the leader of an extremely anit-American terror group and has (and may still) reside in Afghanistan but he is *not* the leader of the Taliban.

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skywalker 09-11-2001 02:43 PM

Hate to say it, but many people will do horrible things to the people of their own country for lots of money.

Look what happened in Oklahoma and he didn't do it for money.

Mark

Rikard 09-11-2001 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Billikins the Bold:
Bin Laden is *not* the leader of the Taliban. He *is* the leader of an extremely anit-American terror group and has (and may still) reside in Afghanistan but he is *not* the leader of the Taliban.


My Bad
really

thing is
the Taliban does cover up bin-laden and his organisation

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Rikard 09-11-2001 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by skywalker:
Hate to say it, but many people will do horrible things to the people of their own country for lots of money.

Look what happened in Oklahoma and he didn't do it for money.

Mark

The American govermant has no reason AT ALL to attack themselfs
What use would it be to attack a building that costs millions of dollars ???
than and the cost of lives is something that the US would never do to itselfs



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Here To Enlighten You

skywalker 09-11-2001 02:47 PM

I don't believe I said it was the government...there are many radical groups in America.

Mark

Billikins the Bold 09-11-2001 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rikard:
My Bad
really

thing is
the Taliban does cover up bin-laden and his organisation


True: the Taliban aren't a particularly nice group of people IMHO. Ironic that they were originally funded/armed by the US gov't...



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WOLFGIR 09-11-2001 02:49 PM

Rikard, I don´t think you can get that many Israelic suicide bombers actually..

Bin-Laden is not the leader of the Talibans, but close to them and has a training camp in Afghanistan and works together with a Taliban terrorist.

What talks for Bin-Laden is that he is a strong leader that could persuade so many to go on a collective suiced mission at once. That has never happened before.

BUt well.. speculations...
In times like these, we try do understand, no matter how close to the truth we will come. An important thing now is that all democratic countries start to work together more actively to work against terrorism, to try and prevent anything like this to happen again..

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Moni 09-11-2001 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by skywalker:
Hate to say it, but many people will do horrible things to the people of their own country for lots of money.

Look what happened in Oklahoma and he didn't do it for money.

Mark

Not always for money either, as long as they can make a point.
Its sad but true and it happens all over the world, not just here.
http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/frown.gif



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Sir_Tainly 09-11-2001 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Billikins the Bold:
Firstly my condolences to all affected by this.

Whoever did this presumably had their own pilots along: I really can't see how you would get a pilot to crash into the world trade centre under duress: if he knew he was going to die, surely he'd ditch the plane in the river.

To me this highlights the possibility of state backing: finding four airline pilots would be difficult for a terrorist group. Could be wrong though: could be that four "pilots" were traind up to a minimal level. I just don't know.

As to Bush? Nah! Having said that (and I honestly don't believe, in a million years that he would even consider it) the finger of suspicion has long pointed at the Russian intelligence services in connection with the mysterious "Chechen" explosions that killed 100's of people in Russian tower blocks shortly before the second Chechen war that co-incidently saw Putin elected.


Pilot training is no great issue here, essentially the bombers only had to take control of the plane at the last minute, the pilots could be forced to fly to a location under the impression they would not be killed if they complied, and then the terrorist could fly the plane into the building. Essentially piltoing is only difficult on take off / landing and in adverse conditions, flying in good weather into a building is a low order skill. Navigating however is trickier

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Gabriel 09-11-2001 03:15 PM

All I can say is it might not of been a well suported group, four people with guns, a little info' and the disire to do it is all it would of taken.

WOLFGIR 09-11-2001 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gabriel:
All I can say is it might not of been a well suported group, four people with guns, a little info' and the disire to do it is all it would of taken.
Good point. Takes only a few crazy people to destroy thousands of lives..



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Diogenes Of Pumpkintown 09-11-2001 03:30 PM

Obviously none of us know at this point who is responsible. However, the selection of targets was quite interesting.

On the world stage, the US is most dominant in two spheres -- economic and military. The two targets, the world trade center and the pentagon, were the two most central symbols of US might in those areas.


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