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Memnoch 08-09-2011 11:36 AM
London riots
 
They ain't happy in Pomland that's for sure. Hope our London based members are ok.

Quote:

LONDON—British Prime Minister David Cameron recalled Parliament from its summer recess Tuesday and nearly tripled the number of police on the streets after three days of rioting in London blossomed into a full-blown political crisis.

<iframe src='http://widget.newsinc.com/single.html?WID=2&VID=23500802&freewheel=90106&sit esection=bostonglobe' height='320' width='425' scrolling='no' frameborder='0' marginwidth='0' marginheight='0'></iframe>

Cameron described the scenes of burning buildings and smashed windows in London and several other British cities as "sickening," but refrained from more extreme measures such as calling in the military to help beleaguered police restore order.

Instead, he said 16,000 officers would be on the streets of the capital Tuesday night, almost tripling the number that were out Monday night.

"People should be in no doubt that we will do everything necessary to restore order to Britain's streets and to make them safe for the law-abiding," Cameron told reporters after rushing home from an Italian vacation to chair a crisis meeting at his Downing Street office.

A wave of violence and looting has raged across London since Saturday, as authorities struggled to contain the country's worst unrest since race riots set the capital ablaze in the 1980s.

Some 525 arrests have been made in London alone and dozens were arrested in other cities. Police announced Tuesday that plastic bullets would be "one of the tactics" available to officers to quell the riots.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/eur...sis/?page=full
Also, apparently these rioters are Democrats in disguise!

Quote:
Dozens of people attacked shops in Birmingham's main retail district, and clashed with police in Liverpool and Bristol.

"This is the uprising of the working class. We're redistributing the wealth," said Bryn Phillips, a 28-year-old self-described anarchist, as young people emerged from a store with chocolate bars and ice cream cones.
:rolleyes:

Chewbacca 08-09-2011 01:42 PM
Re: London riots
 
Sounds like the cops are pulling out all the stops. Stay safe people!

SpiritWarrior 08-09-2011 01:45 PM
Re: London riots
 
Thank god they got the chocolate and ice-cream.

Memnoch 08-09-2011 02:40 PM
Re: London riots
 
Biggest mover on Amazon.co.uk - baseball bats. This from a country that doesn't even play baseball!

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/at...1&d=1312910703

Micah Foehammer 08-09-2011 02:48 PM
Re: London riots
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Memnoch (Post 1246841)
Biggest mover on Amazon.co.uk - baseball bats. This from a country that doesn't even play baseball!

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/at...1&d=1312910703
That's not a good sign.

What set the riots off? I thought I read something about the someone living in a low income housing project being killed by UK police. (Very vague I know) Or was that the 1985 incident?

Edit: Nevermind the last bit. BBC news website FINALLY came back online.

Mr Duggan, 29, whose death sparked the first riots in Tottenham, died from a single bullet wound, an inquest heard.
Mr Duggan, a father of four, was shot in Ferry Lane, Tottenham, north London, on Thursday, as specialist firearms officers attempted to make an arrest.

John D Harris 08-09-2011 03:01 PM
Re: London riots
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micah Foehammer (Post 1246842)
That's not a good sign.

What set the riots off? I thought I read something about the someone living in a low income housing project being killed by UK police. (Very vague I know) Or was that the 1985 incident?
From what I've read the Police claim he was a gang leader/drug dealer who got into a shoot out with them and was killed the rioters claim he was a father of 4...

Micah Foehammer 08-09-2011 03:09 PM
Re: London riots
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John D Harris (Post 1246845)
From what I've read the Police claim he was a gang leader/drug dealer who got into a shoot out with them and was killed the rioters claim he was a father of 4...
Might want to wait for the Police Inquest report on this JD. BBC is reporting the following:

No evidence as yet that the gun was fired.
No mention of a gang/drug link.
Duggan's firearm was NOT a replica and was illegal.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14459516

I'm going to wait for a few more facts to come in.

SpiritWarrior 08-09-2011 09:53 PM
Re: London riots
 
Lord Sugar needs to sort out this mess. 4th night in a row. From what I see they're just destructive youths looking for trouble and/or free stuff.

Kakero 08-10-2011 12:22 AM
Re: London riots
 
Bah! I was bloody piss off because of england vs netherland's match was called off. I really wanted to see how tom cleverly will peform at senior international stage. I hope he will be call up by capello some other times.

Now this is funny....
http://i.imgur.com/mldiu.jpg

SpiritWarrior 08-10-2011 12:33 AM
Re: London riots
 
Those dirty blagards.

John D Harris 08-10-2011 12:13 PM
Re: London riots
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micah Foehammer (Post 1246846)
Might want to wait for the Police Inquest report on this JD. BBC is reporting the following:

No evidence as yet that the gun was fired.
No mention of a gang/drug link.
Duggan's firearm was NOT a replica and was illegal.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14459516

I'm going to wait for a few more facts to come in.
That's probibly a good Idea, to wait, things happened and are happening pretty fast. What I had read was from the first report, and just passing it on. I've since seen and read several that mentioned drug/gang links, and a later report that he didn't fire, or that they couldn't find a gun. So waiting for the Offical Inquest looks like a real good idea.

Memnoch 08-10-2011 02:40 PM
Re: London riots
 
People are starting to stick the boot into the Poms. Here's an opinion piece from Australia.

Quote:
Widespread policy failures have bred a feral British underclass

Paul Sheehan
August 11, 2011 - 12:20AM

Piccadilly Circus. Last year. Late afternoon. Packed streets. A young man, English, white, skinny, comes up to me and asks for money.

I shake my head and say just one word: ''No.''

His eyes narrow and he responds: ''Foreign c---.''

Why did it take so long for the menace within Britain to manifest itself more clearly? There are many places in many English cities to which I do not want to go and my friends who live in Britain do not want to go.

Places where the British underclass has incubated over generations of failed policy, behind inviolate barriers of class and social immobility, and home to a feral, fertile, fourth-generation welfare population.

Compared with its European peer group, Britain is off the charts on many measures of social dysfunction. Its rate of teenage pregnancy is almost three times the average for the other large advanced economies in western Europe - Germany, France, Italy, Spain and the Netherlands.

According to the European Commission, Britain has the highest number of violent crimes per capita in western Europe, and far more than its peer group of large economies.

Britain was the most violent nation in western Europe when it had a Labour government that was debasing the Treasury with social spending. So this violence goes much deeper than the spending cuts made by the coalition government digging Britain out from under a debt mountain.

One young friend, currently visiting from Scotland, where she attends university, told me she avoids the ''neds'' that plague the country. I'd never heard the term. It means ''no education delinquents''.

In many ways, the violence on the streets of British cities is no more than a new variation on an old theme. How long have English and Scottish football fans been feared around Europe for the violence they brought to games? Decades.

I've seen more violence and felt more menace attending half a dozen big football matches in England and Scotland than I've ever seen attending league, union and gridiron matches in Australia and the US.

Where, you might ask, are the parents of the young men in hoodies who have been goading police, looting stores and throwing bottles at ambulances in front of TV cameras? Why do the police look so tentative and impotent in the face of provocation? Why is the Home Secretary banging on about police work being about ''consent''? This is not just a social failure, it is a policy failure.

This pot has been simmering for a long time. The Coalition government inherited a mess from Gordon Brown. Thirteen years of big-spending Labour governments under Tony Blair and Brown, at a time when they should have been weather-proofing the budget during growth years, left Britain running a budget deficit comparable with that of Greece. The coalition inherited Britain's largest budget deficit and national debt outside wartime, driven by social spending which perpetuated a welfare economy.

Prime Minister David Cameron's coalition has since ground the budget deficit down from 10.4 per cent of GDP to about 8.3 per cent this financial year, and held Britain's sovereign debt to 77 per cent of GDP (compared with 2 per cent for Australia and 100 per cent for the US), but the stress of such necessary discipline is showing.

Much is made of the income inequality and social division in Britain, and it is real and unhealthy. But so, too, is the culture of welfare dependency.

A genuine attempt to break the destructive cycle is now under way by a former leader of the Tories, Iain Duncan Smith, in his role as Secretary of State for Work and Pensions.

He has committed to ending a destructive cycle where the poor face huge penalties for trying to get off benefits and into work.

In his key policy speech in May he said: ''A system that was originally designed to help support the poorest in society is now trapping them in the very condition it was supposed to alleviate. Instead of helping, a deeply unfair benefits system too often writes people off.

''The proportion of people parked on inactive benefits has almost tripled in the past 30 years to 41 per cent of the inactive working age population. That is a tragedy.''

It is also one of the root causes of the moral vacuum that burned a hole in Britain this week.

This story was found at: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politi...810-1imq6.html

SpiritWarrior 08-10-2011 04:31 PM
Re: London riots
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Memnoch (Post 1246868)
People are starting to stick the boot into the Poms. Here's an opinion piece from Australia.
Good article, very true imo.

John D Harris 08-11-2011 11:05 AM
Re: London riots
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritWarrior (Post 1246871)
Good article, very true imo.
Do you realize what the writer is saying... he's saying it's the big government nanny state giving stuff away to folks and them expecting it, that is the underlying problem.... Sounds exactly like what the Tea Party and Glenn Beck have been saying

Azred 08-11-2011 12:23 PM
Re: London riots
 
That is exactly where I was going, except John typed faster than I did.

If the United States continues on the path it currently is, we can see clearly where we will end up in 30 years by looking at Great Britain right now. If you see your neighbor making a horrible mistake and the consequences of that mistake, why on Earth would you want to make the same mistake?

The Nanny State may, in its beginning, free people from their cell of poverty, but it also strengthens and makes the prison more secure--they are left with the illusion of freedom, not the actuality.

SpiritWarrior 08-11-2011 01:26 PM
Re: London riots
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John D Harris (Post 1246877)
Do you realize what the writer is saying... he's saying it's the big government nanny state giving stuff away to folks and them expecting it, that is the underlying problem.... Sounds exactly like what the Tea Party and Glenn Beck have been saying
That the world is ending and he wants to pay absolutely no taxes whatsoever between now and then?
At what point will we see them switch to gold instead of GBP?

Chewbacca 08-11-2011 02:35 PM
Re: London riots
 
Blaming the government for the actions of individuals. I find that viewpoint to be erroneous.

Hate to tell y'all but the "tea party" wing of the GOP has grown to be chocked-full of nanny statists and border-line theocrats. Many of those folks in the GOP simply jumped on the band-wagon getting the most press.

Azred 08-11-2011 03:56 PM
Re: London riots
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewbacca (Post 1246883)
Hate to tell y'all but the "tea party" wing of the GOP has grown to be chocked-full of nanny statists and border-line theocrats. Many of those folks in the GOP simply jumped on the band-wagon getting the most press.
What color is the sky on your planet? Here on Earth the sky is blue.

The Tea Party has three problems at this time: 1) insufficient membership, 2) most of them are new so they have no political clout, and 3) no formal organization through which to further their goals.

There are currently no theocrats in Washington, D.C. Tea Party folks do not support the Nanny State; quite the contrary, if given the ability to do so many of them would quickly and gladly dismantle the Nanny State in its entirety.

Now....back to the riots in London.

I don't live in England so I can't say for certain if these folks really have anything about which to riot. I can't think that life there is in such a poor state that only one action kicks off a riot. They aren't being oppressed overtly...they aren't told how to dress or what to eat...they aren't forced to listen to or read only government propaganda...there aren't people starving by the thousands while some form of aristocracy blithely ignores their suffering...etc.

So why are people rioting? Because police shot a guy? If that were cause for a riot we would have them all the time here.

SpiritWarrior 08-11-2011 06:20 PM
Re: London riots
 
Omg if you want a good laugh look at the teaparty interviews on Youtube. Another issue is their obvious lack of education. Many have no idea what they're protesting. Worse, the ones who say they do sport signs that read things like "keep your government hands of my medicare", lol. I mean, granted if medicare is the issue for them chances are they are over 65 and get a pass for being doddering old people. Still, funny to watch.

SpiritWarrior 08-11-2011 06:26 PM
Re: London riots
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azred (Post 1246885)

So why are people rioting? Because police shot a guy? If that were cause for a riot we would have them all the time here.
It's very different in England. Here in the US rioters would be scared of getting shot by police. In the UK cops don't carry guns. I think if this happen in NY right now the military would be involved already and everyone would be locked down.

Also, these are kids who loiter around the streets all day and night. In the UK curfews aren't enforced like in the US. If you're walking the streets at night with your mates cops won't stop you unless you're commiting a crime. In the USA you will be stopped if you look under 18 I think? And these people have no cause - they're just hooligans looking for free tv's and destruction. How do I know? Because i'm ashamed to say those are the people I used to hang with growing up. Out of their minds teenagers.

John D Harris 08-11-2011 06:40 PM
Re: London riots
 
As opposed to someone who writes very true about an article about how it's government hand outs that have caused the problems.... yet all they can do is preach and side with the political party that wants to give out government handouts that they agree is causing the problems. But oppose at ever turn the political party that wants to LIMIT government handouts that are causing the problems.... Hmmm well, education and intellegence aren't the same thing and never will be.

ROTFLMAO, thanks for keeping me heathly

SpiritWarrior 08-11-2011 06:51 PM
Re: London riots
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John D Harris (Post 1246897)
As opposed to someone who writes very true about an article about how it's government hand outs that have caused the problems.... yet all they can do is preach and side with the political party that wants to give out government handouts that they agree is causing the problems. But oppose at ever turn the political party that wants to LIMIT government handouts that are causing the problems.... Hmmm well, education and intellegence aren't the same thing and never will be.

ROTFLMAO, thanks for keeping me heathly
Silly goose. The article isn't proposing taking welfare away. As much as you might want to translate these events into an opportunity to promote Glenn Beck or Sarah Palin, it just doesn't work.

John D Harris 08-11-2011 07:11 PM
Re: London riots
 
ROTFLMAO!!!!!Thanks you are really really really keeping me healthy.... Since you are doing your best to make fun of others and pointing out their... what was the term you used????? oh yeah lack of education... hmmm which part of LIMIT government handout means taking away welfare? Did you happen to learn that in school? Did you happen to learn that words have meanings? or did they go over that kind of stuff in the education you got?

SpiritWarrior 08-11-2011 07:32 PM
Re: London riots
 
Omg we have to be quick 'cuz once you see those "ROTFLMAO"s that means the vortex is opening!!!!111#$%

But okay, so where does the article propose limiting benefits?

John D Harris 08-11-2011 08:11 PM
Re: London riots
 
I didn't know you cared so much about my health. :P

SpiritWarrior 08-11-2011 08:20 PM
Re: London riots
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John D Harris (Post 1246902)
I didn't know you cared so much about my health. :P
That's what I thought, JD.

John D Harris 08-12-2011 12:08 AM
Re: London riots
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritWarrior (Post 1246903)
That's what I thought, JD.
that's you problem, your thinking.

SpiritWarrior 08-12-2011 12:35 AM
Re: London riots
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John D Harris (Post 1246908)
that's you problem, your thinking.
Noes, that's YOu problem.


Still waiting btw.

T-D-C 08-12-2011 01:43 AM
Re: London riots
 
And now for something from the lighter side of life

http://photoshoplooter.tumblr.com/

SpiritWarrior 08-12-2011 03:42 AM
Re: London riots
 
Well said.

Azred 08-12-2011 09:17 AM
Re: London riots
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritWarrior (Post 1246896)
It's very different in England. Here in the US rioters would be scared of getting shot by police. In the UK cops don't carry guns. I think if this happen in NY right now the military would be involved already and everyone would be locked down.

Also, these are kids who loiter around the streets all day and night. In the UK curfews aren't enforced like in the US. If you're walking the streets at night with your mates cops won't stop you unless you're commiting a crime. In the USA you will be stopped if you look under 18 I think? And these people have no cause - they're just hooligans looking for free tv's and destruction. How do I know? Because i'm ashamed to say those are the people I used to hang with growing up. Out of their minds teenagers.
Sometimes...even the police riot and loot here. There were some New Orleans police officers who were sentenced for looting in the wake of Katrina.

Yes, there are many city ordinances against teenagers being out late at night, especially while school is in session. This means they just congregate inside somewhere and get into trouble that way.

It's a shame that those people have no better outlet for their frustration than to riot. Rioting citizens is a clear sign of severe problems in society.

Micah Foehammer 08-12-2011 10:02 AM
Re: London riots
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azred (Post 1246914)
[color=lightgreen] There were some New Orleans police officers who were sentenced for looting in the wake of Katrina.
Some were charged and acquited - others suspended. I don't believe any NOPD were actually convicted and sentenced for looting.

AFAIK, there was only one suit filed against NOPD officers for looting and that resulted in an acquital - that was in 2006 IIRC. Two other instances of police looting, including the alleged theft of cars from a Cadillac dealership, may still pending. I think the car theft case might have been squashed as the NOPD Police claimed the cars were used for patrols in the storm aftermath.

There was a conviction (just recently) of 5 New Orleans police officers in the Danziger Bridge shooting which resulted in the shooting deaths of two men.

I still follow some of the news from NOLA but not a lot, so it's possible I missed something on the NOPD looting cases. Wouldn't surprise me if there were cases that I missed. NOPD is one of the most corrupt police departments in the country.

Always amazes me to listen to Ray "The Befuddled" Nagin when he gets on TV from time to time.

johnny 08-12-2011 11:12 AM
Re: London riots
 
Well, we seen it in France, where riots started after two (criminal) teenagers that were being chased by the police had the brilliant idea to hide inside a powerunit and electrocuted themselves, and now it was England's turn, again after the death of someone that was definitely never gonna get an award for finding the cure for cancer, now i'm just waiting for our turn, which is only a matter of time.

Chewbacca 08-12-2011 11:14 AM
Re: London riots
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by T-D-C (Post 1246911)
And now for something from the lighter side of life

http://photoshoplooter.tumblr.com/
LOL! That's how ya make lemonade outa life's lemons!

Azred 08-12-2011 12:40 PM
Re: London riots
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micah Foehammer (Post 1246917)
Some were charged and acquited - others suspended. I don't believe any NOPD were actually convicted and sentenced for looting.

AFAIK, there was only one suit filed against NOPD officers for looting and that resulted in an acquital - that was in 2006 IIRC. Two other instances of police looting, including the alleged theft of cars from a Cadillac dealership, may still pending. I think the car theft case might have been squashed as the NOPD Police claimed the cars were used for patrols in the storm aftermath.

There was a conviction (just recently) of 5 New Orleans police officers in the Danziger Bridge shooting which resulted in the shooting deaths of two men.

I still follow some of the news from NOLA but not a lot, so it's possible I missed something on the NOPD looting cases. Wouldn't surprise me if there were cases that I missed. NOPD is one of the most corrupt police departments in the country.

Always amazes me to listen to Ray "The Befuddled" Nagin when he gets on TV from time to time.
Perhaps the two stories had merged in the back of my mind. Still...as you note, they are examples of a police department not living up to our expectations.

SpiritWarrior 08-12-2011 01:06 PM
Re: London riots
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azred (Post 1246914)
Sometimes...even the police riot and loot here. There were some New Orleans police officers who were sentenced for looting in the wake of Katrina.

Yes, there are many city ordinances against teenagers being out late at night, especially while school is in session. This means they just congregate inside somewhere and get into trouble that way.

It's a shame that those people have no better outlet for their frustration than to riot. Rioting citizens is a clear sign of severe problems in society.
Yeah, I know America has had some riots. They're usually quelled pretty quick though. Those immigration riots more recently iirc. Not sure if cops looting aren't just dirty cops.

I think riots can be a good thing. Doomed is a country that is too scared to fight back. And as we've seen on TV this year, they serve as a quick way to get the attention of your government. It's just here the UK these riots don't seem to be about anything, lol. Nobody is protesting a regime, or demanding freedom that they are denied. Like I said, it mostly consists now of an underclass of kids just who are bored. More stupid are the reporters who are taking them seriously. One reporter stopped a rioting teenager to ask him what the purpose of the whole thing was. The kid, seeing a camera and mic decided he better say something other than "The purpose is to steal stuff and fuc shit up". Instead, he said something like "We're tired of being pushed down by the government, tired of being told we are nothing". This kid was like 16. Wtf? I guess anything can sound noble when you make it about "Working for the man".

I don't think kids get into the same kinda trouble congregating at their friends house with parents home than they do loitering on the streets en masse until 2am with no supervision. Even if they're @ friends house and the parents were absent, the most they can do is steal or mess up that house, as opposed to mugging people on the street or breaking into stores. They're still contained in one private property instead of being loose on the streets doing god knows what.

Of course there are exceptions, different cities, laws, states make for good and bad outcomes, but generally I have found curfews play an excellent part in skipping lots of the bullshit in the evolution of kids.

Chewbacca 08-12-2011 01:29 PM
Re: London riots
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azred (Post 1246885)
What color is the sky on your planet? Here on Earth the sky is blue.

The Tea Party has three problems at this time: 1) insufficient membership, 2) most of them are new so they have no political clout, and 3) no formal organization through which to further their goals.

There are currently no theocrats in Washington, D.C. Tea Party folks do not support the Nanny State; quite the contrary, if given the ability to do so many of them would quickly and gladly dismantle the Nanny State in its entirety.

Now....back to the riots in London.

I don't live in England so I can't say for certain if these folks really have anything about which to riot. I can't think that life there is in such a poor state that only one action kicks off a riot. They aren't being oppressed overtly...they aren't told how to dress or what to eat...they aren't forced to listen to or read only government propaganda...there aren't people starving by the thousands while some form of aristocracy blithely ignores their suffering...etc.

So why are people rioting? Because police shot a guy? If that were cause for a riot we would have them all the time here.
On the planet I live on the Tea "party" is a Republican strategy that's worked brilliantly, and maybe unintentionally, to weed out the soundbite simpletons and unsavory types embroiled in angry fervor.

Meanwhile the real libertarian-leaning candidates like Ron Paul and Gary Johnson simply stick with the "R" besides their names.

More towards the topic would be a discussion of the ineffectiveness of using anger to confront problems with solutions which require patience and caution.

Azred 08-12-2011 03:06 PM
Re: London riots
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewbacca (Post 1246923)
On the planet I live on the Tea "party" is a Republican strategy that's worked brilliantly, and maybe unintentionally, to weed out the soundbite simpletons and unsavory types embroiled in angry fervor.

Meanwhile the real libertarian-leaning candidates like Ron Paul and Gary Johnson simply stick with the "R" besides their names.

More towards the topic would be a discussion of the ineffectiveness of using anger to confront problems with solutions which require patience and caution.
I don't think the Tea Party has anything to do with Republicans, per se, especially since Repubs are part of the problem that make Tea Party folks upset. I cannot deny that Tea Party people do themselves no favors when they show up with misspelled signs--if you are going to venture out into public, for pity's sake at least make sure your protests are legible and don't look like a kindergartener did them.

I have liked Ron Paul for quite some time. He is the one candidate the Republicans should have fronted for President--he stays in the party out of loyalty and he wants to change it from within--but the RNC has never taken him seriously...because he would make them change their ways. It is just a shame that he'll never win, a fact about which I am realistic.

Anger never solves a problem, except in only the most short-sighted way and those usually cause more problems in the long run. Although there are times/places in which rioting is necessary...this is not one of those times.

SpiritWarrior 08-12-2011 03:50 PM
Re: London riots
 
Problem is the lines are blurred. Many see the tea-party as a direct offshoot of the Republican Party - and from observation they are the craziest, most extreme parts of the party. After all, their most famous speakers and leaders are all Republican.

Micah Foehammer 08-12-2011 03:52 PM
Re: London riots
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azred (Post 1246921)
Perhaps the two stories had merged in the back of my mind. Still...as you note, they are examples of a police department not living up to our expectations.
Actually the NOPD TOTALLY lived up to my expectations. ROTFL

After seeing them in action before Katrina, I expected them to be ignorant, arrogant, corrupt, and lazy. Nothing that happened during or immediately after Katrina changed my pov.

yeah yeah I know broad brush generalization .... lol


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