We're coming...........

http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/noncgi/fleet.jpg
"AUTUMN ARRIVES WITH WAR WINDS BLOWING"
(Actual photo of forces in-route)

I DO hope they only kill the terrorists, and not the innocents.

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Ziroc™
Ironworks Webmaster
www.tgeweb.com/ironworks

http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/hero.gif

[This message has been edited by Ziroc (edited 09-23-2001).]

Wow! Pretty awesome pic, Ziroc!!!!!!!!!

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http://members.aol.com/amandaisflirt...s/tradesig.jpg
Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar

LH Member

And you never did think that it ever would happen again, in America did you? And you never did think that we'd ever get together again, but we damn sure fooled ya. We're walkin' real proud and we're talkin' real loud again, in America. And you never did think that it ever would happen again.... (Charlie Daniels)

[This message has been edited by Liliara (edited 09-23-2001).]

well its nice to see our military forces in action...

but isnt it a bit naive to think that a LITTLE collateral damage wont happen?

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It's simple. Once the Planet is hurt, it gathers Spirit Energy to heal the injury. The amount of energy gathered depends on the size of the injury...What would happen if there was an injury that threatened the very life of the Planet? Think how much energy would be gathered! Ha, ha, ha. And at the center of that injury, wil be me. All that boundless energy will be mine. By merging with the energy of the Planet, I will be come a new life form, a new existence. Melding with the Planet, I will cease to exist as I am now. Only to be reborn as a 'God' to rule over every living soul.

http://www.angelfire.com/games3/impg...ephforsite.gif
Super Sephiroth, slayer of the Uber Fluffy, and battle co-ordionator and defender of the HADB clan.

Follower of the mighty Fallen Paladin himself.

Diplomacy is all and well, but HADB is better!

Admirer of the Lioness.

One can hope innocents don't get harmed, but I DO know this is War, and it will no doubt happen.. I hope we get him, and break up his network of terrorists quickly...


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Ziroc™
Ironworks Webmaster
www.tgeweb.com/ironworks

http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/hero.gif

[This message has been edited by Ziroc (edited 09-23-2001).]

Yes, Z, I agree. This is a sad situation, but I do hope we get the terrorists responsible and not the innocents nearby.

CB

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http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/bestow1.jpg http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/hero2.gif

Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
Storm-Queen
Raven's Cloud
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."

I think this is terribly reckless. Surely there must be a more subtle way to get hold of Bin Laden or whoever is responsible.

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Arch mage of the Seldarine
[img]http://communities.msn.co.uk/_Secure/0MwAvQiIS68yaeD9h5Pse*xXpwGZdk5rCu!0NDYr4Y2SZK0RdC ylCjR7MDyOC5ObvJjS61vcf0X7eYwVxc22kBQ/BlackLich.gif[/img]

ahem

C'mon 250 it's just barbaric.

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Arch mage of the Seldarine
[img]http://communities.msn.co.uk/_Secure/0MwAvQiIS68yaeD9h5Pse*xXpwGZdk5rCu!0NDYr4Y2SZK0RdC ylCjR7MDyOC5ObvJjS61vcf0X7eYwVxc22kBQ/BlackLich.gif[/img]

I think the only other option is assasination, and I don't
think we're quite ready to commit to that yet. Political
pressure didn't work, maybe economic will (but from anything
I heard about Afghanistan right now, that won't matter either).

I was agreeing with you, but knew there is nothing gained by talking http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif

But we're ready to bomb the S*** out of starving children who have never committed a terrorist act in their lives? Come on people!

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http://www.gldb.com/wayno/e1.jpg
Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.

Epona of The Laughing Hyenas
Proud winner of the 'Most Useless Post 250 Has Ever Seen' Award 2001. "I'd just like to thank my friends and family, without whom none of this would have been possible..."

It is very odd that our government has no stomach for assassination, but has no problem with the concept of bombing the crap out an area and killing thousand of people. Does the second of these 2 acts make us more honorable?

Mark

It is NEVER EVER "nice" to see ANY military forces "in action" ... !

And in your post you have yourself given the answer why that is !

Sorry if that sounds harsh but that is something I feel very strongly about. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

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So long !

R³ aka "The Ramonster"(thanks Sir Tainly) - proud to be the official spokesman for the most noble Lady Bilqis, Desert Rose of Ironworks

Btw, the cow is queuing in the slaughterhouse right now !

[This message has been edited by Ramon de Ramon y Ramon (edited 09-23-2001).]

dude... you can just annouce

"OK, we are going to assasinate you!"

of course, this military action could be a cover for undergo assasinations... http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif

We have to make sacrifices... so sad... I mean, it is the inevitable... at least one, AT LEAST one innocent will die in this so-called war... it is why war is never nice... it never stays on the grounds you want.

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http://members.aol.com/lasttrueprinc...ages/heart.gif

You guys heard Chiharumut, whattabout Ba[H]eartamut??? :)

Skywalker, you suprise me! as do all of you out in the great cyber-ephrix! What part of targeted stikes and convert actions do you not understand? The USA WILL NOT carpet bomb cities or refuge camps to get at a single target, that only happens in movies to make the villain look even more evil. Any terrorist training camps in Afghanistan are located away from the population areas. Think about it what good is it to have hiding places in the mountains and caves (NOT IN TOWNS) and have you training camps in populated areas? What are they going to do get up at 4:00 am to walk how ever many miles to town to train all day then walk back to their caves at night, just to do it again the next day? These people are terrorist not IDIOTS they understand the concept of fatigue and secrecy. They hide in the shadows.
As for the Talliban they have buildings, infrastructure, and weapons in the field that can be targeted indivdualy, remember all the video from the gulf war of single tanks being hit.



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http://www.123imagehost.com/images/b...arrissig02.gif
"the memories of a man in his old age,
are deeds of a man in his prime"

I think that Bush is smart enough to try the covert approach before going for an all-out bombing assault, the covert approach would be to take out Bin Laden and his closest lieutenants with a small elite force of snipers, assasins and other specialists, it would prevent innocents from being hurt and it would remove the root of the problem.

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Worshipper of Tiax.

Wielder of the ancient Lawyer spells.

Member of the HADB clan.

http://www.dabros.net/images/tcampbell/hadb5.jpg

http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/hero.gif

Ally of the Fluffy Queen and the Dreaded Red Fluffy

General of the highest class and Leader of the Legal Department and Jumprope Compound in the IW Peacekeeping Force.

I've also got a pretty long sig.

Mark[/b][/QUOTE]
Skywalker, you suprise me! as do all of you out in the great cyber-ephrix! What part of targeted stikes and convert actions do you not understand? The USA WILL NOT carpet bomb cities or refuge camps to get at a single target, that only happens in movies to make the villain look even more evil. Any terrorist training camps in Afghanistan are located away from the population areas. Think about it what good is it to have hiding places in the mountains and caves (NOT IN TOWNS) and have you training camps in populated areas? What are they going to do get up at 4:00 am to walk how ever many miles to town to train all day then walk back to their caves at night, just to do it again the next day? These people are terrorist not IDIOTS they understand the concept of fatigue and secrecy. They hide in the shadows.
As for the Talliban they have buildings, infrastructure, and weapons in the field that can be targeted indivdualy, remember all the video from the gulf war of single tanks being hit.


[/B][/QUOTE]

Bit of a problem re those that are fighting for the Taliban, of course. Given that the Taliban coerce their people into doing what they want, I wonder how many of their fighters are there because they want to be? I guess if the Taliban want you, an Afghan male, in their ranks, that's where you're going to be, whether you like it or not....... Yes? No?

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http://www.asnsoup.com/silvercheetahfinal.jpg

[This message has been edited by Silver Cheetah (edited 09-23-2001).]

First of all...let us not forget that over 6000 innocents have already died http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/frown.gif...that of course does not mean that we should kill more for revenge, but the cards have already been laid down by bin Laden and like it or not, more innocents will die...unfortunately people are going to die to bring out the justice that we seek. I get the sinking feeling that the Taliban regime and bin Laden are going to surround themselves with women and children to make it a difficult decision for the US and other world governments. Take out everyone to get your target or rethink the strategy and try another approach. These maniacs in Afghanastan(sp) have absolutely no regard for human life (as it is proven already) and I don't think for one second that they wouldn't be willing to sacrafice their own citizens to protect themselves.

The only solution I can see is a 100% occupation of Afghanastan. Take over the capital (Kabul) and set up an interim government (UN, NATO, US, whatever), set up protection for the innocent civilians, and then go about striking at the main targets.

I too hope that no more innocents have to be killed, but I don't think that is a realistic goal http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/frown.gif

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http://www.bestanimations.com/fantas.../dragon-04.gif

Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

This is very true. Kind of like a forced draft...join or die...much like our government's proclamation "You are either with us or you are with the terrorists"

But there is another side. Many of these Afgan males do wish to join the Taliban regime to save their way of life (they are not all as fanatical though)...the males in this society have absolute power...if that power is threatened, then I think it is an easy decision for them!

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http://www.bestanimations.com/fantas.../dragon-04.gif

Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

i meant it was nice that we're not sitting on our hands like we usually do, waiting for him to strike again. if we dont move now, how many more innocent people do you think will die? there were alreadh over 6k in the WTC attacks, and he also attacked the ebassy's in Africa, i dont remember how many people died there but im sure it was quite a few! if we dont strike now, who's to say how many more will die because of our inactivity?

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It's simple. Once the Planet is hurt, it gathers Spirit Energy to heal the injury. The amount of energy gathered depends on the size of the injury...What would happen if there was an injury that threatened the very life of the Planet? Think how much energy would be gathered! Ha, ha, ha. And at the center of that injury, wil be me. All that boundless energy will be mine. By merging with the energy of the Planet, I will be come a new life form, a new existence. Melding with the Planet, I will cease to exist as I am now. Only to be reborn as a 'God' to rule over every living soul.

http://www.angelfire.com/games3/impg...ephforsite.gif
Super Sephiroth, slayer of the Uber Fluffy, and battle co-ordionator and defender of the HADB clan.

Follower of the mighty Fallen Paladin himself.

Diplomacy is all and well, but HADB is better!

Admirer of the Lioness.

Head of the IronWorks Intelligence Division

What a great copy of the photo in my morning paper, Zman. I like your caption a hell of a lot better, though! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif
may I *ahem* 'borrow' your concept?http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

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Unstinting Gaurdian of Children
Defender of Those Unable To
http://angelfire.lycos.com/rpg/stealthy/mummy.gif
To Err is Human To Forgive Divine, However Neither is U.S. Marine Corps Policy. Nuke'm til the damn camels glow.

You are right about the other side of the coin. Many do want to join, not all of the refuges are women and children, the Northern Alliance is not made up of only women and children. I'll bet that many that are forced into service go AWOL when they get the chance.


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http://www.123imagehost.com/images/b...arrissig02.gif
"the memories of a man in his old age,
are deeds of a man in his prime"

Holy Cow!!!
I just read past Dan's post to everything else. I have to admit that I just do not understand those of you who do not want us to attack because there may lives of people not actively involved in orchestrating the sneak attack. Innocent children, women and men may die - they already have, as Moridin pointed out.
Here's a little factoid for digestion,those of you who wish to not do anything:
in just two of the hundreds of companies in the towers (saw this this morning on fox pregame nfl show, of all places) Boomer Esiason was a quarterback in the nfl, and has a child with a congenital birth defect, cerebral palsy, cystic fibrosis, something that guarantees an early death at this point, and a painful life up to that point. He established a foundation to generate revenue for reseach into cures for this condition, knowing that his son will die before a cure can be found, realistically speaking. His offices were with the Cantor-Fitzgerald floors of the tower, ones that were directly struck by the plane in tower 1. The death toll was almost 100% (only employees not there survived) the over 700 people in JUST THOSE TWO COMPANIES left over 1200 fully or partially ORPHANED CHILDREN!!!! by my extrapolation, with over 6500 dead, from all over the world, means something like 12,000 (TWELVE THOUSAND) instant orphans and widows(ers) were created in over 80 countries world wide. So, how do you like them now? wanna natter at me, JD, Moridin, and others whose passion you just can't seem to grasp? I do not know, other than Tobbin, who else on the board has lost friends and family, but even if I had not, You would not see any less passion out of me, nor will you. Shame for hiding behind innocents - we have lost more than those jihad jerks in the last 20 years, hardly any of them even connected to the military.

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Unstinting Gaurdian of Children
Defender of Those Unable To
http://angelfire.lycos.com/rpg/stealthy/mummy.gif
To Err is Human To Forgive Divine, However Neither is U.S. Marine Corps Policy. Nuke'm til the damn camels glow.

that's very sad indeed. however, you seem perfectly happy to indulge a few more orphans in the world.

there is no absolute answer. however, retaliation does not even come close to helping the situation one iota. all it will do is aggravate the current crisis and add a few more corpses. cool your heels and use your logic circuits.

tracey!

Sounds like those of us who want peace, are the bad guys lately. No one ever said let it go, what I say is, get bin Laden, just try not remove Afghanistan from the map!

Mark

Force won't get bin Laden, Ziroc. Don't even hope. All it will do is kill and maim thousands of people who have already suffered at the hands of Russia, the Taliban, et al, until they have NOTHING. Not even sufficient food for another month, and all the aid agencies pulling out. How CAN we attack those people? It is worse than shameful, imho. It's inhuman.
It is a brilliant photo, but I'm afraid it makes me feel very sick. Nothing personal.

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http://www.ranchoweb.com/images/bg2guy/bitchingcopy.gif

http://www.ranchoweb.com/images/bg2guy/fljotsdale.gif

<font color=orange>We can not set back and let him strike again later. Too many have died already. To me that is logic. I agree with John D. We will not carpet bomb Afganistan. What would that do? My guess is the Northern Alliance is about to get a whole lot of help, including economic aid. We will provide training and leadership, close aerial support and anything else they need. We will shutdown the borders around Afganistan as best we can, take out the Taliban with their own people, and get Bin Laden in the end. We cannot go into Afganistan and occupy it. History has proven that. Ask the Russians. The Afgan government problem must be dealt with from within (with a little bit of help from us). This time, I hope we do things right and don't walk away from Afganistan after the fight is over, but stay and provide economic support and humanitarian aid. That's what we didn't do the first time.

War is tragic, but sometimes it is necessary. </font>


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Sir Taliesin

http://www.dabros.com/images/sigs/giant.gif

If they take my gun can I still use my Axe?

Ergo, war > peace!

Mark

John? Remember? 'love your enemies'. 'Vengeance is MINE, I will repay, saith the Lord'

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http://www.ranchoweb.com/images/bg2guy/bitchingcopy.gif

http://www.ranchoweb.com/images/bg2guy/fljotsdale.gif

[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 09-23-2001).]

Um! What does "cyber-ephrix" mean? (I feel ignorant!http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/frown.gif) http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif


Mark

J.J., I don't think ANYONE has said we should just sit on our hands and do nothing!
But to ADD to the loss of life when we can be almost CERTAIN we will not even GET bin Laden and his cronies is utter folly and utterly shameful!
Yes, we have orphans, widows, widowers, parents who have lost children and grandchildren at the hands of the terrorists - but face the FACT that they will be cared for, they will not starve, they will have all the comforts of civilisation around them. Yes they suffer. Yes they are to be pitied. But they will NEVER have to suffer the way the Afghans (and many other eastern peoples) have ALREADY suffered and will suffer further if we attack them.

I am hoping that all this show of force is just to frighten the Taliban into handing over bin Laden.... but I am not confident.
And if we DO use military force you can be darn SURE that the US and the rest of the West will suffer FAR more than the Two Towers and the Pentagon deaths. Believe it. We will be making things worse for OURSELVES as well as killing already wretched innocent people.

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http://www.ranchoweb.com/images/bg2guy/bitchingcopy.gif

http://www.ranchoweb.com/images/bg2guy/fljotsdale.gif

[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 09-23-2001).]

THE LORD HELPS THOSE WHO HELP THEMSELVES - Proverbs. We're just gonna help those suckas. Think of us as real estate brokers - just your friendly, worldwide real estate agent. We feel their pain, we're just going to help them with their final real estate deal, and buy them their very own piece of real estate, 6 feet under. Really, our intentions are just misunderstood, the jealous mewlings of those who are not so fortunate as to recieve our help in the real estate field. Well, you know how to get it now, don't you? http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

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Unstinting Gaurdian of Children
Defender of Those Unable To
http://angelfire.lycos.com/rpg/stealthy/mummy.gif
To Err is Human To Forgive Divine, However Neither is U.S. Marine Corps Policy. Nuke'm til the damn camels glow.

JJ! I don't think I've ever heard anything quite like what you just posted.

Mark

Great thread, tracey. I agree wholeheartedly!

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http://www.ranchoweb.com/images/bg2guy/bitchingcopy.gif

http://www.ranchoweb.com/images/bg2guy/fljotsdale.gif

It is NOT, however, a BIBLE proverb. Belongs in the Book of Thieves, perhaps. The rest of your post deserves no reply.

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http://www.ranchoweb.com/images/bg2guy/bitchingcopy.gif

http://www.ranchoweb.com/images/bg2guy/fljotsdale.gif

[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 09-23-2001).]

Skywalker,
I have no problem with you being a pacifist or wanting peace. I may have come off stronger then intended in my earlier reply to one of your posts. I was just suprised that you would have fallen for the bombing of innocent Afghani people line. While you and I are polar opposites on the political front, I have found you to be intelligent,repectful, not given to emomtional statments, or the hypocritical "My way is the only way and if you don't agree with me then you must be THE closeminded, argumentative one" view.
If you have any suggestions on how to get rid of the terrorist without military strikes I'm all ears. But please bare in mind that we have tried the diplomatic, economic sanction, and failed miserbly on the intel. route. The only option I see left to us is the military route. As General W.T.Sherman said "war is hell" (gags as his southern mind quotes Gen. Sherman). I'm willing to compromize, as I beleive you are inorder to find a solution, who knows maybe we can come up with something.

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http://www.123imagehost.com/images/b...arrissig02.gif
"the memories of a man in his old age,
are deeds of a man in his prime"

John. I just made a statement in this thead that I didn't understand why we are always have trouble taking out 1 guy, but have no trouble going for broke and blowing up stuff!

The problem is that getting rid of terrorism by spouting off about the "NEW WAR" and "INFINITE JUSTICE" is a little bit juvenile. Deaths won't stop it, it will help a little, but it won't cure hatred. Is that so hard to understand.

I'm not sure we can get rid of terrorism, but if killing a lot of people makes the majority feel better, fine. Just don't expect me to cheer about it.

I don't get paid to or have the education to come up with the bright ideas needed to end terrorism. I only finished 12 grades in a trade type High School. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but people in power are supposed be that smart, it's their job, not mine!

I never said do nothing, John.

Mark [Edit for dumb spelling errors!]

[This message has been edited by skywalker (edited 09-23-2001).]

Yes, but I believe that is speaking of an individual's actions, not an nation's actions. Please see my post to G'kar on his peace thread, and please pay attention to the first and, last lines on the subject in my post. I say that because there has been alot finger pointing and accusations of emotional reactions, because some us "say there is a time for war, and a time for peace".



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http://www.123imagehost.com/images/b...arrissig02.gif
"the memories of a man in his old age,
are deeds of a man in his prime"

I was of the understanding that it applies to christians and christianity as a whole, regardless of whatever nation they happen to belong to. The 'time for war' was past for christians since the baptism of Jesus. Even though christians and christianity have not lived up to that Christlike standard of love since the first century AD.
Sorry to disagree with you, John. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif


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[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 09-23-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 09-23-2001).]