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-   -   US 'no' on Taiwan arms seen as sign of China clout (http://www.ironworksforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=102125)

Felix The Assassin 09-21-2011 11:01 PM

US 'no' on Taiwan arms seen as sign of China clout
 
First Israel, now Taiwan, who's next, the American people?

http://news.yahoo.com/us-no-taiwan-a...111014713.html

Timber Loftis 09-22-2011 07:54 PM

Re: US 'no' on Taiwan arms seen as sign of China clout
 
Quote:

The top U.S. diplomat for East Asia, Kurt Campbell, publicly confirmed in New York on Wednesday that the Obama administration will upgrade Taiwan's existing fleet of F-16s, postponing for now the sale of new models that Taipei sought. The decision brought a swift, angry denunciation from Beijing, where Vice Foreign Minister Zhang Zhijun summoned U.S. Ambassador Gary Locke to warn that exchanges between the militaries, security cooperation and overall ties will suffer.
Doesn't sound like it's cowtowing to China, since we're still in arms deals with Taiwan and China is still objecting.

That said, I can think of no two better places to completely quit selling arms than Israel and Taiwan. Taiwan, because they aren't a sovereign nation and because our "unique" relationship with them is rather unseemly. It's akin to having an arms deal with Canterbury while London objects. Israel, because we've been on the wrong side of the conflict for so long, and continue to be. As long as Israel keeps annexing and settling land, they're just being outright evil.

Felix The Assassin 09-22-2011 10:42 PM

Re: US 'no' on Taiwan arms seen as sign of China clout
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Timber Loftis (Post 1247407)
Doesn't sound like it's cowtowing to China, since we're still in arms deals with Taiwan and China is still objecting.

That said, I can think of no two better places to completely quit selling arms than Israel and Taiwan. Taiwan, because they aren't a sovereign nation and because our "unique" relationship with them is rather unseemly. It's akin to having an arms deal with Canterbury while London objects. Israel, because we've been on the wrong side of the conflict for so long, and continue to be. As long as Israel keeps annexing and settling land, they're just being outright evil.

The Merkava 4 will take the M1A2 Export model in Egypt, Iraq, Saudi, Oman, and Syria....Oops, did I say that in my typing voice...

Timber Loftis 09-23-2011 01:44 AM

Re: US 'no' on Taiwan arms seen as sign of China clout
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix The Assassin (Post 1247409)
The Merkava 4

I'm not fluent enough here, but that's Israel's version of the Main Battle Tank?
Quote:

will take the M1A2 Export model in Egypt, Iraq, Saudi, Oman, and Syria.
Are you saying that the IDF's MBT will best the export MBTs we've sold to those countries? I would not doubt it in the least.

What's the point you're making?

Felix The Assassin 09-23-2011 09:06 AM

Re: US 'no' on Taiwan arms seen as sign of China clout
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Timber Loftis (Post 1247410)
I'm not fluent enough here, but that's Israel's version of the Main Battle Tank?

Correct.

Quote:

Are you saying that the IDF's MBT will best the export MBTs we've sold to those countries? I would not doubt it in the least.
Correct.

Quote:

What's the point you're making?
You said stop selling to Israel, we are on the wrong side etc...

I was reassuring you that Israel has produced equipment on their own that exceeds the capability of what we have sold their Islamic neighbors. ;)

Furthermore, I'm not sure of how much you know/care about how much money (cash) we give to some nations in the middle east to keep from slaughtering or becoming the slaughtered of their neighbors as opposed to how much hardware (export model) we sell to the neighbors of said countries to provide a sense of (false) superiority. It's a delicate triangle of international politics, and one day the cat is going to completely escape the bag, and that day my friend, is going to cause shame and embarrassment to whomever is sitting in the big house.

Azred 09-23-2011 11:52 AM

Re: US 'no' on Taiwan arms seen as sign of China clout
 
So when are we going to learn our lesson and quit messing around with the internal politics of other countries?

Felix The Assassin 09-23-2011 07:35 PM

Re: US 'no' on Taiwan arms seen as sign of China clout
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Azred (Post 1247417)
So when are we going to learn our lesson and quit messing around with the internal politics of other countries?

If we traverse history, and apply lessons learned, it will not happen in my life time! :(

Timber Loftis 09-26-2011 01:27 AM

Re: US 'no' on Taiwan arms seen as sign of China clout
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix The Assassin (Post 1247412)
Correct.
I was reassuring you that Israel has produced equipment on their own that exceeds the capability of what we have sold their Islamic neighbors. ;)

OK, and maybe this takes off on what your subsequent comments hinted at, but we (the U.S.) have contributed quite heavily to Israel's military overall.
http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/...ael050602.html
You may note from that link that we not only outright gave Israel money to develop the Merkava MBT, but we also outfitted them with the largest fleet of F16's outside our borders. I will not deny that Israel is superb in developing its own warfare -- dating back to the Uzi and even prior to that. But, the fact remains that we spend a ton of money outfitting that little country with its small population with a significant amount of firepower to allow it to quell and/or subject those many enemies it has surrounding it.

Felix The Assassin 09-26-2011 10:54 AM

Re: US 'no' on Taiwan arms seen as sign of China clout
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Timber Loftis (Post 1247442)
OK, and maybe this takes off on what your subsequent comments hinted at, but we (the U.S.) have contributed quite heavily to Israel's military overall.
http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/...ael050602.html
You may note from that link that we not only outright gave Israel money to develop the Merkava MBT, but we also outfitted them with the largest fleet of F16's outside our borders. I will not deny that Israel is superb in developing its own warfare -- dating back to the Uzi and even prior to that. But, the fact remains that we spend a ton of money outfitting that little country with its small population with a significant amount of firepower to allow it to quell and/or subject those many enemies it has surrounding it.

I have no rose colored glasses, and fully agree. However, the other side of the dollar is how much we (USA) 'gives' to other countries in that region. Just saying, it ain't a lopsided debacle...From what I can see, from my vantage point is; if we withheld foreign "handouts" for 20-22 months, we could, with proper adult supervision, balance our budget, pay off our debts, fund our infrastructure repair contracts, and provide enough population stimulus to end our current depression.

wellard 10-24-2011 08:59 PM

Re: US 'no' on Taiwan arms seen as sign of China clout
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Timber Loftis (Post 1247407)
Doesn't sound like it's cowtowing to China, since we're still in arms deals with Taiwan and China is still objecting.

That said, I can think of no two better places to completely quit selling arms than Israel and Taiwan. Taiwan, because they aren't a sovereign nation and because our "unique" relationship with them is rather unseemly.


Sorry to hear you have this view point Timber.

In the years since Ron Raygun used to be your president and had the balls to stand up to China publicly and practically, this acceptance of the China claim over a democratic country seems to be gaining ground.

Thankfully some of us are still wise to these '1984' type thought control methods.

Tibet anyone? :sad:


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