This is too funny:
From wired news-

Dear Saddam, How Can I Help? (U.S. vs. Them 2:00 a.m. PDT)
http://go.hotwired.com/news/conflict....html/wn_ascii

People from all over the world -- including the United States -- e-
mail Saddam Hussein with advice on how Iraq can defeat America in a
war, offer moral support and even broker business deals. By Brian
McWilliams.

Heh...unbelievable.

Also likely undeliverable, if all those messages are still hanging around cluttering the in box.

Nevertheless, this clues us in to two sad facts:
1. The Iraqi leader is probably well-removed from world opinion and doesn't understand how he is in disfavor and in danger well enough to cooperate properly.
2. Americans are always and forever rather oblivious, as a group, as to how disliked their government is around the world.
:(

Nah I dont think thats true. Anyone that watches the news will see that people hate America. Its just, I for one, dont give a crap.

Nah I dont think thats true. Anyone that watches the news will see that people hate America. Its just, I for one, dont give a crap.</font>[/QUOTE]That could be a further cause for the dislike to continue and/or grow.

It is very true that most Americans don't give a rat's tail about the opinions of the outside world. On the one hand, this may make the yanks seem totally arrogant. But on the other, it gives them a distinct advantage, as they can basically act without global peer-pressure.

I was expecting a reply like that. And its useless. Maybe its a small,small,small fraction of the problem. But dont you think we should start where you real problem is? Like you know, trying to stop fanatical Muslims from running planes into buildings?

not so much sex in TV, (more Hiyazaki :D )

I am sure the american government can use the money they are ready to throw into war now on somewhere else.

I've never felt the sufferings of people who live at a waring place, even the Sep 11 was a remote event. but come to think of it, why cannot people live in peace? many things are at stack, and when it goes to war, so many can suffer. dont tell me this is the suffering to end all sufferings. think of Ashitaka's (bear with me) sincere cry "why cannot the humans and the forest live in peace!"

if there is a war, everyone lose something. and at the end people learn war should and could never have happened at the first place. it is true that evil people die, (not saying iraq is evil) but so does innocent people. what about the families who cry for their loses?

Take this for example:

Say you have the nicest house on your block. And everyone else doesnt like you for it. Do you care? No you dont. If that turns to violence, are you to blame? No your not. Why should you be held responable for something that you have? We could get into a big debate over how we got it, but whats done is done, you cant change the past. You can only try to do whats best for the present and furture.

I know that, who doesn't?

you take it as if it is the most simple truth. but why? why don't people care? and why the people who dislike others? why the short sightedness? when I think of the needless suffering for someone else's flaws, I shake my head. it is for the bystanders, innocents caught in the bloodshed.

and I suppose someone would tell me this is the fact of life, that people should live with it. it is true, it is. thus this helplessness and rage is the source of sorrow.

[ 10-28-2002, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: 250 ]

But if you have the nicest house on the block, why do you need to keep shoving that fact in peoples faces all the time. And why do you need to be picking on someone that doesn't have a house that's as nice as yours?

I agree with you about "what's done is done" but instead of forgetting about it, how about trying to set it right?

Nah I dont think thats true. Anyone that watches the news will see that people hate America. Its just, I for one, dont give a crap.</font>[/QUOTE]That could be a further cause for the dislike to continue and/or grow.</font>[/QUOTE]Iron Ranger, I think you are not the only "I for one" who doesn't give a crap. That, in turn, begets the true hatred, of the fact the we are not only on the top of the heap but don't mind throwing our weight around, as evidenced by this further comment by Djinn.

But, Mel Brooks said it best: It's good to be the king.

But if you have the nicest house on the block, why do you need to keep shoving that fact in peoples faces all the time. And why do you need to be picking on someone that doesn't have a house that's as nice as yours?

I agree with you about "what's done is done" but instead of forgetting about it, how about trying to set it right?</font>[/QUOTE]Gotta applaud ya there

But if you have the nicest house on the block, why do you need to keep shoving that fact in peoples faces all the time. And why do you need to be picking on someone that doesn't have a house that's as nice as yours?

I agree with you about "what's done is done" but instead of forgetting about it, how about trying to set it right?</font>[/QUOTE]Hey, I agree with you completely. I think America should pull out of most things we do. Including sending billions of dollars to countrys around the world, obviously they dont appertiate it.

Edit: Sorry if I seem a bit edgy, I have had a bad day and shouldnt be taken it out on you guys.

[ 10-28-2002, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: Iron_Ranger ]

You should not be responsible for their ills, IR, but it is human nature for them to (a) covet and (b) dislike your advantage, and you with it. To make it worse, if they come to you with problems seeking leadership (as you are obviously the one in the neighborhood who knows how to keep your house), and you scoff at them, or, worse, abuse and/or take advantage of them, then their hatred grows. Again, it's not your fault.

So, you are then understandably offended, angry, and upset - but NOT (if you have a brain) *surprised* - when they "burn down your house and sleep with your daughter." Wouldn't you have been better off helping them out to begin with, or at least not scoffing at them?

Look - I am sure that not every part of my above extended metaphor applies to US international relations, but you started the metaphor thing so don't hold it against me if I got creative. :D

[EDIT] I didn't read your post (immediately above) before I posted this, so I think the issue has already been sufficiently addressed. And, I think we see eye-to-eye on it. [img]graemlins/cheers.gif[/img]

[ 10-28-2002, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

you know, iron Ranger, that's not a half bad idea. Whatever way you look at it, the "war on Terror" started because USA offered help/interfered (I'm not gonna judge, it's not my place to and I doubt you'd care anyway, so pick whichever one you like) in other countries. Maybe the USA should watch out for who they help in the future. They supplied the IRA with weapons, after all.

Don't wanna be identified as a yank basher, just adding my thoughts [img]smile.gif[/img]

Don't be taking a sarcastic tone with me Mr Iron Ranger sir :D

I've got no problems with the aid and protection that America has given over the years, I just wish that it was done for the good of your fellow man as opposed to being done so that America had something to hold over said countries.

I might not live in the flashest house on the block but I like it and quite frankly I can't think of a place I'd rather live. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 10-28-2002, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: Downunda ]

What if you live in a dumpster? Or don't actually live on teh street at all?
Dammit, I'm getting caught up in all the deep thinking :D

If you live in a dumpster then you're welcome to stay at my place, just wipe your feet at the door and make sure Mr Peters doesn't see you - He has this thing about uninvited visitors.

Don't be so modest. If what I've seen of the LotR movies is any indication, you have it as good or better there as I did in Vermont.

As for helping for purely alturistic means, it's unlikely. Even if you are doing something good for purely alturistic purposes, the fact that it's not hard to also gain a pecuniary benefit from it means you usually work it to your benefit at least a bit. Example: charitable tax deductions - if you're gonna give, at least make the other taxpayers soak up a bit, right?

Thank you for your kind words TL. New Zealand definately has alot of picture postcard scenery but what I was meaning was...

Because of our small population and relative isolation we are not the richest country around and due to this we don't have the same sort of opportunities that for example someone from Australia or America might have - Jobwise, educationwise or healthwise.
But as I said, I'm happy with the "laid back", "cruisy" and "relaxing" lifestyle that NZ offers [img]smile.gif[/img]

I am still confused why the rest of the world is not happy. It is THIER choice of government, THIER country, and yet get they get all bent out of shape about AMERICANS?! Why aren't they working on what they want to fix in their own homes?

I don't understand what you mean about Americans shoving in your face if we have a nicer house. No one I know does this, and no one on the board does this. What exactly are you referring to??

I get really tired of the "Americans are sticking their noses in other people's business". That is a bunch of hooey. We are usually there because we are (A)-Invited to do so, or (B)-because some action has been done to us. I haven't noticed us being expansionist and trying to take over other countries, I don't see us going in another country "just because", and I don't see us using terrorism on ANYONE.

So explain to me, exactly, why the hostility to the US?

(I am more than ready for the flambee to begin)

No need for flames to fly [img]smile.gif[/img]

I'm sorry that I didn't explain myself properly. By saying "shoving it in peoples faces" I meant that I didn't like the way that America thinks that it's better than everyone else (Iron Rangers post reg. the best house on the block).

I said it in a previous post and I'll say it again... I like living in New Zealand, the lifestyle here isn't for everyone but it suits me perfectly [img]smile.gif[/img] I'm not saying that it is perfect... we have serious problems with health and education (basically getting enough money for them) but at the end of the day I am happy here.

I am in no way hostile to the US and I believe that there are certain things that are done in America that New Zealand should adopt; that said, I say again that I don't like certain "holier than thou" attitudes that some Americans exert.

Oh no..... not again.

<font color="#00ccff">Just a comment [img]smile.gif[/img] anyone from the USA offering to broker business deals, offering financial support or in any other way aiding Iraq against the USA can now be charged under the sedition laws and may be declared a traitor [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>

What? Did you fart?

What? Did you fart?</font>[/QUOTE]Eeeerm...yeah... that too ! :D

I don't notice the "holier than thou" attitude myself. I see a few who are trying to defend their way of life and the country they live in to those who continually tell us how bad we are.

It is really hard to take the continual barrage.

Anyone would notice that I usually say nothing about this, but I don't bash other countries and I certainly don't expect ANYONE ELSE to bash mine.

Since 9-11, there is increasing freedom on this board to say that we were asking for it or whatever, which doesn't bother me. But when it continues on and on like this I begin to wonder how prejudiced people are. Again. I don't do this to others and for it to continue bothers me a great deal.

I may sound like I am a witch, but right now I am at the end of my rope. My country is considering a war which I am totally against because our President feels the need to assert himself. This is affecting many people that I know. Also our economy hasn't really recovered from that and I find it difficult to make ends meet. I am not blaming anyone, but my nerves are frazzled. In the last year this country has been under attack from many sides and after a while it will get to you.

I would like to know how many others could deal with the amount of difficulty we have had with the same amount of fortitude.

<font color="#00ccff">Cutiepie, you had me right up till you accused Bush of wantingthis war just to "assert" himself. Let me say that there are MORE than enough checks and balances to prevent that kind of egotism from running the government. There is a VERY good reason why the vast majority of Congress (both Republicans and Democrats) are backing him, and it is NOT just so they can let him assert himself. I know it is hard to believe, but he and they actually do know far more about Iraq than anyone who visits this board. And I believe they are doing the right thing. This is not about personal ego. I know how badly some people want to be able to ascribe it to Bush's ego, but that bird don't fly! </font>

[ 10-28-2002, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

To start, johnny, take some Gas-X or something. :D

Anyhow, I don't have a problem with the US. It's a nice country, and I've visited it a lot. You can't say, however, that the US has never been known to stick it's noses into others' business. Take the Vietnam War, for example. On the other hand, there are wars like the Gulf War. It wouldn't have been half as big if Saudi Arabia hadn't been a major producer of oil. And I don't have a problem with that. Often, "Muslim" (and I use that word loosely when you associate it with Bin Laden & company) fundamentalists use that as an argument "all they wanted was the oil."

And to that I say

YES!!

Are they honestly supposed to stand by as their #1 producer of their #1 resource is being conquered by a person hostile to them. No. It would have been justified for Iraq if the US was taking away Iraq's source of, say, water or something. Terrorists often take situations like that as their "justification" but honestly, how many civilians had been killed in the Gulf War. I recognize that thousands of families starved in the after-war bombings, but that's a different story. There is no excuse to taking 3000+ <u>non-combatant</u> lives. Ever.

By the way, I don't agree with this new war in Iraq. If it can be proven to me that there is any real threat against the US or NATO or any of it's allies, fine, but as it is, prior bad acts are inadmissable (got that off Law & Order [img]tongue.gif[/img] )

I'm not bashing anyone or anything (apart from when I give Johnny the occasional *smack* ;) )

There's no need to "defend" your country and way of life because I am not "attacking" it as such. I am merely pointing out the feeling I get from some americans. And I am not specifically refering to members of this board.

I cried with you on Sept 12th last year, I was in shock with you on Sept 12th last year and I am all for bringing those responsible to justice and I hope beyond hope that the events of Sept 11th never happen again. It doesn't deserve to happen to any country; rich, poor, developed, undeveloped.

Again, I never meant to upset you and I'm sorry for that. [img]smile.gif[/img]

LOL, yes Charean, you have to explain why so many people who don't have an ego thing in this believe, as I do, that we need to go and take Saddam out.

You should not be responsible for their ills, IR, but it is human nature for them to (a) covet and (b) dislike your advantage, and you with it. To make it worse, if they come to you with problems seeking leadership (as you are obviously the one in the neighborhood who knows how to keep your house), and you scoff at them, or, worse, abuse and/or take advantage of them, then their hatred grows. Again, it's not your fault.

<font color='green'> Ok, explain. How do we scoff at other nations? </font>

So, you are then understandably offended, angry, and upset - but NOT (if you have a brain) *surprised* - when they "burn down your house and sleep with your daughter." Wouldn't you have been better off helping them out to begin with, or at least not scoffing at them?

<font color='green'> Heh, I was going to use the following statment in another part of the post but it seems to fit here better. Cut through the metaphores. The burning down the house statment could be compaired to Sept 11th no? Ok, now whats strange is, you say wouldnt it have been better if we helped in the begining, well, we did just that, he helped Afghanastan against the Soviets in 1980, and then we get branded as setting up the Taliban. Whats even more strange (well maybe not) is that there was a Democrate in office at the time. </font>

Look - I am sure that not every part of my above extended metaphor applies to US international relations, but you started the metaphor thing so don't hold it against me if I got creative. :D

<font color= 'green'> Not holding you against it at all. </font>

[EDIT] I didn't read your post (immediately above) before I posted this, so I think the issue has already been sufficiently addressed. And, I think we see eye-to-eye on it. [img]graemlins/cheers.gif[/img] </font>[/QUOTE]

Just a quick point Iron Ranger (and others, of course):

You admit that people are mad at the USA, you also admit that this anger is a large cause of the actual and potential terrorist attacks on America. Without going too much into the issue of whether or not the anger in question is justified (been there, done that... got the scars...) isn't it simply rational to want to care about the problem? If you ignore the causes of international terrorism and just go around bombing people then, I hate to say it, its quite likely to happen again.

It's always been my position that America didn't "deserve" the Sept 11th attacks, but maybe I think precisely this attitude is why people didn't see them coming. Ignoring this feeling, right or wrong, is a very dangerous course of action.

Simple Dunda...WE DONT! Sure, we do our best to maintain the lawn, and paint the walls. But we're not forcing anyone to watch. And we have our own problems. Rats in the bastment, silverfish in the walls, and crap on the tv. But we are pretty good about policing our own. And when we have the cleaning vehicle come down the road to flush out the spetic tank, why, then the WHOLE neighborhood feels the need to come out and kibitz, and tell *US* how 'we're not doing it right'.

And then, what happens when we look out at the rest of the neighborhood and see that some people are in less nice houses, or, are being forced by some nutjob to live 20 to a room with little food and no freedom, then we are forced, by simple compassion if nothing else, to react and try to help those persons? *WE* are the ones who are derided. *WE* are the ones accused of being 'mean-spirited' or of 'sticking our noses in'. Why is that? To be honest, I still haven't figured that one out yet.

*tosses [img]graemlins/twocents.gif[/img] on the table*

EDITED: Cause I narfed up the quotes. :S

[ 10-29-2002, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: Nachtrafe ]

Note: This by no means is meant to offend anyone and if it does, i'm ready to take my words back and apologize [img]smile.gif[/img]

There is something i figured a while back, and when Charean posted this i'd like to post it. The fact that when some entity begins to excel another, the one left behind can either be a sour loser or a good competitor and look forward to the excellent ones [img]smile.gif[/img] Hopelessly this aint the case in this world as people resort to negative remarks and criticism , they only find the glass half empty, maybe this is why the US is bashed too much perhaps, i for one am glad that i'm not biased about anything and sure Charean i dont expect it from people either, but no this has to go on. Surely i might be wrong, but this is not aimed at any board member, it was just an analysis of general human behaviour and for all i know, we have no right to jugde anyone, for we are not perfect in out knowledge and understanding.
I'm sorry if it hurts anyone but i will again stress that this is not aimed at any board member, and i am not a US citizen either.

What? Did you fart?</font>[/QUOTE]I think he was only showing his precognitive abilities, as the posts immediately following proved rather nicely. :D

Iron Ranger, I'd reply to your post and try to puzzle out where along the way America went way wrong with the Muslim world, but I think I've decided there's wisdom in just not helping to begin with. Of course, I'm feeling rather like a social darwinist today, and maybe tomorrow I'll be more charitable. I say Malthus was right: We should just let the streets run with sewage in our metaphorical little neighborhood, and at least we'll know the strongest have survived to procreate. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

<font color="#00ccff">Just wanted to say, thought this was a wonderful allegory [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>

As far as Bush and his reasons for going after Saddam: I am not convinced this is for the good of this country. I haven't seen convincing evidence that he is linked to Bin Laden. I also wonder why something was not done sooner when he didn't comply with UN regs. At this point, going in there on our own will only sow dissent with the rest of the UN. I think that would be a huge mistake. Not only would we have only ourselves to rely on, but Saddam may pull in some allies and we may not be able to beat back all of them. From what the White House says, they only want regime change. I am sure that they can pull that off without going to war. Whatever happened to simple assassinations? That would be a LOT more efficient. (And before I get bashed for being Liberal - I am not. I am a moderate and registered Independent. I do not toe party lines of Anyone.)

As far as us going in to Kuwait: Oddly enough, I was over there. Oil was a factor, but not the main one. As far as most of the military and me were concerned, we were going over there to protect a country that could not defend itself. It was a UN effort and they all went in there to keep Kuwait free of a dictator.

Funny statement about the house. :D It may look big and flashy on the outside, but inside it's pretty messy if you ask me. Your "big nice house" needs some cleaning up. :D