Woops, there go your Christian principles (IIRC) out the window [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

I like where this discussion has led. Lots of good discourse.
OK, apparently I need to touch up my communication skills and articulate myself more clearly....

Arnabas: Nowhere have I ever stated that 'beating up people just for the hell of it' is a wise course of action. What I was trying to allude to is that our culture, as an animal hierarchy, is governed by a 'natural' appreciation of power (much like any other social animal grouping, such as a pride of lions, a hive of bees or a flock of sheep). Whenever you meet someone new you subconsciously size them up in terms of their personalities and physical attributes (including mental capacity). First judgments are by no means the best ones, but nevertheless we, as social animals, need a sense of hierarchy when interacting with others of our species (and with those of other species too). Now, those at the high end of the pecking order will usually only stay there for as long as they can hold onto their power. No matter how strong an individual may be, if a group unites against them they are likely to be deposed from their position at the top of the hierarchy. Therefore, in order to avoid garnering the indignation of their subordinates, it is in a dominant individual's best interests to not exert more force than is necessary to maintain their dominance. Picking on someone in a wheelchair for no logical reason is just plain foolish. Yet if the person in a wheelchair was attacking you (and in essence challenging your power), then one should feel no qualm with eliminating this challenge by force.

Power comes through the ability to inflict pain on others, but there are many different forms of pain, physical pain being only the crudest form of which. Social isolation, public humiliation, removal of access to resources (freezing their assets in a sense), psychological torture (such as threatening to destroy the people or things that a person values and cares about), psychological intimidation (such as saying 'such-and-such a behaviour is evil/sinful, and if you do it God'll getcha and you'll go to hell!'), repression of self-expression and cultural identity (like how African slaves were stripped of their tribal identities when taken to work in the Americas for instance) .... they are all equally potent forms of pain (and often provide more effective methods of maintaining power than by primitively beating people up).

I do not advocate being a belligerant, chest-banging idiot. I simply have no hesitation in recognising and accepting my animal instincts.

Now, ask yourself, with all honesty, what are 'rights'? Indeed, what are 'laws'? Really? They do not exist as physical phenomena. They are psychological codes and limitations, nothing more, but most certainly nothing less. Claiming a 'right' to something is in essence claiming the power to excercise one's will upon the world in a physical way. No two bodies are alike. Sexual genetic variation is a wonderful thing. No two humans are alike. And therefore, no two humans possess equal means of excercising their will upon the world. Therefore, claiming 'equal rights for all' (to be bestowed by the STATE no less! Which is another phenomenon of power altogether!) is a fallacy of catastrophic ramifications. As Link said, equal rights are a phantom, an illusion of security to give the weak of society a false sense of empowerment. Rights have nothing to do with race or skin colour, they have to do with one's ability to influence and subjugate others. But the ARTFUL subjugator shall make their subjugation seem appealing. When President Bush (and any other state leader) says that he shall protect and watch over American citizens, he essentially says that they are under his domination, and are subject to his rule. However, the weak will usually jump at such a promise of security, and thus his subjugation is interpreted rather as patronage. His dominance is viewed as a positive.... the benevolent dictator ;)

Absolutely
Nothing
Wrong
With
That

Now, to bring it back to the boys in question. While I speak from total ignorance of them personally, I imagine they are act out of frustration of being powerless within their own hierarchy (as many others have already stated). Theirs is an impotent gesture of resentment. Resenting their society's unwillingness to support their weakness. There's nothing wrong with being weak, indeed varying levels of strength are vital for maintaining a working social hierarchy. However, the usurpation of 'false', illusory, synthesised power by weaklings is something that I think that those who possess 'real' power should not tolerate. It muddies the structure of the hierarchy. As such, these would-be usurpers and self-gratifiers-out-of-indignation should be made an example of. The weak should accept their place, and the strong should not 'abuse' them needlessly. No guilt, no sin, no good nor evil. Just the strong ruling the weak, wisely and practically.

[ 01-26-2005, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

Some people are just sick.

If anyone tryed to do that to Sox, or even that lazy bugger Rip, I'd flay them alive, and beat them to death, slowly.

Unfortunately things like this go on all too often and even worse, with minimal punishment to the people who do it.

Recently here in Tucson a woman was charged with varying degrees of child endangerment after dousing herself and her three year old daughter in lighter fluid and then setting fire to her house.
She was severly burned but lived to face the consequences and the child was miraculously unharmed other than being frightened and traumatized before being rescued by a local firefighter.

I sometimes wonder if the punishment ought to fit the crime (like torching those teens over 30% of thier bodies).

Ugg, that woman must have been totally deranged Violet. At least the only one harmed physically was her. That's almost considered a good story in comparison with some of the things I hear and read on the news. Like that freak who killed some woman and cut out her baby and tried to pass it off as her own. I swear I hope they put her away for life, she has quite a messed up background and flushed baby hamsters down the toilet in front of her kids. Such a lovely one... :(

I am sure she isn't in her right mind. Above all, I hope that her child is never returned to her custody, no matter how much rehabilitation she goes through. Sterilize her while they are at it too I say.
I know about the baby-from-the-womb theft you mentioned but had no idea about the hamsters. Sometimes a deepeer look into the psyche of killers is just what we don't need. Who knows how messed up her kids are going to end up over it.
Definite kids to pray for, that's for sure.

But with all due respect, why? What are you afraid of? That it will someone 'corrupt' you or something? Forbidden knowledge?

[ 01-26-2005, 08:57 PM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

Poor cats! We had a story when i was 9 years old we had a cat we loved wery much and some kids hang it with a rope under a bridge for all to see, :( i was so angry that i used a hammer and hurt one of the kids wery hard so i went to some kinda "talks" with the police but i dont think they do this again :(
Anyway i think "burning" living kitties is allmost worse poor them!!!

[ 01-26-2005, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: Megabot ]

But with all due respect, why? What are you afraid of? That it will someone 'corrupt' you or something? Forbidden knowledge? </font>[/QUOTE]I can't speak for Voilet, only myself. For me sometimes it can be too much, too much violence and death on the news, and you watch it every day, and sometimes if it goes indepth, re a killer's mind, it can just get overwhelming. It'd be an enigma if it happened rarely, we'd all be interested and curious how a person could do such a thing, but when you see sick stuff on the news everyday, it just gets to be too much, and kinda redundant. I.E., I do think people who are violent have a childhood past that may explain it. Some say, Oh but so-and-so had loving parents who doted on him, well I say even THAT can be wrong, if a parent has absolutely no discipline no matter what their kid does. Of course to me that also does not excuse, as we all have a choice what we are, what we do, in our lives. And I don't care if killers get the death penalty, or jail time, as long as they are taken out of the public, so as to not cause harm to more innocent people or animals or whatever.

Just gets so frustrating for me, seeing the news and all the f-'ed up things that go on, it really changes my thoughts re humanity. It is disheartening to say the least. But of course I also realize that the news likes to only show scandalous, intense things. I know civilized humanity still exists, and this is what I stand for. Screw "human nature" and all that crap, that is unevolved humans from the past. We learn ever year that goes by as humans, and evolve. Those that cannot control their emotions, and kill and do sick things to kittens, are to me, still in the caveman ages, unevolved, using basic animal instincts instead of human intellect, logic, and control. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Woops, there go your Christian principles (IIRC) out the window [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img] </font>[/QUOTE]<font color=plum>You're right, <font color=red>Vaskez</font>, that is a direct violation of my Christian principles. But I have acknowledged this before and I know from personal experience how I react when my children are threatened. Had that boy actually kicked my son in the face, I know for a fact that I would have slapped HIM in the face as hard as I could so HE could see what it felt like. Yet at the same time, I can admit (from a rational POV) that such an action is even more abhorrent because I am an adult and should have better control of my emotions. Still, even though I know it is wrong, I also know that is exactly what would have happened. I also freely acknowledge that I would have to answer for any such action when I stand in Judgement before God after my death.

But as <font color=white>Heiro</font> pointed out, I am simply acknowledging my own "animalistic" response to a threat or danger to my child. None of us are perfect, and I recognize my weakness (from a Christian POV) in this situation.</font>