Paths & Lakes
 

Well then, I finally managed to find out the secrets of paths, rivers, lakes and all that stuff. Although there is no 100% convincing solution, I personally would give the approach with walls 90%:

http://one.xthost.info/Dinonykos/Hel...CobbleLake.gif

With backgrounds, you could do something more graphically convincing, but it would be at least thrice the effort, so I will follow the wall approach... :D

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

Wow, that is incredible! You did that with walls?!

I did think that it was possible to do with walls - but probably not the default type (which is what I was using). But now you have done it and proved it for us! :D

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

You need one of the extended wall formats. I will post a grid for "background" walls sooner or later.

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

That is incredible! Perhaps I should look into the different wall types. I had figured one type was as good as another and just used the default.

ST

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

Looks great, Dinonykos. :D

I just happened to be working on the same thing yesterday. :) I have an underground pond and stream that I had done as backdrops, but have started to redo as walls, using the hyper walls.:)

I've said it before, anything you can do with walls, you can do with backgrounds and vice versa. The caveat is that for some things may be more work than the other while the other may look a little nicer. :D:D:D

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

I was done with this little animation a while ago, but let's just say that sometimes Real Life comes along and kicks you in the rear.

This is my example of an underground lake. I had originally worked on this as backdrops for a yet unreleased mod. I decided to re-do my project using walls. It took three walls to accomplish this effect. I was going to have a stream coming in or going out of the lake, but that would be 3 more walls.
http://one.xthost.info/elminster/DC_cave_anim.gif
I don't think there is any savings on the amount of art done by choosing walls over backdrops, but it is simpler to code in DC. :D:D:D

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

That looks very nice, Manikus. Only the water surface does not really convince me.

In this case, I respectfully disagree, but this is certainly also depending on art style and working processes.

Yep. Handling backdrops is more difficult in the DC editor also in my opinion. Furthermore, as far as I know, changing backdrops in game does not work, does it?

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

Dang, it seems that everyone has their own set of lakes now! :) (Except me... :( ) One of these days...

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

I must admit I do not now if the "hyper format" is already included in the newest config.txt file. If it is, it should be no problem for you to get one of those lakes :) .

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

The hyper wall format is in the most recent version of the config.txt file available through the CVS at SourceForge, but not in the one the default DC download, as that pre-dates hyper walls. :)

I'll attach it for everyone's convenience. :D

About the water...I know. :) There's a reason for that in the original mod it was designed for, but for the new application I need to work on that. I'm sure it's obvious by the look, but this whole thing is hand-drawn, no rendering at all, so I've got a bit of work to do to get the water looking better. :D

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

Okay, then I post the template (incl. grid) for 640x480 resolution:

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/1...ertmpltxr9.png

The yellow parts of the grid mark where a "normal" wall should be placed.

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

Thanks for reposting this, Dininykos. :) I know that when I get around to doing path and stream wallsets, it will be your guidelines that make it look decent. :D

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

I have a special grid for floors, but I have to change to another computer to post it... :D I will probably post that one tomorrow.

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

I believe I already have that...assuming that you mean this one.

http://one.xthost.info/elminster/Image1.png

This is another excellent resource that I find indespensible. :)

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

Pardon me for being dense, but the issue I had was trying to make sense of the offsets (which I see below the hyper wall template). Do they just get added to the top-left corner to place the piece properly? And I see this is an example of the 5 distant wall type. To make a brand new wall type, you would have to make the template with 5 or 7 walls, and count pixels to get the offsets in place properly for the walls in all the possible positions that show from a standard template (for all the walltypes A thru P)?

Has anyone made a brand new walltype?

ST

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

You are pardoned. :D I'm just teasing you, I don't think it's an issue of being dense, I think the wall formats are complicated things that were never explained by CocoaSpud.

The offsets are applied to the coords, while the wall_rect is that particular wall part in the graphics file.

As for 5 or 7 distant walls, that is up to the person at time of creation of the format. You can easily have both for the same wall format by changing the size of one of the graphics, so DC knows which to apply to what. For example, if the new wall format is 5 distant walls and measures 400x800, to use 7 distant walls, you would need to change one of the dimensions to say, 416x800. (Keep each dimension a factor of 16 to avoid issues with the editor.)

Edited to add: Check out this thread to get some good visual guides for how walls work in the viewport.

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

Kinda... I made a wall template based on the BG template you posted. It will be self-explanatory after I posted it.

Perhaps I should have removed the chords from the template, since I am not sure if they represent the newest, correct version. The config.txt file Manikus attached should be quite correct, so please use that version.
BTW, I assume that walls E, B and C are perhaps still one pixel to low (at least they are in relation to my backgrounds if I make them vertically symmetric), but I left it that way because it was similar in the default walls... :D

That was a challenging thread... generations of DCers will tell about this one!!! :D :D :D

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

Wow, that's a nice template! :D If only, er, I could understand it, eh, well... :( (Gee, there are lots of frames there, and I guess some of them overlap on others?)

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

It is quite simple, Uatu. As I wrote, the yellow sections are identical to the default walls:

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/8...stwalls3rf.png

It should even be possible to write a script for e.g. Photoshop or to write a programm to turn a default wall into a hyperwall, however, even with copying and pasting in PSP or Paint it is quite quickly done.

Anyway: There is no particular system behind the other colours (green, red, blue). But e.g. the blue section of Wall E will overlap with an adjacent Wall in the Editor/Game. Same with Wall O/G: Everything left or right of the yellow section will overlap with adjacent walls!

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

These examples illustrate the advantage quite good:
http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/9...exampleri7.png
http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/4...xample2jz9.png

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

If it helps anyone at all, here is the hyper wall guide that I made. Unfortunately, I can only show a flattened version, but if anyone likes this, I would be more than happy to attach the layered version in either Photoshop or Paint Shop Pro formats.

http://one.xthost.info/elminster/man...yper_walls.png

The dark blue is where your walls go. The light blue is always the wall next to the default area. Please note, I've gone one step beyond Dinonykos and changed the default wall by adding one pixel so that it is now symmetrical above and below the horizon line.

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

No I am confused! Isn't it the DARK blue area where the default walls go? And the cyan is the overlapping area? :(

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

You are absolutely correct. I've fixed that in the above post. That's what happens when I try thinking before my cup of tea. :D (And sometimes after my cup of tea)

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

This is the "floor grid". The red lines mark the contact of the respective (not shown) wall with the ground.
http://one.xthost.info/Dinonykos/Template_Floors.png

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

I have heard in certain places of secret learning, in dark dangerous places, that this existed - this most sacred and ancient grail of learning - the famed "floor grid wall template".

:D:D:D

Thanks a bunch, Dinonykos. Now I'm going to try and make some 'round' walls with an apprpriate door to have a Mage's Tower. :)

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

Yep, that is also possible with this grid. Some might comment that the circles shown are not perfect. But to me this was the best compromise between cyclic form and the DC perspective.

A round tower is not that trivial at least if it shall stand seperated from other buildings. I remembered that we already discussed round walls here:
http://www.ironworksforum.com/forum/...d+walls&page=3

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

You guys make me look like a untalented hack! :)
Eh, anyway, I think my specialty is getting to be characters and items....

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

Well, considering you're the one that has actually released a demo, and we haven't, I guess we could say the same to you. ;)

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

Yaaargh, things are getting complicated... ;)

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

I know I've mentioned this before, but by complicated, you mean fun, right? :D:D:D

Dinonykos, any ideas for round walls that work the other way - like walking through a giant pipe or more realistic sewer? I would love to do some round walls where the roundness is perpendicular to what you have already done. :) (Now that should be complicated. )

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

Yep! FDs Demo shows that you do not necessarily need any special wall formats to give a nice atmosphere... :D

When I got the lake and the cobblestoneroad to work, it was really a great success-feeling!

I think that is not that much "fun" :D :D :D , however, you will need several walls to make the crossings look realistic. And, as always, the most distant walls would perhaps not work perfectly.
I don't think you need me to get an idea how to do it, do you?

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

Probably not, but I am having a hard time figuring how to make the walls interact properly with the edges of the viewport.

I will try and post an example of my dilemma later this morning. I just have to figure out how to graphically express my problem. :D

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

I think this illustrates what I need help on figuring out.

The black box is the viewport. The red ellipse is the wall size and shape at the viewport.

The picture on the left is a big pipe, but I can easily understand how the wall interacts with the viewport edge. The picture on the right is a better size (Maybe still bigger than I would like), but I'm not sure of the way the wall will interact with the viewport.

http://one.xthost.info/elminster/Image1.pnghttp://one.xthost.info/elminster/Image2.png

In the next set of images, I've included a blue square that represents the near wall. The smaller red ellipses are the size and shape of the walls at that distance.
The one on the left corresponds to the the left image above and the image on the right corresponds to the right image above.

http://one.xthost.info/elminster/Image3.pnghttp://one.xthost.info/elminster/Image4.png



(Depending on how your browser displays the images, left may equal top and right may equal bottom. :D )

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

I'm with you on this one. I'm astounded by the artwork that I see regularly here, and I try to draw up icons (or god forbid walls/sprites/smallpics) looks like my 4 yr old daughter drawing with crayons...
only she's better :D

ST

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

I used to feel the same way every time someone posted stuff here or uploaded new stuff for FRUA (now I only do part of the time).
But, then I took my vitamins, said my prayers and worked out hard to develop these 24 inch (artistic) pythons! :D
Now, I body slam my way through icons, clothesline the backdrops and pile-drive the walls. :D:D:D

Seriously, though, I don't have much natural talent at this, I just work really hard, practice, think about it a lot, practice, am willing to try new things and practice. :ninjas"

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

http://one.xthost.info/Dinonykos/Sewer2.png
This is all I can come up with so far, Manikus. If I find time tonight, I might post a tested and functioning grid...

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

You should be able to complete this by copying and pasting if you don't want to wait... :D

There has some additional work to be done for crossings. I assume you will need at least five walls: One regular that you use inside the pipe, and two for a left and two for a right turn. Two, because you might need a connection for the inner and a further for the outer side of a curve/crossing...

Perhaps with some tricks, 3 wall could also be enough.

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

Wow! Thanks a lot. :D I was only looking for a little advice, but I'll take one of your awesome templates any time. :D:D:D

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

I had no time to improve the grid yesterday, sorry. Maybe today (if my wife does not give birth... :D )...

Re: Paths & Lakes
 

As I seem to be saying a lot, don't worry about DC. :) Enjoy the important stuff. :D We'll still be here when you get a chance to 'play' again. :D:D:D