1e Worldhack
 

This has been something I've been thinking about for a long time. :)

The goal of this project is to make a version of Dungeon Craft that is 1e (First Edition) AD&D (Advanced Dungeons & Dragons) consistent and compatible.
This will include art for the races and classes in 1e that are not currently in DC. It will also mean adding races and classes to DC. Assuring that all tables represent 1e is another goal.

This will be an ongoing project that may end up with editing of source code in furthering the 1e cause.

I will be starting a Google Group for this project. If you're interested in participating, respond here or PM me and I can send you an invitation to the Group.

Re: 1e Worldhack
 

Why not make this the standard version, and then have a 2e worldhack instead? :)

Re: 1e Worldhack
 

Well, because we would have to rewrite the magic code. I've already added the half-orc (started with the easiest part) and I may be able to add a barbarian and assassin that are pretty workable, but the rest will not be their true selves to a lesser or greater degree.

On a related note - I spent a couple of hours trying to figure out why thief skills and backstab were not working. Wow! There is so much code. Not only can I not figure out why the thief skill only work on 1-5, I can't even find where backstab is implemented. (Hmm, just had a little epipheny - 1-5 is the range for backstab multipliers, maybe those numbers somehow got plugged in in the wrong spot...)

Re: 1e Worldhack
 

Why would the magic code have to be rewritten? I think magic was basically the same in 1e and 2e.

Re: 1e Worldhack
 

I t would have to be rewritten to allow illusionists and to allow rangers access to mage spells. It is hardcoded in that only magic users may use magic user spells. If you give another class the ability to use them, either it won't work, or you have to take the ability away from magic users. :(

Besides, I already feel like I control the destiny of DC far too much. Switching over tto 1e as the default would be beyond what I'm comfortable doing with CocoaSpud's program, especially considering recent events.

Re: 1e Worldhack
 

Oh - did something happen recently?

If CocoaSpud wanted the program to be 2e, then that would be fine to pursue... but if he wanted the program to be more in tune with FRUA, then 1e would seem better to me (I dunno, maybe he has an opinion on this).

If it is the former, then ya - a 1e worldhack sounds good to me. :)

Re: 1e Worldhack
 

Well, it wasn't so much of an issue with it being 1e or 2e, as it is an issue of it being FRUA compatible. Like if we change experience required to get to the next level for a character, that doesn't effect an imported game from FRUA, but if we change the magic system, I think that it does. Basically, we can manipulate databases and add stuff without altering how DC interacts with FRUA. So that is pretty much what we have now, minus the ranger spells working correctly.
So, I would think that going away from that should be the hack.

And, I can't name names at this point or say anything is definite, but one of the developers may be able to get enough done for a new release and keep doing enough for regular updates. Nothing is for sure at this point, but they seemed to think that they will have enough free time to do some coding. :)

Re: 1e Worldhack
 

Well - I guess having the rangers cast magic-user and druid spells was how FRUA worked, too, at least.

I guess that one could have importing from FRUA to DC still work with added monks, illusionists, half-orcs, etc. - might get more complicated, though, I am not sure. But if adding these guys is a bit off from the original DC vision, well - I guess a hack will do nicely, then. (If it doesn't contradict too much, being part of the original DC would be good, too! Might attract more interested players!)

But about more releases/updates - great! Always looking forward to that :D

Re: 1e Worldhack
 

I think adding the 1e stuff to DC that we can do would be great. I just don't want to have to change what's already there.

If we have extra stuff, FRUA will still import fine. But, if we change the way DC handles magic, I don't think FRUA will import so well any more. Of course, if we could figure out a way to add illusionists on top of what we already have... :)

Let's for now, call 1e a worldhack. But, if we can figure out how to implement it without ruining the import of FRUA, then it becomes the default DC. :D

Re: 1e Worldhack
 

Yeah! :D

I think that making rangers work (i.e. their magic) would be a good first step in this direction...

Re: 1e Worldhack
 

Ranger magic not working may be a bug. If it is a bug, then that means that other classes can also have magic user spells and then it's just figuring out a way to limit those spells and then we can have illusionists. :) Of course, we'll need to create all of their spells, do all of the spell art and add a bunch of stuff to the GPDL so that the splls work. :D

As a non-C++ programmer, I should be done in a day or two. ;). (Plus or minus a lifetime.) :D:D:D

Seriously though, if the ranger issue is just a bug and not an issue that CocoaSpud had never gotten working, we could be going somewhere.

For all of the new classes, we will need to add a lot special abilities ot GPDL. I haven't even looked at this part of the code, and I don't think it can be done with the txt files, since DC doesn't really pay that much attention to them.

Re: 1e Worldhack
 

In a way, it does seem easier to get illusionists done than any other class (since they are essentially magic-users with different spell/XP/HD tables and different spells).

Monks and assassins will have to have special abilities added somehow.

Re: 1e Worldhack
 

I wish I knew more about what I was doing. :) It may be that adding special abilities is the easiest thing to do...
Of course, there is then linking them to the right class at a specific level, which seems harder to me.

I can't really conceive an easy way to do Illusionist spells without another flag being added to the editor and databases. That will be a lot of work.

Re: 1e Worldhack
 

Ah - Yeah, I don't really know what is going on inside, anyway. :) I hope it is easy, in any case!

Re: 1e Worldhack
 

I don't even mind if it's hard, if it's something I can figure out or at least come close enough that I can convince somebody to help me do the last little bit. :)

Re: 1e Worldhack
 

This explanation is from my fuzzy memory (which may not be correct) of the 2nd edition illusionist (which might not be what you want).

A lot of the illusionist spells would boil down to simple game mechanics (that may or may not be active at this time). For example, most of the illusionist spells would be a morale check, like audible glamor or phantasmal force. And the more powerful spells could grant a penalty to the check. Some of the higher level spells that make "quatsi-real" creatures would be like summoning spells.

Now, to use this against the player(s) outside of combat would require more creativity on the mod designer; but it would be like some of the strange stuff they put in the Goldbox games. An example of this would be the black circle mage who casts a fireball at you and you dispel it. I still haven't figured out if the GPDL scripts let you remove a spell from a characters spell book or not, but I haven't tried DC much lately. :(

ST

Re: 1e Worldhack
 

We're talking about the 1e illusionist, and to be honest I don't know how different they are from the 2e, but I will get to that part of the book soon enough. :D:D:D

I seem to recall, so this may be faulty, but when you dispel the fireball, you don't lose the spell. I think the game only checked if you had it memorized.

Re: 1e Worldhack
 

What would call the project we are working on a 1e/2e hybrid?

Re: 1e Worldhack
 

Yes. :) I've seen people (including myself at times) refer to it as 1.5e, though it would be more accurate to say it's 1.75e. :)

Re: 1e Worldhack
 

Illusionists in 2E are simply specialist Mages, they use the same spells and so on. They get the usual 2E specialist benefits for their school of magic. (I have the 2E PHB, so I know this is correct.)

Edit:
I looked at the Wizards of the Coast old edition downloads, nearly everything there was 2E. There was not a lot that was useful here,
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads

Re: 1e Worldhack
 

It would be great if we had flags to check in the spell editor for each of the schools of magic, then we could play (2e) illustionists, necromancers, evokers, etc. :D Plus, you'd be able to take care of the 1e Illusionists, too.

The downloads there aren't that useful for 1e, it's true. :) But, they are a good starter for anyone interested in 2e.

Re: 1e Worldhack
 

feature request???

ST

Re: 1e Worldhack
 

Yes, added quite a while ago. :D:D:D

Re: 1e Worldhack
 

If you are planning something that caters to both 1E and 2E, Group membership occurs only in 2E. For 1E it won't need to be toggled off, it can just be ignored. You could have Group membership included in the descriptions of all classes. Groups don't exist in 1E hence 1E code simply won't recognize it.

Ditto anything else that exists only in 2E.

Re: 1e Worldhack
 

Right. There would just be check boxes that remain unchecked. :)

Re: 1e Worldhack
 

Illusionists in 1e were something like magic-users that had a different spell list (notably, magic-users had 1st to 9th level spells, while illusionists had 1st to 7th level spells). Although they were called illusionists, their spells weren't all illusion-based; some other interesting spells (like chromatic orb) were included in their lists as well.

Also notably, some spells were found in both the magic-user and illusionist spell lists, but at different levels (for example, phantasmal force was fairly high level for the magic-user, but low level for the illusionist). Additionally, all 1st-level magic-user spells were also memorizable as 7th-level illusionist spells (although why anyone would want to do this completely escapes me).

In 2e, magic-users became mages, and gained ALL wizard spells (they could learn or memorize anything), while illusionists lost the ability to memorize certain schools of spells (er... was it invocation/evocation and necromancy?), instead gaining bonuses when casting spells of illusion/phantasm and also gaining an extra spell to memorize each day from that same school. (Along with illusionists, 7 other specialist wizards came along: abjurers, conjurers, diviners, enchanters, invokers, necromancers, and transmuters).

As a result of this, once-illusionist-only spells like chromatic orb, prismatic sphere, and so on, were now all available to the mage, which rather changed things a bit. Additionally, spells seem to have defaulted to the lowest level of the magic-user or illusionist spell lists for the 2e wizard spell lists (i.e. phantasmal force is a 1st level spell now).

3e actually sort of regained some of 1e's characteristics (i.e. certain spells could be different levels from the viewpoint of different classes).

Re: 1e Worldhack
 

Illusionists had no access to Invocation/Evocation, Necromancy and Abjuration. The only bright side is that Shadow Magic spells could mimic lower level evocation spells.

Re: 1e Worldhack
 

Guess I forgot Abjuration :D

Of course, as a result, spells that used to be unique to illusionists (for example, chromatic orb) became unusable by them in 2e (because of the schools, which were already decided in 1e).

Re: 1e Worldhack
 

Good stuff guys. :)

Uatu and Shadow Stranger, if you guys don't mind I'm going to add this to the Wiki. :D

Re: 1e Worldhack
 

Sounds great to me :D