Questions concerning 1e
 

Is the correct max level for assassins 14 or 15?

Also, according to the 1e Player's Manual, Thieves cannot use bows or crossbows - is this overturned somewhere else in 1e?

Do fighters gain more than 1 attack per round as they gain experience levels? Can they sweep?

I'm only about a quarter of the way through the 1e Player's Manual (creating tables in excel and taking notes), so I'm sure I'll have more questions. :)

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

Fighters gain one additional attack every two rounds at level 7. At level 13 or 14 it is one per round. Same story with Paladins and Rangers.

Rest of the stuff I don't know about.

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

The max level for assassins is 15 (Grandfather of Assassins) - but Iuz is level 16. :)

Fighters and paladins get 3/2 melee attacks/round at 7th level, 2 at 13th level, but rangers get 3/2 at 8th level and 2 at 15th level.

I think that all fighter-types can sweep puny creatures up to their level.

Player's Handbook:

Thief: club, dagger, dart, sling, sword (short, broad, long).

Unearthed Arcana:

Thief: bow (short), caltrop, club, crossbow (hand), dagger, dart, garrot, knife, sap, sling, sword (broad), sword (falchion), sword (long), sword (short).

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

Also, just as reference for the other classes in UA:

Cleric: club, flail, hammer, mace, staff, lasso, sap, staff sling
Druid: aklys, club, dagger, dart, garrot, hammer, lasso, sap, sling, scimitar, spear, staff, staff sling, sword (khopesh), whip
Magic-user/Illusionist: caltrop, dagger, dart, knife, sling, staff
Thief-acrobat: as thief, plus lasso and staff
Monk: aklys, atlatl, axe (hand), bo stick, caltrop, club, crossbow (any), dagger, garrot, javelin, jo stick, knife, lasso, pole arm (any), sap, spear, staff, sword (falchion)
Bard: club, dagger, dart, garrot, javelin, knife, lasso, sap, scimitar, sling, spear, staff, sword (bastard), sword (broad), sword (falchion), sword (long), sword (short)

Everyone else can use any weapon, except in that cavaliers/paladins will not use pole arms, missile weapons, and other such weapons that are usually used by lower classes.

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

Thanks, Uatu. I figured that some of my questions were going to be resolved in Unearthed Arcana. :) Some of the issues are just additional information, but some are typos, e.g. the correct max level for assassins.

I'm going to assume that the answers to all of my questions were from Unearthed Arcana. :) So, when I'm done with the Player's Manual, I'll go to that book next, instead of to the Dungeon Master's Guide as I had planned.

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

I remember barbarians get 1d10 hp...

ST

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

A d10 is what Fighters and Paladins get, Barbarians get a d12. :) You know, 'cause they're so tough after pushing that wheel around for all of those years. ;)

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

Ah... a Conan reference...

I read some of the books by the original Conan author (not Sir Arthur Conan Doyle ;)), and they were ok. The movies were a little cheesy with "ah-nuld" as Conan.

ST

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

Unfortunately, there will not be any new Conan books, at least not by the original author, as he passed away earlier this year. He was also the author of "Wheel of Time" series - Robert Jordan.

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

Unearthed Arcana had lots of great stuff... :) The cavaliers and barbarians were a bit too strong, though (and the thief-acrobats a bit flaky)... The paladins became a sub-class of cavaliers, too, which I just sort of ignored for my own campaigns.

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

I haven't gotten there yet, but what? Paladins a subset of Caveliers? That's ridiculous. Just plain goofy. :)

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

Did I mention I never liked cavaliers much? :D

(I think that Gygax (may he rest in peace) really liked knights, essentially :) They were pretty powerful in his other game, Lejendary Adventure, as well.)

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

I like Caveliers just fine - as the level 7 title for Paladins. :D:D:D

I'm not surprised to hear that about Gygax. I think many of the old school miniatures' gamers were either into knights or Napoleon (or both).

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

Well, that is just my (educated?) guess, of course. :)

But in the Lejendary Adventure game, having the Chivalry skill not only gave you knowledge of noble manners and such, it also gave rather large attack/damage bonuses for combat!

(I guess that non-nobles would have to resort to ignoble tactics like using bows/crossbows/slings/staff slings, traps, or trickery to defeat nobility! Or perhaps a heat metal spell would work very well instead :D )

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

I recall reading that he was a big fan of the Arthurian legends.

You know, thinking about Gygax and this topic, I'm kind of surprised that Tolkein didn't have knights in his tales. I know that his stories are about the common "man" as hero, but you would think that there would be a knight as support, or a knight gone bad... :)

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

Hmm - well, I guess that the various armed men of the various nations were knights, of a sort - not quite Arthurian, but... And then we had those dark "bad knights," as well (they had armor, didn't they?)...

But yeah, I guess a Tolkein-based AD&D world would not really have cavaliers as a choosable class. I guess we could choose from:

Fighter
Ranger (Aragorn, etc.)
Magic-user/Illusionist (Gandalf, etc.)
Thief (Bilbo, etc.)

Of course, normal humans/elves/dwarves/hobbits would really only be able to choose from fighter or thief (mostly just fighter), really (seeing that you had to have special bloodlines or special origins to be the more magical classes).

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

I think that if everyone in your army has armor, you're not a knight, you're a soldier.

I think maybe the Nazgul could be Anti-Paladins. Boromir and Faramir are the closest things to knights, even if Faramir is also the head of the Southern Rangers. (Faramir is kind of a Ranger/Cavelier multi-class.)

I think the elves are fairly magical - not that all of them are magic-users, but that some of them are, certainly all of the leaders and elders.

I'd never really thought about knight's or the fool's errand in regards to Tolkein before, but it seems that Bilbo/Frodo is the corollary (not perfectly) of Parcival. Gandalf and Merlin are easy to tag. There is no direct corollary between Arthur, Lancelot or Guenevere - I would say that Aragorn is more like Sir Gawain.
Hmmm, someone must have written about this, considering how famously Tolkein talked about creating a new myth for the ages. I guess I have some research to do and blog posts to write. :D

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

It is surely an interesting subject to muse over :)

Not sure how much magic the elves had in Tolkein's myths - only Gandalf, Radagast, and Saruman actually seemed to have usable magic power...

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

The elves forged magical rings (so did the dwarves). Elrond could heal and was clairvoyant, clauraudient and pescient. Galadriel had all kinds of charm and command magic going on. Though, I will admit that I don't know how much was them and how much were the rings of power that they wore. There were all kinds of magical abilities inherent to elfdom as well - the far-seeing, passing without a trace, etc. Not overtly magical, but definitely so by AD&D standards. What about the elven-made cloaks and waybread? :)

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

Well - yeah, the elves and dwarves could forge magical things (although they had help), and the elves were sort of enlightened, which I guess gave them heightened senses/empathy/etc., but...

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

But, you do have a good point in that no one was 'magical' in the Dungeons and Dragons way. :) Well, in the Silmarillion, there's some magic during the first and second ages...

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

Ah - I only vaguely read that one (probably while standing in a bookstore)...

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

I keep meaning to get the audiobook and finish it - I've only read about half-way through. :)

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

Actually, I don't even have my own copy of the trilogy (or the Hobbit, although I did) - there are so many versions out there, I never know which one to get! (I don't want a movie cover...)

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

Movie covers are bad. I have the '70s reprints that I've had since the early '80s. They're all beat up. :D My brother-in-law has the fancy shmancy leather bound edition that came in a box... I wager that he gets no more enjoyment out of them than I do. I also have the audio versions (unabridged). :D:D:D

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

I wish I bought the books BEFORE the movies came out... :(

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

I still see a lot copies of the old books. But, there are a ton of used bookstores in Portland.

You could try a request at powells.com. They're kind of whacky and they just might search through their stock for an old copy. :)

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

But... but... I like NEW books! :D

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

There is always the leather bound collectors edition - I think it was only like $60 or $70. :D

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

Eek! That's a no-go for me, then.

(I had to beg my wife for months to let me buy a $70 (practice) sword...)

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

You could always look on eBay...

Hopefully, you can find some that do not require begging. ;)

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

Back to page one of this thread:
Cavaliers are heavy powered but I read a letter in Dragon Magazine that said their liabilities balanced their assets. They can't retreat from combat, they must aid anyone without thought of reward&& (I forget which issue this letter was in.)

As for Middle Earth, Iron Crown Enterprises issued the Middle Earth Role Playing campaign. The only way to make it authentic is to have PCs who are one of the magic - wielding few. Opinion seems to be that it is fun even if it is not strictly authentic.

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

More for the sake of argument than anything else, do you recall who the letter was by? I mean if Gygax or Greenwood were writing it has a bit more weight than a fanboy. :) I only was in an adventure or two with them and they seemed overpowered. Also, remember that the AD&D folks thought that gnomes and halflings were balanced with the other races... I think that often players have a quite different perspective fromt he creators. :)

I've never played any of the LotR RPGs. I do have some of the cards for the collectible card game. :) We've talked in the forums here about doing a Middle Earth Worldhack, and each time we talk about it I always think about whether players can play the main characters from the stories or whether they (the main characters) will be NPCs or just mentioned in stories. This goes hand in hand with the magic level and who has access to it. But, even if the we allow Gandalf as a PC, how do we handle the magic? I'm a bit of a purist, so I would go for the low magic option with much of it being handled in events outside of combat or given to items to be used by PCs.

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

The 2nd editions optional rules/kit rules allowed for wizards that could use swords like Gandalf does in the mine of Moria.

ST

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

I personally never used the kits, or played with anyone who did.

I think it was a bit to far from 1e for me - you know - right towards Planescape. ;) (J/K)

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

Letter I don't recall the details of. But check Unearthed Arcana and see what the restrictions affecting Cavaleirs are: what must they do and what they cannot do.

You do have the option in MERP to restrict magic with corruption points. CPs are accumulated when you use magic too much, they could lead you into the path of Sauron.

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

I would want to restrict magic on the front end and not the back end in a Middle Earth setting. I mean, how many times in the books is a fireball cast? :D:D:D

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

Kits were a mixed bunch - some were rather stupid (peasant wizard, etc.) that had little or no benefit (+1 reaction or something stupid like that).

A few were more fun, like sub-classes (dwarven battlerager, halfling whistler, red wizard of Thay, etc.); of course, they might as well have been new classes (2e had a few, like the Viking berserker, runecaster, etc.).

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

I'm more inclined to use my own created kits/classes than the collective masses of characters they made in the 2nd edition

ST

Re: Questions concerning 1e
 

I've always kind of felt like the specialized kits were either a tool to enforce role playing or a crutch for people who didn't like role playing part as much as they like the dice rolling and loot gathering. It is up to the DM to set which tone will be used. I mean, I totally see the benefit in using a "Red Wizard of Thay" kit in an adventure that is responsive to that, i.e. it's either about Thay, the mechanisms of Thay, or gives the PC a positive or negative reaction etc for being a Red Wizard. But, what I would hate to see is a player take it and instead of role playing, be all "Red Wizard, Red Wizard". Like I said, I never played with kits, so I can't say for certain, but it seems like a bunch of extra crap. :)