WOW?
 

So I got this new(-er) desktop computer, and started the free 10 day trial of WOW. I think that it is a visually appealing game, and of course the multiplayer is nice (had some kid beat my 2nd level warlock with his 1st level warrior and then he said I suck... I think he'd'a thought twice about that if he knew I'm 6ft 4in ans 220 lbs, but I digress)

The problem that I have with WOW (other than the $15.00 price tag for standard monthly fee to play), is that it is the same kind of mindless quests that infest the RPG genre: Go to place X and bring back item Y or kill creature(s) Z. I must admit that it is entertaining enough (not enuff to spare the $15.00 when I'm crunched for money, so once the trials done, I'm done), and perhaps the quests are more involved later on; but the genre in genreal has quests that are cliche.

I'm hoping to get a more involved kind of quest scenario, similar to what I remember from the Villains Handbook TSR product. They have a bunch of examples/ideas for more involved gameplay and one I like is the idea of "every action has a consequence", like you kill a marauding bear, and its overly protective and blind to its evil Ranger protector comes looking for revenge, or you clear out a thieves guild (for fun and profit) and there is a power vacuum where any number of other groups (dopplegangers, other thieves, vampires, evil wizards who were in war with guild, ect) step in to fill the void. Heck, they may be strongly committed to dealing with the players who could do what they themselves could not, and may use ambush/betrayal techniques to do so.

Currently, I'm in a slow down of mod productivity due to trying to think outside of the box on quests and design.
I only hope that my mods hold up to not being the same kinds of over-done quests as I complain about ;)

ST

Re: WOW?
 

Higher level quests are just harder. :( A buddy of mine is really into WoW and like a year ago when they started to see membership fall-off, they made everything a lot easier so that people could get to higher levels faster.

On the other hand, he really likes it. He likes playing with his guild-mates. I'm sure there is a certain camaraderie that occurs that goes way beyond the scope of the game.

I can't wait for DC 2.0 when it's all multi-player. :)

Actually, I just found a (free) multi-player game called ForgottenWorld that is the old AOL Neverwinter Nights. That's right, Goldbox gaming online, multi-player style with Player versus Player areas. :D

I haven't done much yet, since I've been kind of slammed at school. But, this weekend I'm going to get playing. I'll let everybody know how it is.

http://www.forgottenworld.com

Re: WOW?
 

Hmm - looks interesting (wish they had screenshots/FAQ/etc. on the site, though). Tell us how it goes!

Re: WOW?
 

If you look in the forum, I think it's at the top in the welcome section, there are some links to Youtube videos of gameplay. :D

Re: WOW?
 

Doh! Oh, really? :(

Re: WOW?
 

Yup. Someone just capped their gameplay and put music to it.

Maybe we should do this with some DC play - I bet there are tons of people on Youtube that have never heard of us. :D

Re: WOW?
 

According to someone on the yahoo group, you can record your playing of DC...

ST

Re: WOW?
 

That would be according to Paul and me. :)

It works great, but is only viewable during playback in DC.

Re: WOW?
 

Hmm - someone should do it! Would be a good way to advertise DC, as it were. :)

Re: WOW?
 

I've played a little bit in FW now. :) They have two servers, 'Live' and 'Test'.

The Live server is pretty much just like the old NWN game but starting off in a different city. Actually, I'm pretty sure it's a different world, as they've changed the names of the attributes, presumably to avoid any issues with WotC. What can I say, it was kind of nostalgic, but the graphics are worse than FRUA.

I quickly hopped over to the Test server, moctly b/c I read a post about new graphics. It's definitely higher res, and could use the touch of some of us here. :D What was truly impressive is that they've updated the code so that instead of there being three wall distances, there are (I think) seven! THey're also doing something different with backdrops that allows them to have followable paths - it may be the trick for DC (which takes a lot of work), or it might be a new way of handling the backdrops.

This isn't an Open Source project and you can't download it and work on it yourself. But, magic works and they've got a functioning combat AI. I think they have even added spells not in FRUA (which has everything from the old NWN plus some).

I'm going to play some more and then make contact in their forums. :) The program is written in C# using the .Net 2.0 framework, so if I can get the code, I should be able to figure stuff out a little bit as C# is like hald-way in-between C++ and VB. :)

Edited to add:
I've played some more and looked around a bit and it seems that they are a company, not just a group of friends. i don't know if I'll offer to help until I find out what kind of 'company' they are. :)

Re: WOW?
 

commercial company means they prolly won't share code
:(

ST

Re: WOW?
 

That's what I need to find out - are they a bunch of friends who work as a 'company' for ease of use, or are they a company trying out a new product that they will want to sell later...

At this point, I'm guessing it's the former. This project has been around for a couple of years and they accept donations (to run the server).

I'm not too interested in sharing code - I don't think the spell code is similar between our two projects. I am interested in people who understand Goldbox gaming that might be looking for something to do...you know, come over here and help out. :) But, I'm also interested in the other route, too. The quality of art is, um, kinda low right now but doesn't need to be. :D I can fix some of that. If the graphic formats are similar to DC (or even to FRUA), they could have a whole new and improved look by this evening. :D:D:D

Re: WOW?
 

I've got DOSBox on the laptop running the goldbox games, and I'd rather play them than WOW. I've been playing Pool of radiance and champions of krynn. This has given me some ideas for DC, not only for things to do in my own mods, but also I thought about re-doing some of them (similar to manikus with SotSB). More on this later.

ST

Re: WOW?
 

My remake has turned into a sequel. :) Mostly because I've played SotSB so many times, I've had ideas of where I'd go I'd go with it for a long, long time. :D

It would be fun to remake one of the other ones, though. I had been thinking about collaboration type stuff for a while - we can't seem to get a new project up and running, but doing a remake, or converting some FRUA mods would be a whole 'nother thing, I think.

Re: WOW?
 

I'm thinking, ST, it would be pretty hard right now to do the Krynn games.

Re: WOW?
 

Yeah. We need a lot of new functions to do Krynn, starting with:

1. More class slots (including classes requiring changing classes later (i.e. Solamnic Knights, etc.)).
2. The ability to have bonus spells for clerics.
3. The ability to have bonus spells for magic-users based on the moons.
4. Ability to change races/classes (kender, etc.).

Incidentally, certain classes/races were left out of the old Goldbox games - specifically, the gnomish tinkers (probably because they are useless), the irda, and the minotaurs (some elf and dwarf subraces, too). And, of course, all evil classes were left out.

Some day, we could "fill in the blanks" with DC perhaps!

Re: WOW?
 

Yeah I know. But Pool of Radiance could be remade completely with same story/events/monsters and all new (someone elses) art.

ST

Re: WOW?
 

I think that Pool of Radiance would be doable - with DC at 1.0, that is. :)

As for the races left out and the evil classes, weren't those left out of the first two books of the 1e set (Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide)? Or do you mean out of the Krynn games? I haven't done more than start them. I have to admit that I've never even come close to finishing them. There were good books to read set in Krynn, I just never really wanted to play there. (But, I was a kid back then...I'll pull out of mothballs to take another look.)

Re: WOW?
 

The evil classes were included in the 1e Dragonlance Adventures book (i.e. clerics of evil, black robed wizards of high sorcery), but I think the extra races were left out (I don't remember, but at any rate, they weren't really important in the early Dragonlance books).

All the Dragonlance-specific classes (i.e., the tinker, the holy order of the stars, the wizard of high sorcery, and the knight of solamnia) were not in the player's handbook or in the dungeon master's guide.

The holy order of the stars and wizard of high sorcery classes were actually significantly different from the cleric and the magic-user or illusionist; each good/neutral/evil alignment (so there were six classes total) had different spell tables, hit dice, and XP tables, not to mention special abilities (for the priests) and different allowed spells; there were also special rules for maximum level.

(Abridged versions of the rules were included in the manuals that came with the Goldbox Krynn games; of course, the rules for evil characters were left out.)

To make all this possible in DC, we should first probably increase the number of classes editable :D

Re: WOW?
 

Gotcha. Thanks. :) I wasn't sure if you meant Krynn or not. I've only had one book for Krynn, I think it was called "Otherlands". I found for like a dollar at a bookstore and couldn't resist. :D I remember the class diferentiations in the books - different color robes for the mages depending upon good, neutral or evil, etc. But, I had never seen anything in the gaming books.

Re: WOW?
 

Ha ha - yeah, a dollar book is pretty hard to resist :D

The Krynnish classes were pretty interesting - for example, the good clerics started with 2d8 hp, which made them pretty hardy (more than a fighter even), if I remember correctly.

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Does Greyhawk have any special classes?

Re: WOW?
 

Well, only the special varieties of clerics/druids (as per Greyhawk deities). As Greyhawk was the "original" campaign for AD&D, it is by principle default.

However, in 2e, it seems that Greyhawk "revived" the old monk (and assassin?) classes that were kicked out of the 2e manuals, making them sort of "special" classes.

Re: WOW?
 

It would be very cool to have monks and assassins in DC. :)

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Sure would! Illusionists and bards would be nice, too :D

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I agree. :) For Illusionists, we're going to need a lot more spell graphics.

Re: WOW?
 

Well, once we have illusionists, we can start making them! :D

By the way, are thief abilities usable in DC right now? I.e., if I want my halfling thief with DEX 16 to pick a lock, can I grab the correct percentage to do this?

Re: WOW?
 

I do not know if thief skills are working or not. I don't know if saving throws are working or not. :) I suspect that saving throws might work, and that's how I feel about thief skills as well. FRUA didn't really use them, so I don't know if CocoaSpud modeled DC on FRUA in this aspect or went from the 1e/2e rules.

Re: WOW?
 

Hmm - as long as there is just some variable or something we can pull out for events, that would be good. Without thief abilities, the thief class is probably the most useless right now (in combat, backstab is a priority for them) - might as well just have a party of warriors, priests, and wizards :)

Re: WOW?
 

There are definitely thief abilities in the code. I am sure that they have numbers associated with them, I just think that they're hard coded and potentially wrong (because I know there is no pool of points for the player to distribute when the thief goes up in level).

If you keep after me about this, I will try and find out what the numbers are and all that.

I've got to got to bed soon, otherwise I'd do it tonight.

Re: WOW?
 

I think we can do without the pool of points (because it is hard to implement) and just use the standard 1e table instead (basically the same as the "average thief scores table" in 2e).

The average thief scores are still affected by things like race, dexterity, and armor, though (we can ignore armor for now).

But yeah, if you could check it out, that would be cool :D

Re: WOW?
 

Dunno if all of the scores are in the code, and I've never had any backstab attack, but at least the lock picking thief skills are implemented in the DC code. I dunno if they are using the correct numbers, but I know that they are there. Oh, and by the way, you can make items that boost the ability of a thief to open doors, but you cannot make items that just give another class (like say, a fighter) the ability to do so. Just thought of a trick, perhaps you can give a fighter some thief skills without having character change classes by giving the fighter thief experience... Will have to try this sometime.

ST

Re: WOW?
 

Hmm - any idea how to use those thief skills in events, etc.? :D

Re: WOW?
 

All of the thief skills are in the code. :) But, as I mentioned above I don't know the numbers that are associated with them. I wish I were not at school now (I don't liek the class I have today, but at least it's the last one before the final). I'll work on it when I get home.

Also, I haven't tested this out, but I think we should be able to create items that boost any ability and are usable by any particular class. :) I also think I might know how to check against a specific ability, but I need to sit down with DC and work it out. :D (If only I could run DC off of my thumb drive...I guess I need to put in a feature request.)

Re: WOW?
 

There's the easy way and the hard way. The easy way is with the "who tries" event, but this only lets you test thief skills and ability checks. The hard way is with logic block, but its not that hard to do and I can explain how if you need.

I don't know much about logic block, but I know it does numeric comparison fairly easily. In fact, as I was writing this post I got to thinkin' about ability checks which we can do in the 'who tries' event but I cannot remember off the top of my head if we can do modified ability checks like they have for proficiencies and/or psionic ability checks. The ability checks for proficiencies/psionics go something like this:

Navigation proficiency ------------ Int-2

Which means to successfully use the ability you would have to roll the characters Intellegence score (minus 2) or lower to use the ability correctly.

Logic block would allow for these kinds of checks for proficiency or psionic abilities. I just wish I had all my books here in Florida where I could reach them for reference becuz I don't remember the rules/tables for proficiencies

ST

Re: WOW?
 

You do realize that we can have a proficiency system in place with what DC already has...it's all about the ASLs. :) I'm not saying it would be easy, well, it wouldn't be that hard, just a lot of work. It becomes more difficult the more proficiencies you add, and it's harder to let the player pick, but still not undoable.
The idea is that you create an ASL that has a value assigned to it. This ASL would be associated with a character through an event or series of events in a chain.
You could also do 'packages' that the character could choose - a fighter could choose the "Defender" package or the "Berzerker" package.

If there is any interest, I'll try and get a working model.

Psionics, well, we could create the ASLs, but there aren't really the special abilities to back 'em up (yet).

Re: WOW?
 

So, I was convinced that the thief skills were in the game b/c there are abilities named for them and b/c oft the Who Tries? event. But, I don't see them in the source code. However, they could very well be abbreviated, as the savings throws are, and therefore kind of difficult to find. There are a lot of files with a lot of code. :)

Re: WOW?
 

Hmm - lots of things to think about :D

Did you implement thief abilities in the mod, Thieves' Run?

Re: WOW?
 

The thief skills are definitely in the code. :D It uses an abbreviation scheme, which is why I couldn't find it earlier. :) Phew!

The table is good with 1e, as are the adjustments for race and dexterity. :D

Since, I was in the code, I checked out Backstabbing and it seems to be in place, too. Though I don't see the thief actually having the backstabbing ability, but I'm not through looking (or testing out in DC). :D

Thieve's Run? Not really. I left all of the events as Autery created them. (This was an import of a FRUA mod.)

Re: WOW?
 

Yeah, and the items as well. I remember finding a MU scroll with spells and exiting the game to see if this was actually implemented.

ST