Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

<font color="plum">Kinda hard to argue the game doesn't promote real life violence when the perp admits he was trying to imitate the game.

Personally, I think games like this should not be rated - they should be banned. But I guess I'm just becoming a crusty old coot.</font>

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

To be honest, I think the people who are stupid enough to try and copy a game are the ones that should be banned, not the game itself. How dumb to they have to be to think it was a good idea?

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

As dumb as people who smoke to emulate a movie star?
As dumb as people who take up baseball after watching their hero smack a home run?
As dumb as a kid who picks up a guitar after watching music videos?
Imitation is a long established part of human learning. You learned to talk by imitating your parents. What goes in comes out.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

There are a great many who do not even consider immitating a video game. Sadly, for them, they face the strong possibility of games being censored or banned because of the idiots who make the news. (make the news meaning, they end up in the news, not those who produce the news. Those who produce the news simply go where the story seems to be.)

Personally, the addition of drugs, sex, and criminal violence in video games seems excessive in my opinion. The only thing accomplished by adding them is an increased tolerance for them in society and I don't see that as a good thing.

Just in case someone feels my comments are an attack on their views, I never said you had to agree with me.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

So So SoOooo nicely put :)



---

I think this shows that alittle common sense goes a lon~~~~~~g way. But seems common sense is out of fashion now, doesn't it? =P Its a game (and I think it says "do not try this at home (or it should :D ))


On the other hand...here come the hoardes and hoardes of parents who won't rest until games like these are banned. (which may ultimately be a good thing)- not because I don't like these games. In fact they're fun to play, but its a game. People need to be able to make that distinction, and sadly, as more and more people are demonstrating it (they're not able to). So a good thing because, things like this won't happen because of a game. People like those are liable to do things like this whether its by influence of game or movies or ______. But at least if the game was banned, people won't be able to give video games a bad rap because of stupid incidents like these .


D:

:hehe:

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

<font color="plum">The bold text really sums up my feelings towards games like this as well. I simply don't see any reason to create games that allow kids to vicariously experience these types of things. Because, at least with some, the video experience will eventually not be "thrilling" enough and they will want to try the real thing.

I just cannot condone a game that glorifies indulging in drugs, prostitution and criminal behavior in general.</font>

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

The point I was trying to make, in I admit not the best way, was that he must have known that stealing a taxi wasn't a very "good" or "right" thing to do, and is generally frowned on by society. But he was stupid enough to go and do it.

This is why I tend to not take part in discussions like this. I can't phrase my veiws in the way I would like.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Ban art? Not on my watch...

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

That's a very sad case of an immature, irrational mind that failed to distinguish between the moral vacuum that often occurs in a video game and the expected morality of established society. This kid shouldn't have been any where near a game like Grand Theft Auto in the first place, if his mind was so naive as to think it acceptable to try such things in reality.

However, I would like to think that his choices shouldn't spoil the right to play such games for those of us who can make such distinctions.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

If I ever decide to commit a crime I'll blame it on something from the media too. It could lighten my sentence. <i>"My client is the victim here, he was influenced by [media product]. How about community service and some time with a psychologist? Thanks you your Honor."</i>

Also any parents who let their kids play a Mature rated games should have their kids taken away. Come on, do you buy porn movies for your kids? No difference.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Self-satisfied expression gets better with practice. But even then you never know if the other person is understanding you correctly. ;)

I appreciated your contribution, as it took the conversation down a new route. :)

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

I don't think it's a defense, but a motive. It won't reduce culpability.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Hi Chewbacca.

Banning art is not the same thing as preventing the mass distribution of anti-social art. There is a difference between a) allowing everyone the right to speak freely, and b) making sure everyone's words are heard by everyone else.

No-one's saying the game shouldn't be made. (Cerek said he saw no reason to create it) At most people would say the game shouldn't be sold.

I make music. I can either make art for myself or for public consumption. It's not to be expected that all art is fit for public consumption.

Laws exist to prevent a person abusing their freedom to destroy others in society. If people can't self regulate their behaviour, they need to be regulated to protect those who cannot protect themselves. This is wisdom handed down from the most primitive of societies. Though the means by which we may destroy each other change, the essential need is the same.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

While I am all for freedom and liberty in this issue, I would have to agree. The rating system just doesn't work. And what's the point when a mother can buy them for her kid's birthday or christmas gift anyways? Certainly there needs to be a system to screen "gifts" presented to minors.

And most parent's are ignorant to the level of exposure in games like these in this day and age. Back in the day a video game was about space invaders or plumbers and hedgehogs. An R-rated game isn't limited the way an R-rated movie showing on HBO is. There is no time restriction (i.e. the game doesn't become playable and unlock itself after a certain hour such as when a kid should be in bed!) and furthermore there is no NCA-like organization censoring the airing of the game like there is with TV. Oh, there are parental locks on consoles and even MMO's (see WoW and EQ) but how many parents even know how to access them? Mine don't. There is currently only one screening process in purchasing these games and it is a broken one because anyone over the age of 18 can purchase it for a minor, all the while never realizing how similiar this is to buying beer for a child.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

There is nothing wrong with the rating system and everything wrong with retarded parents not monitoring what their kids are doing.

It's not hard, just check what your kids are doing. Are they taking drugs? Are they watching porn? Are they playing mature games?

It doesn't take much effort to tell if Manhunt or Grand Theft Auto is suitable for your children. Any parents who have so much as read the box should be able to tell, or if they're really slow and don't understand the words "MATURE" and "DEPICTION OF DRUG, ALCOHOL, and SEX", they certainly should be able to tell from five minutes of gameplay.

The argument about time doesn't work. Mature games are like adult dvds. If you have an adult dvd you can watch it at any time of the day, and it's your responsibility to keep it away from your kids. As far as I know, video games don't get streamed live on cable tv yet. Or at least that's what Microsoft told me when they sold me an XBOX console.

http://www.christianexaminer.com/Art..._Aug08_01.html

Even Christian websites are realizing it's the parents' responsibility to get involved. Parenting is hard, shifting the blame is easy.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Well, there's something wrong if 14 year old kids are still obtaining these. In theory, the system works but please, it's broken as far as games go. The TV system isn't flawless but circumstantially it works better. I agree, check what your kids are doing. I agree, the parents are where it starts. But the video game industry changed in the last few years.
There were little (if any) video games that had ratings back in the day, and we cannot point the finger at parents simply because they are ignorant to the fact that video games are now rated like movie titles. It is the game companies that skirt this issue, because they know that if the restrictions were 100% adhered to, they would lose alot of money.

I will state again, this does not erase all responsibility from parents, but at some point the government needs to intervene, at least even running some commercials about "What games is your teen playing?" or offer some education classes for old-fashioned guardians who are "out of the loop" and cannot fathom all this newfangled thechnology. I'd hardly call all parents who haven't realized this danger "retarded".

The time thing still holds merit IMO. The R-rated DVD shouldn't be in the hands of a minor anyways.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

And neither should M-Rated Games be in their hands either. Kids manage to get their hands on alcohol, so I suppose we should ban alcohol too. Oh! They also manage to get their hands on firearms. I guess we need to ban firearms!

Oh no! Some kids could get his hands on his parent's car keys and go for a joyride! Let's ban cars too!

What about lighters? Some kid could set fire to something. Let's ban lighters!

Do I need to go on, or can we simply agree "Let's ban it because a kid could get his hands on it" doesn't make much sense as an argument?

And no, the time argument still doesn't make sense. Kids shouldn't be in contact with these products so that would not be a restriction for kids, but for the legit adult customers. If you want to argue about limiting adults' access to adult products start another thread.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

I never said anything about banning it....

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

There are countless things used responsibly by many and abused by few; why single out video games? As Luvian said, it's a fantastic scapegoat for bad parenting.

If you can make up reasons to ban certain games, you can make up reasons to ban anything. It's also a little patronising to say that society needs help protecting itself, that we're all too weak and impressionable to decide for ourselves what to play or watch or drink, that we need it decided by a higher authority and imposed on us.

I've been playing violent video games for a long time, as I'm sure many members have, and I've never so much as contemplated harming another human being. The types of people prone to influence from video games and subsequently commit crimes because of them were messed up to begin with. Sure, the game may have given them an idea or two, but it rarely made them crazy in the first place.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Because it failed with Rock and Roll music.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Ah of course. :D Not forgetting the previous failure of prohibition as well.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

This just got added to my quotation library. Too true... as I strive to parent every day.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Very well said.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

1. It's being singled out, because it's a current event. The murderer didn't say he had bad parents, took drugs or was angry, he said he was checking out whether the theft was as easy in reality as it was in the game.

If we have a story about a kid being high on rohypnol doing evil he otherwise wouldn't, we'd be talking about rohies.

2. Who is a "good parent"? All parents screw up. Besides, it takes a village to raise a child. Parenting alone doesn't make a child wonderful or evil. Plenty of bad/absent parents result in beautiful people, and plenty of great parents have crims.

Whatever we as a society can do to self improve, we should do. The almighty dollar should stop being the sole motivator when people release art into society. Artists, creators and entrepreneurs need to wake up to their responsibility in shaping society.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

I agree that it begins with the parents, and that they should be more aware as regards video games. Simply put, they should be involved more with their children (which I do hope is the trend nowadays), in which their children will be comfortable with their parents, and will be able to share problems, no matter how silly it may sound to the general public.

I remember this instance, when my uncle and myself would tease my mom. She would then jokingly reply that we came from an elite school, hence they should have taught us some manners. When I thought about it, I don't think they actually taught anything to that extent. I am pretty sure it has been drowned by all the subjects they flush in our heads. Either way, their focus is on a different path.

The same can be said with the parents. Sometimes people can be too focused on the big picture, when those little things are brewing up to smear the big picture.

I personally enjoy these games since they serve as an "outlet". From a bad day, or whatever-I-can-call-it-day. However, I am always for the betterment of everyone. I'd sacrifice my precious time for a friend in need, I'd try to be there for someone who's in need of an advice. Reason: I want them to feel loved, respected and listened to.

I know how it is to be alone, and I try as much as I can to let others feel that they always have someone to talk to.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

I'm no psychologist, but to me that sounds more like a crazy person who picked up a video game than a sane person who picked up a video game and turned crazy.

And who decides how to shape society and what to shape it into? What if some people disagree? How can you force artists to accept responsibility without denying them their right to artistic freedom?

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

There's the rub. If we could all agree on what the ideal world would look like, we could move our way there.

Trying to define that ideal has been the source of more than one war...

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

<font color="plum">The problem with your examples is that none of them are specifically marketed towards teens and young adults. Video games are. That is why designers of the games need to be held to a better standard.

I agree completely parents bear the brunt of the responsibility. I do monitor the games my boys play, whether on a console or on the computer. However, that does not alleviate the responsibility borne by the manufacturers that produce the game.</font>

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

<font color="plum">To paraphrase the quote added to <font color="lightgreen">Bungleau's</font> list, playing games is fun, shifting blame is easy.

Every time this issue comes up, there are two clear cut responses - those that feel the games are not appropriate and those who like the games and say the kid who copied the game was crazy to begin with.

Look at the responses in this thread as an example. Every response from the game supporters say the same thing "this kid was crazy already if he tried to imitate a game". What they are really saying is "I LIKE playing this game (or others like it) and I don't want to risk losing a game I like to play."

Even if their assertions are true that "the kid was crazy to begin with", the company still bears a responsibility not to produce something that could encourage or lead a kid to reproducing the actions in the game.

It's really simple - produce games that do NOT depict illegal activities, assassinations, prostitution or violence against others and manufacturers don't have to worry if kids copy the actions from their games.</font>

<font color="plum"><font color="yellow">Yorick</font> already addressed this - the "right" to artistic freedom is NOT absolute, just as the right to free speech is not. Mass producing anti-social "art" is not an acceptable form of "artistic expression".</font>

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

So, basically, what it boils down to is freedom versus security? Artistic license versus censorship?

Exactly. You've hit the nail on the head. :D There is an element of selfishness in my argument - I'll grant you that - just like there's an element of selfishness in yours, too. "I don't want teens playing these particular games, because I want to feel safe when I walk down the street, regardless of the fact that most teens are mature enough to make the distinction between fiction and reality". I don't want the actions of few to dictate the denial of rights to many.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this particular point.

"Be wary of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master"

As you may have guessed, I'm quite sceptical of 'authority' :P

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

First, it's spelled sKeptical.
And restricting art isn't the same as restricting information.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

First, I'm not from the land of the free, home of the brave.
And use your imagination. :rolleyes: It's not hard to exchange the word "information" for the word "art" (though I would consider art a form of information anyway). The quote still applies IMO.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Hmm that's one spelling difference I wasn't aware of between our countries. And while, yes, you can switch the words, they are not interchangeable.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

If you're American, it's sKeptical. If you're British, it's sCeptical. And apparently if you're Canadian, you can go either way.

At least, according to one site I looked up. :)

As for restricting (art or information), I think they're related. Artists have been known to use their crafts (spoken, written, drawn, composed, painted, etc.) to further discussion of topics that people prefer to keep hidden.

I think one of the real issues is the line between reality and game. For me, gaming is a way to escape from reality... in the last week, with our dog having had a hip replaced (with complications!), I've had little gaming time, and I've *REALLY* missed that escape :heee: Yet I don't confuse gaming and reality (certain late-night dreams about strategy excluded ;) ).

I believe Cerek already mentioned one of the keys in the thread about the kid dressed as the Joker and stealing posters. Becoming an adult means living with the consequences of your actions, and too few people these days appear to be able to look far enough into the future to realize those consequences. Kid thinks that dressing as the Joker makes vandalism okay? Naw. Kid wonders if stealing a taxi is as easy in real life as it is in a game? Should also wonder if getting caught is as likely, or if going to jail is as comfortable... double Nopes.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Jaradu....That's right, they're always crazy. ;) Whenever someone does a strange antisocial act, it's always because they're completely illogical. Never mind the logic that if a kid immerses themselves in a virtual world where violence is rewarded, it follows that some of the virtual behaviour manifests in reality.

They're always crazy. The whole world is crazy!

(But if the whole world is crazy, and you're not, who's the crazy one?) :P

By making them responsible for the effect of their actions.
One can be convicted for inciting a riot.
One can be convicted for planning a robbery others commit.
Where there are direct and provable cause-effect relationships, hand out culpability.
THAT would make people take responsibility for their words.

I mean, there is a current rap group promoting gay-bashing.
If their fans start bashing gays, why shouldn't the group accept some sort of culpability?
The inverse applys. If someone through art influences people to stop littering, make peace not war, forgive, love or take to the streets protesting injustice, the artist is a hero. Why shouldn't the blade cut both ways?

As for determinations - society determines them. ANTI-SOCIAL behaviour is that which harms the society.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Agreed.

And something that's been forgotten, what about a person's right to not be subjected to offensive behaviour. I should be free to say what I want to a friend right? My wife? My child? But what about abuse? What about their right to be free from being insulted, threatened and demeaned?

"Free speech" has limits. Art, games and song are all forms of speech.

As said, there's also a difference between free expression, and mass distribution of that expression.

Someone may express anti-semetic ideas. We as a society are not compelled to make sure those expressions go into every living room in America, no matter how free the person is to express those views in private.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

<font color="plum">My argument against these types of games have nothing to do with my feeling safe when I walk down the street. It has everything to do with companies mass producing games that graphically glorify committing illegal acts. Stealing, killing and prostitution are ALL illegal. Therefore, it is completely irresponsible for a company to produce a game with a goal for the character to successfully participate in as many of these activities as possible. Producing games that glorify criminal behavior is just as irresponsible as producing games based on tragic school shootings.

Who decides what is appropriate and what isn't? Society. If the medium rewards successfully attempting illegal activities, then it is NOT appropriate, especially for younger members who may be more susceptible to blurring the distinction between virtual actions and real world consequences for those same actions.</font>

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

I wasn't aware that anyone had the right not to be offended. Different people are offended by different things, and by claiming abuse left, right and centre, it would be the quickest end to free speech possible short of totalitarianism.

Do I detect the subtle implication that all players of violent video games are themselves violent? ;)

Allow me to reverse your proposal.

I think that if, in a person, violent behaviour or tendencies manifest themselves in reality, it follows that the kid is more likely to immerse themselves in a virtual world where violence is rewarded.

Correlation does not equal causation, but which one of us is right? There is simply not enough research in this field to know. :(

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Ok, so you're saying some video games glorify committing illegal acts, which is irresponsible and can be dangerous for susceptible children.

In the case of adults, they are old enough and responsible enough to decide for themselves whether or not the content is appropriate, and are, for the most part, able to distinguish between reality and virtual reality.

In the case of children, there is a rating on every game which prevents them from playing content inappropriate for their age, and which the parent should take into consideration if buying a game for his or her child. It is not the fault of the game developer if parents don't treat game ratings with the seriousness they treat film ratings.