Define "intrusive software":
 

I'll define it this way:

Software that continues to meddle in your computer's affairs, even after the software it was installed with is removed.

I tried to use my Nero software to burn a few of my CD's up for a garage sale at my cousin's house, and after I selected the tracks I wanted to burn, it sent me a splash error message that I couldn't burn those tracks, as my DRM had been exceeded/expired? Ok, what? I wrote, arranged and produced those CD's in my kitchen. I own the copyrights on all of it. What's the deal there?

I attribute this to SecuROM that installed with NWN 2. I burned 40 CD's on my old rig with the same Nero software, that I legally own. I had everything installed on that rig, minus NWN 2, that I do on this one. In fact, I had a lot more games installed on the old rig. The only thing additional is NWN 2. Has anyone else come across this problem that has NWN 2 installed?

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

A copy of the email I just sent to support@securom.com This situation is beyond pathetic.

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

Yep. Securcom seems to be the bane of games these days.

Moreso, it has no user involvement in the installation of this program, and no information saying "This is being installed". Add to that hte fact that it doesn't leave your computer after the game in question has been installed... bad combo. Very, very, bad combo.

Edit: Heh. Whoopsie.

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

Yeah, and the only way to get it off now is to either jump through about 50 hoops, and download a program that will find and remove it's hidden registry keys, or reinstall my OS. All for a program that I didn't know I was installing, at the time. I'm waiting to hear back from my attorney about what I can do about it. Invading my privacy through the game is one thing, but inhibiting my work is something else.

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

I use Nero to burn cd's and have NWN2 on my pc. Could there be something else causing the problem, RTB?

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

Kyrvias, we do not support software piracy on Ironworks . Please refrain from discussing any such acts on your part or encouraging software piracy.

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

If it worked on your old system, why not simply use the old system to burn the cd's?

Excuse me, but isn't circumventing a copy protection program a violation of the EULA for the software?

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

The old system is gone. It's part of why I got the new fancy rig, so using it is out of the question. Unfortunately.

Not allowing a working back up copy is a violation of the EULA as well. The first section of the EULA explains that you are allowed to make an archive copy, in case something happens to the original medium.

http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/cg...c;f=7;t=003918

Read this for an amazing reference.

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

http://www.robertbard67206.com/images/DRM_expired.bmp
http://www.robertbard67206.com/image...ldbeableto.bmp

It has been brought to my attention via PM that some people find these posts complaining about what SecuROM is doing on my computer offensive. For that, I have to say that I'm sorry. Not for posting them, but for people believing that a registered member, with legitimate problems, shouldn't be allowed to complain.

To the member I'm hearing from, I don't appreciate the attempts at censorship you are laying down. None of my posts have violated the TOS of Ironworks Forums. If they had, I'm quite sure I would have heard from a moderator by now. If something in a post offends you, please feel free to report it to a moderator. I'm sure they'll take appropriate action. I haven't seen them fail at it for over 6 years now. Perhaps you'll find that, in doing that, it's really not my problem, but your own.

To the mods, and the general public on the board, no, I will not disclose the member's identity. In my understanding of the TOS, so long as I'm not attacking other members, or posting Warez sites, I'm within the bounds of what is allowed here. I don't recall ever being called down here by a moderator either.

In so far as I'm concerned, if my legitimate problems with Atari bug you, then don't read my posts, or, comment publicly about them, so that other members may either agree or disagree with you on the topic, instead of attempting to silence me through PM's.

The links above are a very real problem I'm having with SecuROM, when it should really be inactive on my machine, since NWN 2 is uninstalled. This is intrusive. If this fact makes you feel guilty, or makes you mad, I have no control over that. I'm not in a position to go buy other burning software, and, contrary to opinions to the contrary, Atari should have no say in what other software is installed or used on my computer.

If my being aggravated about that bothers you, then I invite you to comment here, or to quit reading my posts. If it bothers you that bad, it may be bad for your blood pressure. Far be it from me to have my legitimate problems cause any one any strife.

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

Well put Rob :thumbsup:

Of course these companies have a right to defend themselves but this sort of crap really is playing into the hands of pirates by annoying the hell out of innocent people. I have not yet bought NWN2 (long story) but I would like too know of any rubbish that implants itself onto my computer BEFORE I choose to buy it.

BTW did SONY get fined very heavily over this sort of issue not so long ago?

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

And as such, you might have well read the fact that he doesn't support it either, but seems to be forced because of the anti-piracy programs prohibiting him from doing his normal stuff on the computer.

Come on, moderators. You disencourage using swearwords as well, but I see the use of "shit", "bastard" and the occasional f-word all over this place. Even in posts made by our beloved Webmaster.

In short: there's no need to yell out at every fart made around this place. You're here to keep things calm when the shit (!!) hits the fan, not when someone's just taking a crap.

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

What about speaking against the thieves that are the publishing companies?

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

There is a difference between the occasional slipped profanity and piracy. One is a crime and one is not. Ziroc want his website to remain in legality and that's his right. Heck, even websites like Megagames that are the number one distributor on no-cd files ban discussion of piracy on their forum.

No one's telling you what you can and can't do outside the forum, just don't discuss it here.

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

Ah, so that's where i can get 'em. Thanks for the info, Luvian. :D ;)

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

Link, we're here to keep the rules as Z puts them down in ToS and to the mods. As Luvian points out there's a big difference between illegal piracy discussions and the occasional lapse in linguistic good manners.

And you've been around this and other forums long enough to know mods can't be everywhere all the time nor are they 100% perfect, so occasionally something gets by. But that certainly doesn't make everything else fair game.

As for telling us what we're here to do...well, Z does a fairly good job of that already! ;) There's even a little something in the ToS that applies to mods and interacting with them. :) In other words... that fart stinks, please avoid the fan! ;) :D And for the rest of it.. for goodness sake, use the restrooms! *does flight attendant imitation, pointing to the rear of the board*



RTB, I do have to say I agree with your point about the programs being added to my pc that I only have because of the game/application I purchased and intended to use. When that bit of software is on the the pc AFTER you delete the other main program it came with, there should be a fix available to remove it. Seems to me that everything should go when you uninstall the main application.

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

Just a note here, since I've had a chance to sleep on this; I'm not going on about NWN 2. The game is a non issue for me now. The fact is, I could run the game on this PC. However, the fact that Securom was installed without my knowledge, or consent bothers me. This thread, however, is about a specific problem I'm having with the DRM, when it shouldn't even be on my PC any more. The game it's designed to protect is gone from my system. It installed with that game, why doesn't it uninstall with it?

Sony did settle a lot of lawsuits on the matter, and still has some pending, the one I remember off the top of my head being in Texas. Making an effort to protect a publisher's investment does not give the publisher the right to attempt to gain control of the enduser's machine. The fact that the software only affects purchased copies of the game should be indicitave of how much the solution doesn't solve anything.

Edit: Seems that Cloudy and I cross posted. That kind of thing's going to happen. As I've indicated though, that is the issue I'm having now, as can be seen by the two links I recently posted. The game is gone, and the software is still exerting control over my machine, in so far as I can tell.

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

The flip side to this whole argument is that anyone who had purchased NWN2 has had the option from DAY 1 to buy either a hard copy version or a digital download.

The digital download comes securRom free, allows for back-ups and it actually runs FASTER than the hard copy dvd / cd versions. The only issue that I've seen is a temporary problem with limited re-installs when PCs crash and have to be rebuilt. And those problems can and have been solved.

SecurRom isn't a secret and it never has been. It's NO secret that Atari has used it on other games in the past.

Part of being a savvy consumer is knowing what you are buying. Quite frankly, I can't believe that someone with your experience with NWN1 wasn't aware of potential problems with SecurROm before buying NWN2.

In fact, RTB, that raises a VERY intersting question. I'm sure that you were copying cd's on your old machine, correct? And I am willing to bet that you also had NWN1 installed at the same time. right? So please explain to me, IF SecurRom is the cause of your problem, then WHY weren't you aware of it with the OLD system. And knowing that, why did you then buy NWN2 in the hard drive format? If it was NOT a problem on your old system perhaps the issue is NOT SecurRom at all, but rather something about the way your current system is built and NOT exclusively a SecurRom issue!?

As I suggested before, why not TRY to get different CD burning software, and see if THAT will solve the problem?

"Making an effort to protect a publisher's investment does not give the publisher the right to attempt to gain control of the enduser's machine."

It can and does if that control is limited to prevention of piracy which you agreed to in the EULA anyway. I WILL concede that any control BEYOND that use IS intrusive, but RTB you have NOT proven that it functions in that manner.

Edit: There is a dispute over whether D2D is SecurRom free or not. The real issue though is not whether it's there, but if it designed to function with a DISC IN THE DRIVE, and there isn't one there, what function does it REALLY serve?

RTB, you told me that you bought NWN2 BEFORE you had a system that could play it which you seem to think invalidates the choice you had of buying a D2D version. My response is that it was YOUR choice to buy before your system was upgraded. You COULD have waited. :)

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

I went ahead and found this at Atari's forum. As I indicated, with NWN installed on the old rig, yes, I could burn cds. However, the version of Securom used in NWN is not the same as the version that came on the disc with NWN 2, which I, as a fanboy of NWN, had to rush out and buy, just like everyone else. I had the money at the time, and it was available. The uninstall of NWN 2 on the old rig resulted in my having to format the harddrive, which I had assumed at the time it was a problem with the .NET framework stuff.

I indicated this in a previous discussion; I'm not prone to just jumping on any bandwagon. Discussion about other games having Securom has ocurred on other forums, and if that raises prices for other consumers, well, it's really not the fault of affected consumers, but publishers that don't care what their paying customers have to go through to use a product they purchased. I referrenced both NWN 2, and Bioshock as having problems with the newer versions of Securom, and a simple Google search will verify those without having to spend the countless hours I have spent reading post after post concerning the problems, and discussing them. You may feel free to have my posts censored at your leisure. You may insist on having them deleted as it conveniences you, but these facts will not go away with the deletion of my opinions, or posts.

:shrug: In some things, there is no point in discussion. As far as some people are concerned, this is an outright assault on what people see as a legitimate business. However, as Sony found out with their CD rootkit, there are laws, and there are new laws since then about secretly installing stuff with other software. Did a pop-up window come up during your NWN 2 installation telling you that software from Sony was being installed? Is it labelled anywhere on the box that a Sony product is included with the game? It's not on my box, and I had no such pop-up during installation. This is a secret.

My guilt lies in not doing more research before I installed, of that I take full responsiblility. However, I did not put this software on the disc. I did not hide it from the public, and I sure didn't intend to put anything by Sony on this rig. I won't even play any of cds I own on it, for fear of installing something like this on my PC. I can't remember the last new cd I bought, since Sony has their fingers in just about every major label. My Playstation, which was given to me, is a glorified cd player, because I will not support Sony. However, with the purchase of this game, I did. I did so unaware of it, and I installed it, also unaware of the problems it could, and is causing.

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

A customer shouldn't have to do extensive researches to see if he's going to experience serious problems when buying something as simple as a game, nor should he have to do researches to find out what get secretly installed on his computer.

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

The fact that NWN1 had Securom bundled with it was known FIVE years ago, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if Atari published NWN1 and it had securom that NWN2 might ALSO have it.

It wasn't a secret Luvian. That is a total misrepresentation of the facts imo.

I just did a simple google search of NWN2 securom and the FIRST hit I got is one for a petition dated september 2006 calling for its removal.

In fact, with all the furor in the past few years over securom and starforce (i think thats the name) buyers SHOULD be asking what type of copy protection is on their software. I won't TOUCH anything with starforce on it. People scan consumer guides ALL the time for even mundane household appliances. You're going to drop 50$ on a game and you don't want to be bothered with doing a web search to check on issues with it?

My biggest issue is with those people who claim that their problems are securom related and offer NO solid proof. In point of fact, RTB falls into that category. He was able to burn cd's on his old machine without problems and yet he had NWN1 AND Securom on that machine. Now with Nwn2, a new machine and probably a revised version of securom there IS a problem. We are expected to take a leap of faith that Securom IS the problem and not something ELSE.

I am NOT unsympathetic to those people who have REAL VERIFIABLE ISSUES with Securom, but I also wonder how many of those alleged cases are in fact ACTUALLY caused by securom.

I will simply ask this. How many people on these forums, aside from possibly RTB, have actually had a verifiable problem with either NWN1 or NWN2 that they can PROVE is directly atrributable to securom?

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

There's plenty of different game protection, it's entirely possible they could have changed it, and with all the bitching that apparently went on about it the first time around, that would probably have been the smart thing to do.

RTB is getting copy protection errors. What do you think is responsible for creating copy protection errors? Windows Media player? Word pad? Maybe Winamp? Photoshop? Or how about the copy protection program that was installed coincidentally when his problems started? (duh) I don't know why you are so obsessed with this but you're not looking at things logically here if you honestly don't see the link.

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

It might have been smart to do it but to expect that they would have NO copy protection on it is assinine! We are talking about Atari for pete's sake. And in fact, if you think they MIGHT have switched it, then it would have been even MORE prudent to check what system they are using as the most popular altenative is even WORSE - Starforce.

Sorry you don't agree, but I think everyone who buys software needs to under stand exactly what they buying. For pete's sake, you check the system specs to make sure it runs on your system don't you? You would think you MIGHT want to know what copy protection system it uses too! THAT would be the smart thing to do.

I don't see any point in discussing this with you. You've made up your mind. Sent you a pm.

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

The system requirements are written on the box, the copy protection is not, nor do they ever tell you during installation that they are secretly installing standalone software on your computer.

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

You are pulling my leg? NWN1 got SecuROM? Bloody hell!! I didn't even know that!

I only know about SecureROM from NWN2 when people from this forum complaining about it. Hence I didn't buy the game until now. When NWN1 was released many years back, I didn't see anybody complaining about SecuROM whatsoever. I bought NWN1 and happily installed it and played it even.

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

There was a huge thread on the NWN1 forums back in the day about it. People threatening to sue Atari because it was preventing them from making backups of their game, and then a slew of various problems with securerom generally.

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

I don't even have WinAmp... :( So I guess it's not that. In fact, this computer, for all it's harddrive, is fairly barren. Bare minimum stuff, set up that way by the guys that built it, so that I could hopefully smoke NWN 2. I have a DVD burner, but I don't even have a DVD player software installed, as I said, bare minimum. The funny thing is, this PC did smoke it. It's not until I started having issues that I got fed up. So, yes, while I wasn't having problems, I was looking at what things could have been done better/differently about the game, all in my opinion, of course.

The big thing is, now that I have all this time on my hands, when I can actually be at the computer, I don't have much else to do, and when I try to do something on a PC that literally blows my old one out of the water, and it won't do it, I start looking for differences. This is the part that really amuses me about this discussion. I know from reading the Securom FAQ at OE's BioWare forums that the version of Securom used in NWN 2 is as different from the version used in NWN as NWN is from NWN 2.

However, it seems that it's expected that while technology advanced everywhere else, Securom stayed the same. If it had, I probably wouldn't have the problems. If I didn't have the problems, then no, I wouldn't have posted this thread. This thread concerns the problems I'm having, that I can't connect to anything else. I've been using Nero to burn CD's since I got the software a year and a half ago, or so. I've only had this computer since May, and I had never tried to burn any CD's prior to my posting of this thread. It's a legitimate complaint, with a seemingly logical cause. The main difference in my software environment now, other than the huge void on this harddrive, is the NWN 2 install of Securom.

I guess I could say that, contrary to what the license says, the license really expired. It does say unlimited burns, however, and so far as I know, one burn is far from unlimited, and I didn't get to finish that one. So, if there's another explanation, I'd sure like to hear it. Just a side point as well, it won't let me burn the track in Windows Media Player either. So what gives?

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

Try downloading the trial version of another burning software and see if that one can burn songs. Also, the song in your screenshot is a commercial one. Try burning one made from scratch by yourself and see if it does make a difference.

Also all joking aside you can actually try uninstalling Windows Media Player. It does monitor these things and I guess something could have messed it up.

So basically try these steps:

1: Try burning your own song. Does it work?
2: Uninstall WMA and try the song again. Does it work?
3: Download a trial software and try again. Does it work?

Also, and this may be the more important part, go in your control pannel and check for the Icon called "Nero Burn Rights". Open it. make sure everyone has burn right, that the little checkbox down the window is checked, then click re-initialize burn rights.

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

The initial post in this thread originated from trying to burn a few CD's of my own music. The screenies are from a subsequent test, trying to figure out what was going on. However, I haven't tried the burn rights thing, and will look into it, as soon as the marching band moves out of my head again.

I can't find that entry in either the Windows Control Panel, or the Nero. Of course, I can barely find the key board right now, so that's not surprising. I'll have to check in with it later.

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

You'll find it under the classic style display of the windows xp control panel.

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

Wow nwn1 had this crap bundled onto it? I never knew either, and why would I? I have looked at the box the game comes in down here in OZ and nope! it is not mentioned either. So why should joe average consumer be expected to have crystal balls that make him see things that are hidden. I am frankly stunned by your post Micah :d

Yes this software was and IS a secret and to suggest otherwise is a total misrepresentation of the facts :p

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

Sorry no.

If it was a "secret" wellard .. how come *I* knew about it when the NWN1 game was released? How come it was COMMON knowledge on the NWN1 forums FIVE YEARS ago when the game was released?

Just because YOU were not aware of it does NOT make it a secret. Just because OTHER people on this forum did NOT know about it doesn't make it a secret. It WAS common knowledge among the gaming community. Those of you who did not know about it were simply uninformed. That's unfortunate but simply not being aware of something does NOT make it a secret.


Okay, that's my LAST word on it. Done. Finished. Over.

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

Good point, how did you know about it? was it from the adverts that they put out? the press releases? the information on the game box or in the book? Or was it passed to you by reading online on some forum Micah?

Now I have been a member of this forum since 2002 and used to lurk for a long time before then and I have no recolection of this being discussed, nor as Kakero,though I am prepared to accept that it may have been mentioned before, but does that make it common knowledge? How does the average punter going into the local wal mart to buy a game for himself or his kids know about this issue? Does the girl behind the sales counter say "log onto Ironworks and do a search of the forums for a thread on spyware fitted to the game before you put it onto your PC and if it is a problem then just return it for a refund before you open the box..." Nah I don't think so either Micah.

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

The simple fact is, other than a rather large group of people that surf the Atari, or BioWare forums, most people had no idea. People that shop boxes, with no knowledge of the game would have no way to know. The fact that the information isn't disclosed on the box, or during the install, is questionable, at best.

For my part, when I get the time, and the motivation, I'm going to back up all the stuff I've been doing lately in NWN, and wipe my harddrive, to insure that I get the suspect software off. After that, I'm going to retry burning my CD. I just find it rather sad that I have to spend several hours out of a day wiping, and resetting my harddrive, just because somebody wants to tell me what I can and cannot run on my computer.

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

Wellard, you're the only person who I would have even considered jumping back into this for. :) Here goes - hang on, you got me going .... lol ...

First of all, we're partly discussing semantics ... you claimed it was secret, and it clearly was NOT. Okay, that's finished.

No, clearly the stilted scenario you presented is NOT going to happen. Why? Because the "average punter" doesn't buy these games anyway. They appeal to a specific group of people, most of who are very conversant in gaming systems and understand the differences between a FPS and CRPG and a tactical simulation. Most of them, by the very nature of the games they are playing, have high powered computer rigs, and can make the internet dance on the head of a pin. The average schmuck off the street is NOT going to buy NWN1 or Jade Empire or NWN2 or The Witcher. He'll buy a play station cartridge or a x-box 360 game.

The issues around the game just won't be discussed HERE at IW, Wellard. Probably because these forums are more social in nature and don't truly cater to gamers. No, the spoiler threads do NOT count folks. Those are typically "help me kill the evil wizard fooble" threads. The MOST i normally ever hear about a game BEFORE it is released is "Hey this game is coming out and developer C is doing and it's going to be great or developer A is doing it and it sucks". And the reaction, is typically "What are the system specs" and maybe ask someone whether it is a FPS game or whatever. THAT'S IT! So I don't EXPECT to get anything more than tips about new games here. If I want SOLID information about the game, I go to ....

The game's home page! What a novel concept. I can get much better and more accurate information there anyway! Usually either the distributor (Atari in the case of NWN1/NWN2) or the producer (ala Bioware / Obsidian) and occasionaly both have web sites for the game. The Witcher has an official site at Atari and another at CDProjeckt. Why not go there? I ALWAYS go to forums for ANY game I buy ahead of time. I went to the Witcher forums before I ordered that, I'm still scoping out the Mass Effect forums before I decide to order that. Anyone who think about ordering a computer game should be doing the same thing!

AND If you had done that with NWN1 before you bought it, you would have found any number of threads that clearly mentioned the securom issue. It was ALL over those forums!

I'm sorry but USUALLY the gamer who buys these games finds out about them on the internet. Heck I found out about several games here at IW. Why is it so unreasonable to expect the gamer to use the same tool to research them? Is that such a ridiculous stretch for him to research the game on the internet? Apparently some of you think so based on the reaction my stance is getting here. :D

I have been a long time participant on the Obsidian / Bioware / Black Isle / Interplay forums. I am a Moderator / Assistant Administrator on the Thieve's Guild NWN2 forums/ website. I usually pop in to forums for games that are in development that I am curious about at least once a week for 10 minutes to check things out. So yes, I am NOT your typical gamer. My current immersion level is MUCH deeper. NONETHELESS, back in 2002 I was NOT that heavily involved and I was still a relatively noob. Yet I was STILL aware of all the issues re: securom and NWN1. Perhaps you would consider that inside informatinon. I don't. The simple fact is that there wasn't anything at that time that I knew that anyone else, (especially those who claim to have been ignorant of those problems until now), could not have found out if they had taken the time to visit those very same forums! All present day forums have web searchs as well. USE THEM! What a NOVEL concept! Go to the forums where the developers and fans are discussing the game and maybe hear about potential issues related to it? *slaps his head* DOH!

I see many of you on this site regularly, MUCH more frequently than I am, so PLEASE don't tell me you can't spend a minute or two or ten or even an hour to search out the specifics of a given game via a web search and visit the forums. That excuse doesn't wash.

If you don't research what you are buying, you are simply an uninformed ignorant consumer. Would you buy a car without having it checked out before hand? Would you buy a TV or a major appliance without checking a consumer shopping guide? Hey, would you put 20W50 oil in your car if the manual called for 5W30? Would you run unleaded gas in a diesel engine? Of course you wouldn't! So why do you treat software ANY different?

Why spend anywhere from 1000$ to 3000$ and up to 5000$ on a fancy gaming rigs, and then bitch to beat all hell when some 50$ piece of software blows a machine to crap, and the potential problems with the software were KNOWN about in advance. I am sorry, wellard, but that is patently absurd! Buying software without researching it and THEN complaining about the ramifications of that purchase AFTERWARD is simply laughable. Caveat Emptor!

In the case of NWN2, since that is what triggered this whole discussion at the beginning, the total number of people who are actually experiencing verifiable securom related problems is small. (Read that again please - ACTUAL VERIFIABLE SECUROM RELATED PROBLEMS). Many of the problems that people lay at securoms doorstep are NOT securom related. I'm sorry that RTB may be one of them, truly, and I am sorry that you all think I am being unsympathetic to him. I really wish this had NOT happened to him. But I refuse to sit back and listen while everyone else throws up their hands, says "What a surprise! I had NO idea" and complains about this "evil secret software" It's TOTAL BS. The information was out there, and you could have found out if you had taken the time to, and it would NOT have been difficult for a group of people as intelligent as this.


Wellard, please check your pms. :D

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

Checked PM and replied Micah :p Thanks for remaining calm and explaining your position further. :thumbsup:

Well Micah it does seems I guessed correctly that you found out your information online. ;)

I strongly disagree however with your first statement, I (and others) say very secret and therefore find that the arguments you build on in detail afterwords to be without any foundation. So on that note we will have to agree to disagree.

Perhaps however you could point me and everyone else to the exact location of the official NWN site that advertises this software showing how it fully affects your PC.

:heee:

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

Do you really think that? These games certainly does attract many casual gamers. If they were just bought by the core nerd group they wouldn't be as successful as they are.

I see plenty of people buying rpgs without being informed when I go into shops. I've seen people buy NWN 2. I've also once seen two kids torn between buying Dark Messiah of Might and Magic or Gothic 3 (back when that game had no patch and could barely be described as playable) and they settled on Gothic 3 because they were 10$ short on Messiah. I was seriously considering telling them to hold off, but decided they wouldn't believe me the game was that bad so didn't bother.

There's a reason these games end up in the bestseller and top 10 games list, and that's because people buy them.

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

I knew absolutely nothing about CRPGs when I discovered BG. The GF at the time brought it home from a trip to find something else to play, and I never looked back. BG/BG 2 are what brought me to this forum, on the blue board. The point being, the "average punter" (I like that phrase) may very well pick up a copy of any game with an interesting box. I got both Diablo games that way, with the exception of LoD, since it was an expansion set. If the industry relied only on the people who surf their forums, it may well be a dead industry by now.

Here's my position, and in some countries, it's the law:

Identify the software that you are installing on an end user's PC. Everything that goes on should be indicated, especially third person software. They will tell you that it supports EAX, or AMD/Intel processors, why won't they tell you what copy protection is used? It should also have information about what software it won't work with, especially, as in the case with SecuROM, when they have a list of blacklisted software.

To me, this is the secret. Also, when a game is going to install DirectX, it pops up and tells you, and asks if you want to continue. This should be an option for copy protection software as well, and that pop up should include information about what software environments will be incompatible with the copy protection installed. Will this cut sales? Yes, it will. There will be people like me, that see on the box, that the software is by Sony, and won't buy it. I'm sure this will cost the company money, however, I'm not sure it will raise prices for the people that don't care, or don't have the environment that would prove hostile to the game.

Returning software, games in particular, is touchy at best here. Unlike other things that you buy that don't/won't work, you can't just put it back in the box and go get your money back. You may be able to get an in store credit, but what happens with D2D versions? If it doesn't work, you are at the mercy of publisher. Either they fix the .exe, or they don't. I don't know how Tech Support has been for D2D, but I do know that physical medium support as been all but non-existant.

Another phrase that I've seen tossed around is "it affects an insignificant number of people". If I sold 500,000 copies of my CD, and one didn't work, that's one too many. The view at Atari right now seems to reflect that, based on tech support responses, anyway. I'd pretty much guarantee that if the ratio was the other way around, it would be fixed. I'll grant that I had no problems running NWN 2, my problem is more directly related to software that doesn't want to work, or is being prohibited from working after the fact. To me, this is the bulk of the problem. The mindset that it works for 99 out of 100 people is plain wrong.

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

I am absolutely stupified that you (and others) can continue to maintain that this was secret. No, it was not broadcast with 30 foot high billboards. But again the information WAS out there. But if you insist, we can just drop this and agree to disagree. :) I'm fine with that.

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

It's not a hard position to maintain. The "average punter" (I still like that phrase) would have had no way to know. The guy that reads a couple of review sites prior to release wouldn't know either. Only dedicated gamers would spend the time to research it that deeply, which may be a strike against me being a dedicated gamer, since I didn't research it that deeply.

Another point to ponder is there was no way to predict what the overall affects would be, prior to release. So a lot of dedicated punters would know it had the copy protection, and wouldn't find out until after they installed it that they were going to be locked out of the game, based on the software environment. There is also no way to say what effects it would have on other software, as is what seems likely in my case.

Here we sit, almost a year after the pirated version hit the web the same day as the game hit the shelves, with ineffective third party software punishing the people that did the right thing. The publisher, being fully aware of the problem, simply ignoring it, and hoping the dissatisfied people will go away. People may be tired of hearing about the problems, but people are hearing about the problems because the problems persist. To me, that is the bigger issue than people posting about the problems.

Re: Define "intrusive software":
 

It is a secret because only those people who have visited the atari forum will know about the securom thing. Those that do not visit the website will not know or probably will never know unless some people post topics about securom in other websites ie on IW.