Okay folks, recently some of the big guitar/bass/drum tablature sites have been forced to close over claims that unauthorised tabs are illegal, seemingly as very little money is being made for the sheet music companies and their respective artists.

So this got me thinking, what say you?!

This is a topic that is really extreme. There doesn't seem to be any middle ground. The people that are against it are vehemently so, and the people that think it's ok can't understand why the big issue.

Here's my take on the situation:

If a song is on the radio it's public domain. As a musician, if I want to learn a song from the radio, and I sit there with my guitar and learn it, it doesn't cost me anything. If I have doubts about how a part goes, why should I have to pay for a book of music for one part of the song?

The anti-piracy people will tell you that it's because not buying the song book is piracy, stealing the music. The kicker to this, for me, is that if you learn the song, and perform it on a cd, giving credit to the original artist, it's not piracy, even though you are going to make money on the song, by virtue of it being on the cd. I don't know if artists get royalties off of your sales or not, but I don't think so, considering the number of "cover" tunes that get on cd's these days. I also don't know if I need permission from the artist/rep to use it, but I don't think that is true either.

Of course, my music wasn't professionally produced, I did it on my computer, in my kitchen...The issue of royalties won't be a problem, since all the music is original. If somebody wants to "cover" my music on a different cd, as long as I get credit, I'm fine with it, might even generate more sales for me.

It's extreme. It's ridiculous.

Admittedly, this is the first I've heard of it. However, the arguments (songbook companies and artists not making money) are spurious.

The songbook companies complaining would be like the blacksmith complaining about these newfangled cars. It's a new world... adapt or die. Tabs make it a lot easier to learn music for someone who's not an experienced music reader. And if you are, it's still another simple way.

The artists... I can buy that, since they do create it. I mean, they sell hint books for games... but sites like IW give that away for nearly free. If you want to sell the hint book or the tab, you need to find a way to do it better. Since they're not actively selling tabs, they need to decide to do it or decide not to. The kicker would be for them to decide how to work with their fans.

Don't try to stop change. Embrace it, and ride the wave :D

For the uneducated that actually think "internet piracy" hurts sales...

Prime Palaver 11
Prime Palaver 6

[ 07-28-2006, 07:38 AM: Message edited by: Sir Krustin ]

Pff, half of the time, tabs that you can find for free are way from accurate anyway. If you want quality, you'll have to go look somewhere else.

That's only too true. However, they can put you on the right track, and depending on your skill level, you can get it from there. I see tab as a guide anyway, even if it's written by reputable people, like the pair of guitar mags that I used to use for tab. What ends up on the paper usually isn't what is either played, or feasible, sometimes. I know, before I learned how to read it, I used to wonder how I was supposed to get 7 fingers... [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img]

Also, what I find highly lacking in tabs is rhythm. You can at most hint to the rhythm by placeing eight, sixteenth, quarter above the numbers in the tabs. Forget about triplets, quintuples, slurs and all those things. And with the music I try to find in tabs (Pastorius for instance, where he plays so fast I can't figure out what tabnumber corresponds to what note) there is no way I'm going to figure it out with.

A lot of tab is simply based on the number/spacing of the numbers in a bar. Triplets usually still have a little three above them, and the hammer/pull off indicators as well. Based on the count, you can differentiate between what's a half note, quarter note, etc.

Haha, I think of tabs solely as drum tabs, as that's what I played, so I did a double take at JrKASperov saying they lack rhythm. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Triplets are just separated from the rest of the bar, or the tabs are written more spaced out.

What? You expect me to read all that? Can't you just tell me what's it about?

that being the case Olga was *almost* always reliable and they are currently going through the legal madness to stay online.

Some interesting responses tho I'd like to hear from the folks that voted against the sites :D

[ 07-29-2006, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: Madman-Rogovich ]

What? You expect me to read all that? Can't you just tell me what's it about? </font>[/QUOTE]It's an article on piracy, and the record company's knee jerk reaction to downloading music. It's got some really good points about how the execs came up with their numbers, and it's written by Janis Ian, who has been in the industry since the 1960's.

Drum tabs are all about rhythm... it's what we do. None of that sissy melody/harmony stuff for us... :D

Oh well, my experience with basstabs is that it's sorely lacking. Drumtabs are ofcourse a whole other thing.

In the days when I used tabs, those sites were invaluable - especially for those of us who taught ourselves. Bass tabs require about 5x more patience before you find it, if it exists anyway.

I much prefer powertabs or guitar pro tabs over the text ones, mainly for the issue of timing If you guys haven't tried power tab, it's free and awesome. The catch, right now, is that those sites are facing the same kind of trouble. Someone around here has a few hundred though, mostly metal. I'm not saying I'll share them. I'm not saying I won't. I'm just saying :D

C'mon dont bogart the power tabs :D

seriously tho I thought they had to be paid for?

Power Tab is free, as are (or were) its plethora of music files at www.powertabs.net and others.

Guitar Pro is not free, but its respective music files were. I'm thinking the developers of Guitar Pro were thinking they'd stay that way. It's useful for getting a melody down in a rough semblance of its timing and structure, for something you've created. However, the program is of limited appeal if all you can use it for is creating your own pieces for personal reference or to share them. I wanna use it to learn the bass for obscure Scandinavian death metal, dangit!

It just occurred to me that programs like these, as well as tabs, made it possible to learn how to play songs and bands that will never get their own music book. Nothing I want to play is popular enough to have its own competing for-sale sourcebook, and yet my tab archives of such material are plentiful.

Edit: Apparently Powertabs.net is functioning and distributing power tab again. Maybe the legality of such a thing has been ironed out or the tabs are limited. Not sure.

[ 08-03-2006, 12:26 AM: Message edited by: Lucern ]

1.If a song is on radio it's NOT public domain. It remains the property of the songwriter, and the performer (or whoever owns the rights).

2.If you're working the song out by ear, that's awesome. If you have doubts about how it goes, you should by the tabs from the song owner, not download it from some hack for free.

Some performers don't want tabs of their work. Tommy Emmanuel, arguably the worlds best guitarist, is adamantly against tabs. He believes it creates a culture of lazy musicians. He never used tabs while learning and never will.

I think his argument is the most compelling.

So what if you play in a covers band? and you're playing different songs every night you seriously reckon every time you can't quite work out a lick by ear you should pay the £10 for the official music?

Personally If I like an artists work and I see a book of their transcriptions I will buy it as its much nicer to have a book than a printout but I'm not going to buy something for the sake of a few notes, that would be ridiculous.

*edit* Decided to withdraw the argument against Tommy Emmanuel being amongst the worlds greatests guitarists, due too the off topic nature that'd no doubt ensue :D

[ 08-09-2006, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: Madman-Rogovich ]

I'm not sure if I should be, but I'm kinda embarrassed to say that I don't know who he is. I have about 10 books with tab in them, guitar magazines, although, right now, I couldn't tell you where they are...I do most of my covers by ear, so if it's not quite right, that's why. However, imitation may be the purest form of flattery, but if I interpret it a little different than it's written, it's no big deal, since I don't perform cover tunes when I do perform. All my own material. The best use I have found for cover tunes is to learn new techniques, such as sweep picking, or tapping, as if I'd get way into that. With that being said, I'd love to look over some Metallica tabs, to see how close I am on a few of those covers.

If you're making money playing someone elses music, and you need tabs to do it, you should definitely be paying the money. It's a job. Do you expect to get your gasoline for free if you drive a taxi? Do you expect to get free wood to build houses?

It's the songwriters intellectual property, so pay them what they're due if you're going to make money off it.
Yeah it would be. So work it out by ear.
If you steal the artists work, you're not really a fan. ;)

Wise move. He's not AMONGST the worlds greatest guitarist, he IS the worlds greatest guitarist.
He's the only guitarist the late great Chet Atkins acknowledged as a worthy successor to him.

You seriously need to see the guy LIVE in concert to become a convert. I'm telling you, he does things on the guitar you'd never think possible. His reach alone, meant that he simultaneously played notes on the bottom and top strings, seven or eight frets apart. He plays solo concerts that sound like 3 guitarists, because he splits the bassline, the chords, and the melody. (He shows how he does it in concert, giving practically a music lesson in the process) Beatles songs like you've never heard.

Here's one album of his - all on one guitar. Check out the song "Train to Dusseldorf"

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/M...92496&s=143441

He is seriously a freak.

[ 08-10-2006, 01:22 AM: Message edited by: Melchior ]

Here's some Tommy:

Angelina - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhR04kmcSXU

Beatles medely - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITt_yblSNrs - This one has some unbelievable stuff on it.

Mombasa - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-PxdznWjAk

I've always thought of you - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmidYDoKmOA


http://www.chartattack.com/damn/2006/06/1604.cfm

A finger-style guitarist inspired by the legendary Chet Atkins, Emmanuel can simultaneously play multiple parts, much like a pianist does with his right and left hands. His abilities resulted in Atkins labelling him c.g.p. — certified guitar player — a title that he shares with only two other men on the planet: Jerry Reed and John Knowles.

Emmanuel recorded with Atkins on 1997's Grammy Award-nominated album, The Day Finger Pickers Took Over The World. He has performed alongside such other living legends as Eric Clapton (who has called Emmanuel "probably the greatest finger-picker in the world today"), Joe Walsh, Stevie Wonder and Les Paul. His albums have received four gold and platinum certifications in Australia.

http://www.momentumeurope.com/docume...-biography.pdf

Emmanuel’s unique style — he calls it simply “finger style” — is akin to playing a guitar the way a pianist plays a piano. While Tommy has many imitators, few approach his mastery. He even has his own annual guitar festivals, “Tommy Fest,” in Newport News, Virginia, Louisville, KY and Dortmund, Germany. Jazz legend Chet Atkins was one of the first people who inspired Emmanuel to pick up a guitar. Decades later, Atkins himself became one of Emmanuel’s biggest fans, and is responsible for declaring Emmanuel a “Certified Guitar Player” — an honour shared by only two other people in the world (Jerry Reed and John Knowles). “I think he’s probably the greatest finger-picker in the world today,” Atkins said a few months prior to his death in 2001. “He’s inventive, fearless and has a flawless sense of rhythm. You can’t watch Tommy perform and not feel happy.”

“I’ve spent my whole life from the age of 4 playing music and entertaining people. I never wanted to do anything else,” says Emmanuel. “Playing the guitar is much more than a career for me. It’s a passion ... my life. The best thing in the world is to make people happy and bring them together through my music. Because I’m touring so much these days, the whole world has become my home.”

[ 08-10-2006, 01:55 AM: Message edited by: Melchior ]

Not impressive, I've seen dozens of guitarists and bassists even who do that kind of stuff.

Don't make me mention Al of John.

The guy can play, however he is by no means anything like the greatest guitarist on the planet, not in my opinion anyway :eek:

Anyway, getting back to the topic in hand it seems the majority have voted in favour of these sites (with some wanting no part of it :D )

To be honest tho after some thought Ive begun thinking that even if all the decent tab sites are banned, will they go the way of music downloads?

I mean for a fair price it might not be so bad to get access to the official transcriptions thus benefiting those hard-done-by musicians via a program like I-tunes.

Yeah right! Fibber. You don't play guitar do you?

No idea....

Ever heard the term "imitator"? Plenty have imitated Emmanuel.
Did you even watch the youtube stuff?
Have you ever seen him live?

I'm astounded that after seeing all that you would post what you did.
There is no-one in the world who can do what Tommy does. Even the guys who have worked out Tommy songs and play them note for note lack his inventiveness, his freedom, his tonal control, his rhtyhmic mastery. There's a reason why Eric Clapton and Chet Atkins called him the greatest finger player alive.

If you don't mind, I'll take Eric Clapton's and Chet Atkin's opinion, and what i've seen live.
I had the privelege of seeing some of the worlds best guitarists live, and I'm telling you Tommy blows them away.

I play bass.

You call Al diMeola and John McLaughlin imitators? *laughs*
Yes I watched it because you were so mad about it, it was nothing.

*You* need to get your head out of your dark place and open your mind. Somehow you have made yourself so mad about this player you're not able to imagine there are other, possibly better, guitarists.

And I absolutely laugh about calling Clapton and Atkins authorities on this field. Those are ok guitarists at best.

Seriously, open up your mind, there's more than this guy's technique, and I've seen it used a plenty.

Chet Atkins, only hailed as the greatest guitarist ever by thousands of guitarists, was hardly an authority??? Unbelievable.

Well your loss buddy. Keep playing your bass. Hope you get better.

[ 08-10-2006, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Melchior ]

Right, lessen the sour tones people :mad: dont really want the thread closed as a result of snide remarks!

back on track folks,

Melchior give Tommy a rest :D

But I've moved on to Chet Atkins!

And don't get me started on Django Reinhardt!