Just how educated about real swords of both the two big types Western European and East Asian (From China on) Naturally they're are alot more swords than that but those are the two big ones.

<font color=cadetblue>I prefer Western because I know more about them and I like the whole Middle Ages setting they're used in.
Edit: spelling...</font>

[ 08-18-2003, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: Lord Lothar ]

Eastern swords are alot easier to handle, in my experience anyway. Some Western swords are just like big sharp clubs. I much prefer the lighter eastern curved-blade varieties.

How heavy do you think western swords are? Big sharp clubs?? I don't think you;'ve got much experience with westerns at all... thats just a load of stereotypes I hear blurted out alot. No offense.

Alright now for facts.

1: Western Swords were not incredibly heavy, longswords, also known as greatswords, epee de guerre (Warswords) weighed in around 2.5 pounds, sometimes a bit more or a bit less, anything more than 3 pounds in the longsword class was considered poorly made or over adorned, it was a delicate balance. By the way longsword is a term for a 2 handed sword, not a one handed sword.
2: One haned swords: Weighed in at 1 and 1/2 pounds still some were a bit heavier or lighter but very few tipped the two pound scale.
3: Bastard swords, hand an a half, could support 2 hands or one, they weighed around 2 pounds or less.
4: Two Handed Swords: These could weigh anywhere from 3-4 pounds, this is where you would find your claedahmor's and other two handers. Big but really only an intermediary between true two handers of the renaissance and warswords.
5: True two handers of the renaissance: Massive swords that have been found up to six feet long, used to fight pike formations by lopping the tips off of the pikes. 6-8 pounds, these have the greatest amount of secondary features such as parrihaiken (parrying hooks)and 16 inch grips the biggest of the big, so large holding them in middle guard for long was difficult so it was usually used with a tail guard (erm, technical but theres no better way to explain it)

The western shield was not used to simply rest as a static defense and no matter what you see in movies or TV flinging your shield to the side when you attacked was not necessary nor safe, it would get you killed. It could intercept blows from weapons at close combat ranges and served as the primary tool of defense before plate mail armor came about. (this is not plate armor, its a juxapostion of metal plates on mail armor used to defeat the longbow this is where plastrons and cuirasses came about)

And of course this isn't to say there were no curved western swords either, look at the falcion, and the saber. (Technically the falchion was the only medieval sword, sabers, backswords, and arming swords came forth in the 15'th century.

If your having trouble handeling a real western sword (not a fantasy sword nor wallhanger) then I don't know what to say... Anyhow as I posted the western sword is so stereotyped I can't stand it. Sorry for being a bit of a bitch but its true.

[ 08-20-2003, 12:48 AM: Message edited by: Azimaith ]

Heh heh, ok man. As I said in my experience eastern swords are easier to handle. Maybe I just havn't experienced any good Western varieties ;)

Don't be scared I'm just a fanatic hehe, oh boy I gotta get a girlfriend or something heh.

I do not have any knowledge. Altough I like those niffty Katanas(CFury :D ). Oh and I also know that Smaurais´ were really loyal people who died and done Sepuku if their master told them to.

Actually thats not quite true, plenty of samurai were thugs, pillagers, and rapists who were only loyal to the comfort a master provided them. That kind of generalization doesn't really work. In fact there were plenty of cases of entire villages of innocents being destroyed by samurai not to mention there were also groups of Ronin samurai who became brigands, sometimes of course they became ronin by killing their previous master. They were as diverse a group as knights of the middle ages. During the warring states periods there were alot of disloyal samurai, I can tell you that.

I also had to think hard on the last one. My favourite is the Gladius, but i love double katanas(picture the elven weapon from LOTR's first five minutes and you'll be close) and short ninja varieties of katanas from the eastern side, and from the western i like the rapier because it's quite classy and elegant.

Double katana's??? I've got no idea what your talking about.. Maybe the dual sword style created by musashi? As for ninja katana's I assume your speaking of Ninja to's n such. Quite a diverse taste in swords I must say.

AFAIK Eastern swords like Katana and Wakizashi(?) are light and elegant, plus the fact that the blades are made by layers of folded steel makes them tough too.

If I am to choose a sword for a duel, I would probably go for a Katana.

I dunno much about eastern swords, but I own an austro-hungarian infantry officer's sabre M. 1873 and I can say it is very well balanced and light.
Sadly, its hilt is slightly damaged and its portepe is missing. (sorry I don't know english expression for portepe -have to look in the dictionary, but experts should know what I'm talking about)

[ 08-20-2003, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: Yanez ]

Actually tons and tons of blades from western europe are made from layered steel with folding. Viking swords were often done in this fashion leading to them having a beautiful (and elegant if I do say so) false damascene finish. I guess its a matter of taste but I find my bastard sword plenty elegant, it speaks with a subdued power if I do say so myself.

Personally, I prefer the far-eastern swords as opposed to the western ones. Possibly because of the ideology behind the katana... or at least, what I have heard about it. I also prefer it's shape as opposed to a longsword. I think it's also to do with the culture being so different from the western one. Sure, there were lots of rogues about - just as there were over here, but I prefer the "samurai" image to the clasical "knight in shining armour" one. But thats just a personal preference.

s'not like I can argue with personal preference, well as long as personal prefrence isn't based on absolute ignorance of facts... but hey if ya like it, ya like it.

There are not too many gun jerks on this forum, but we do have our shares of sword jerks [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Hehe I don't know whether to slap you or shake your hand for that comment heheh.

Gun jerks, you say? I happen to be one. Hmm, maybe we should turn the topic of this thread? I mean, I don't want to be rude or anything but i think that we depleted the swords as a topic.

Well, I'm not going to argue the point about "who's sword is better then who's"; because personally I think its a waste of time. As for "absolute ignorance of facts"; you could say that everyone goes on them - since we're all "trusting" another person's word/book/research. Yeah, if you've done your own research - thats good - but do you *really* know what went on when these swords were used? I wouldn't be too sure. As I said, it IS a personal preference; and I just dislike western swords as opposed to the far-eastern ones. No offense intended.

Well, I'm not going to argue the point about "who's sword is better then who's"; because personally I think its a waste of time. As for "absolute ignorance of facts"; you could say that everyone goes on them - since we're all "trusting" another person's word/book/research. Yeah, if you've done your own research - thats good - but do you *really* know what went on when these swords were used? I wouldn't be too sure. As I said, it IS a personal preference; and I just dislike western swords as opposed to the far-eastern ones. No offense intended. </font>[/QUOTE]Handeling museum relics, visiting archaelogical digs such as the battle of visby, going to lectures done by hoplologists and spathologists and looking at historical manuals such as the codex of wallerstien gives you a pretty damn good idea if I do say so myself. Sure you end up trusting someone, but hell, for all you know I could be an alien from outspace transmitting subliminal messages in the post encouraging you to put on a hamster suit and nail an aardvark to your head. I often do come across people who really really really irritate me by saying basically knowledge they learned from watching Arnie heft his foolishly designed conan the barbarian sword. Look at the sheer number of bargain basement online sword shops and their horrible marketing ploys that try to decieve those who don't know alot of them. I really despise the idealogy "The public doesn't know any better so don't worry about it." I came across it alot in all sorts of cultural and martial activities, that kind of deception I think is just not right. I enjoy all sorts of swords in truth an I find that such a beautiful weapon should be respected, not made into a novelty or made into a mockery of their true forms to appease whats popular culture at the time. How do you think the sword smiths of ancient japan would feel if they saw people selling "Blue lightning, dragon ninja, samurai katanas. (The names are all something like this) I guess i'm practically a zealot on the subject which I suppose makes me fairly intolerable when I post on it heh.

PS: I've done lion dancing performances where my coach had the same idealogy, I quit that, did performances of martial art sets and coreographed fights where they shared the same ideas.

I agree entirely. I think its an utter mockery when they try to screw ppl over.

Indeed. But until a method of technology developes that negates the devastating effectivness of firearms (force shields in the 'Dune' saga anyone? ;) ), swords will continue to diminish in terms of their respectability and formidibility as weapons. They are novelties today because they are no longer practical in real warfare. But at least the craftsmanship behind making them is being preserved by a dedicated few. So long as there are some who keep the sword-faith, these beautiful tools shall never be truly lost to history.

Who knows, one day someone might even come out with a REAL light sabre. ;)


Azimaith:

Can you provide links to sites with genuine information about swords? I am a small sword freak myself too although I know next to nothing about the matter.

[ 08-22-2003, 01:06 AM: Message edited by: Paladin2000 ]

Well heres a couple that I really like.

http://swordforum.com/

Sword Forum international just plain rocks, its got the best information on all sorts of blades as well as articles, essays, and book reviews, I love it.

http://www.thehaca.com/

This is mainly for swordsmanship but it deals with swords as well. The Historical Armed Combat Association, or HACA is now the Association for the Renaissance Martial Arts but the basic stuffs the same. Great articles and information plus video clips of training which I really like.

http://www.oakeshott.org/

The Oakeshott institute is the webpage made in honor of Ewart Oakeshott, one of the foremost authorities on swords, God bless his soul, and it has all sorts of info most importantly the Oakshotte typologies.

If you don't find what your looking for in these pages you can check out some books too.

Medieval Swordsmanship, by John clements is great, it has tons of both historical information on swords as well as basic techniques and movements for Western swordsmanship.

The Secret history of the Sword by Christopher Amberger, a very very interesting book written by a former fencing champion, he focuses a great deal on the difference between historical swordsmanship and modern fencings as well.

The Codex of Wallerstein, its hard to find but if you can get a copy of this historical manuscript on the usage of swords its well worth it, even better, if you can get one thats interpreted for you.

Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship, Sigmund Ringeck's Commentaries on Liechtenauer's Verse, once again another good book on swordsmanship.

Well I hope these helped, good luck.

Thanks for the links pal, I will check them out later. ;)

I kinda prefer the "style" of the western swords myself, but I guess this is because I find them exotic, given that I live in an area where eastern blades are a dime a dozen. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I often wonder if its not the same with the western obsession with eastern blades... Hmmm.