How do you ascertain the worth in a worldview?

Do you go on the actions of its practitioners.
Do you go on the apparent benefits the worldview brings their mindset and life?
Perhaps you ignore the practitioners and look at the originator and their life.
Do you focus on the ideas alone. Do the ideas inherant within a philosophy attract you?
Do you incorporate different views under one umbrella? If so:
(a)How do you balance the worth of accumulated wisdom within a balanced and layered view with your own perspective and the idea that you can know more than the originator(s).
(b)What is the balance between your behavioural choices and your theological/cosmic beliefs. Does one outweigh the other?
Have you had a supernatural experience?
Perhaps you have balanced all the above?


I am interested in the process by which you come to a conclusion. Thus there is no right or wrong. I do not wish to engage in a discussion or argument about the merits or correctness of the said beliefs, just how and why you came to hold them. There will be aspects I have not included, so do not feel limited by those listed.

Post away! Post away! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 08-28-2001).]

Ooooh, and I thought I asked lots of questions!!!

Okay, to summarize, I look at the worldview ideas alone, first. I pass those ideas through my mental filter, and either agree, disagree, or just watch with interest. I don't see much of a point in following a worldview if you agree with its practitioners but disagree with its ideas -- it just doesn't make any sense to me.

I might then look at the practitioners, but "with a grain of salt", as I think it's only human that each one filters the primary worldview down through their own mentality and picks and chooses how to follow or apply it (regardless of what the priest or leader says). Religious practitioners are never clones, regardless of the group all following the same belief. Some practitioners of nearly every religion are likely to be inspiring people, just as other practitioners would steer you away entirely by their actions.

To some extent, I'll look at the originator and his/her way of life (if it's available -- for instance, who started the various religions of American Indian tribes or nations???).

Mostly, though, I either like the ideas within a worldview or I don't.

Gosh, you still have a lot of questions... um...
"Do you incorporate different views under one umbrella?"
To some extent, yes (the bits and pieces I like!). To put it one way, just because you're a Christian doesn't mean that you wouldn't maybe find some tenets of Taoism or Zen Buddhism to make some sense and be useful (and provide perspective on a matter that perhaps the Bible didn't address).
a) I don't assume that I know more than the originator -- I happen to have an open mind, that's all.
b) Hard to answer! Sorry. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif
Have I had a supernatural experience? Hmmmm... yes and no. Subtle ones, yes. Anything as concrete as voices or visions, no. More like feelings. I think like a lot of people it would be a heck of a lot simpler if God (or Goddess, or the Great Spirit, or whomever) would simply step out in front of me and say "here I am" or "do this", but I haven't had so concrete an experience. Instead we have the books and stories and collected writings of others who report having this happen to them -- but that's them (not little old me). Faith can exist just as well (if not better) in the presence of proof as it can in the absence of it.

Just as an aside, that's one thing that appealed to me about the David Eddings' series including The Belarion -- the gods in these stories would often manifest themselves within a heroic group, and were active and present and tangible in the world and even had a lovely sense of humor in certain cases.

Hey thanks AliCat. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif Very interesting.

Alas, you and I are alone in here at the moment http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/frown.gif

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

Oh man, i feel a headache comming... erhm.

When I hear of a worldview I have to admit, that I "steal" or loan bits I like, or see fit with s value that I have, or I simple reevluate my own. I have so far never truly fallen for any worldview sofar, and maybe thats not the point with them,but to give you hints and ideas?

When I first discover a new worldview, I try to read or find out the ideas alone. That way I try to see if it is basicly as I feel or if I feel enlightened by it. Something new that I have missed or is it based on something I can´t agree too?

The next step is to see how it is in real life. The practiotioners, and are they way out of there and have distorted the feel I got from the original ideas, I don´t call myself for a follower of that idea or worldview. I try to see wich pat is functional for me, or which ideas got me thinking more.

The practioners can also be the one that makes you reevaluate the concept thinking aof an ide both for better or worse, yet I´m a bit of a lonewolf, and I tend to stay away from masses of people since I think that the more people shouting glory glory or bab bad, the less the true argumentation o do better is lost in a masshyptnotism that you ae doing the right thing, or see a thing more clear than others. I prefer little small talks with peope where one can state an idea or point of view without bein interupted. The net is erfect http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif. If it gets out of hand, just type, oups, my coffe is boiling! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif (OK, crude joke) But you see what I´m ggetting at I hope.

To answer the A question. I try to see what parts o an original idea that makes me reevaluate or upgrade my point of view of the world. Is it basicly the same, it has nothing to offer me. I want new ideas or new concepts to think, debate or even argue about. Can I know more than the originar? Of course, who is to say that one person got it right? But if it i so.. I don+t know or I don´t care. Some ideas are too perfect for me, since I have a bit of a pessimistic worldview as it is, I like the ones that tend to admit to problems, rather than futile ideas of reaching Utopia within the next month! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

b) This ne i don´t even know if I can answer for you Yorrick. My mind sometimess work alone, and even leave me behind sometimes. My behavioural life is however not that close the my worldview. As I stated above, I´m rather pessimistic in that ne, however I don´t feel that I have the right o act out that on all people or treat them after my point of view. I try to fight the pessimistic worldview I have, case that worldview isn´t fun. You don´t have to believ in that everythin is going to be alright or gloriuos for trying to make it so regardless.

My balance is not existing, my worldview change everyday, and so does my mood, and as person, thoose two things have o much to do with whom I am, i can´t have a balance, cause that would mean to give up on one of them. Probably going to be clearer if you know me, but that is had, cause i sometimes wonder if I know myself well enough to explain that http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

Supernatural experience. I don´t know. We sometimes make up a "perfect" solution to describe things so we can understand it. I might have, but might also have accepted it for something else.

I have no balance. Chaos is to much part of me, and chaos is balance and no balance at the same time! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

Well if you gottenthis far, congratulations. I hope you can find some interesting in all my mumbling! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif
Cheers


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http://wolfgir.najk.net/wolfie.gif
Be vevvy qwiet..I´m hunting wabbits...
Wolfgirs lair
once-upon-a-paper

How do you ascertain the worth in a worldview?
Do you go on the actions of its practitioners.

If I am aware of them, yes, to some extent. For instance, I just don’t want to know about Aleistair Crowley’s views. Even his name fills me with revulsion – and I have never read anything he has written, so it is illogical, and obviously because of the influence of the thinking of other people whom I respect. (gosh, this is making me look bad!)

Do you go on the apparent benefits the worldview brings their mindset and life?

No. Often, the ‘best’ worldviews leave the individuals concerned as apparent ‘losers’, (look at Jesus).

Perhaps you ignore the practitioners and look at the originator and their life.

Well, you have to, don’t you? Again, look at Jesus and look at the record of christianity, which is enough to put anyone off!

Do you focus on the ideas alone. Do the ideas inherent within a philosophy attract you?

Um. I hate the word ‘philosophy’. My little brain says ‘complicated’ and switches off.

Do you incorporate different views under one umbrella? If so:

Doesn’t everyone?

(a)How do you balance the worth of accumulated wisdom within a balanced and layered view with your own perspective and the idea that you can know more than the originator(s).

(b)What is the balance between your behavioural choices and your theological/cosmic beliefs. Does one outweigh the other?

Um. None of the above, lol! I just glean thoughts, ideas, opinions, whatever, from a wide variety of sources, often forgotten where from, and weave ‘em into a tapestry as the warp to my own weft of thoughtful consideration and illogical bias.

Have you had a supernatural experience?

Sigh. Maybe. Maybe not. Don’t know. The brain does funny things. But if you mean have I been visited by angels or things of that sort, then definitely not.

Perhaps you have balanced all the above?

You decide when you have read the above, lol!

There will be aspects I have not included, so do not feel limited by those listed.

I’m sticking with the list. Saves me having to think! I was up VERY late last night.

http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif


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[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 08-30-2001).]

Wolfgir, fascinating post! Thankyou my friend. Fjlotsdale, you too. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

Rather a shame no one else is posting here.... what about you, Yorick? How do you answer those questions you posed? http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

How do you ascertain the worth in a worldview?

Do you go on the actions of its practitioners?

Not intentionally as I find this can be misleading. All humans are imperfect. I do look at the joy, peace, happiness and perspective it seems to bring them though. It can be hard looking past negative actions of a practitioner, but I do try. Having a father who is a minister quickly alerts you to the knowledge that even "holy and wise men" are flawed.

Do you go on the apparent benefits the worldview brings their mindset and life?

See above.

Perhaps you ignore the practitioners and look at the originator and their life.

In my case my eyes are firmly on the originator. Sometimes I see aspects of him in his followers. Only by "knowing him" can I see this though.

Do you focus on the ideas alone. Do the ideas inherant within a philosophy attract you?

Yes. Ideas do. However I do look at the whole picture. At the ideas themself, at the reasons one should take on the ideas, the day to day application of these, the negative things it is reacting against, and what the personal result taking on those ideas have in my life.


Do you incorporate different views under one umbrella? If so:
(a)How do you balance the worth of accumulated wisdom within a balanced and layered view with your own perspective and the idea that you can know more than the originator(s).

I generally have found that a view adhered to by large numbers of people over many years, has to include even seemingly small details to work. Replace grace with Karma in Christianity and Jesus death makes no sense. Add grace into the Hindu Karmic system and differing rebirths don't seem fair. Place pantheism into Islam and Allah no longer is an independent personality seperate from creation.

That said, within a codified faith it is perfectly concievable that we should be able to know more than it's early believers. In Christianity, though time obscures older facts, we have more record of the way God has worked. We can view the gospels in context, with hindsight, against history, and against things that occur today. That said, physically knowing Jesus in Palestine would have been astounding.


(b)What is the balance between your behavioural choices and your theological/cosmic beliefs. Does one outweigh the other?

My behaviour is directly influenced by my belief system. Were I not of the persuasion I am, I would be a hedonistic, drug abusing, philandering, totally arrogant yet freaked out rock and rolling musician. Instead I am the humblest person I know. Humility is my middle name. No-one is more humble than I....er hang on.. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/eek7.gif

Seriously my faith changes my actions. I draw inner strength, creative inspiration, solace, companionship and wonderment directly from my relationship with my God. Experiences are magnified. Looking at the patterns on a leaf becomes similar to looking at a masters painting for me. Thus I stop and look at the leaf - belief dictates behaviour.

Have you had a supernatural experience?

I have had friends who claim to have seen Angels - fallen and otherwise. I have a friend who was cured of a sight problem in one eye at a healing service. To the point that they had headaches etc. from the influx of visual reception. I have another aquaintance healed of chronic back complaints, and another from cancer.

Compared to this, no I have not.

However when I look back at key moments in my life I see direction. I see key things occurring that were insignificant at the time, yet became ultimately important in shaping who I am. I also have been saved from death and serious injury on more than one occasion - from car accidents, electrocution, and an intestinal problem/blood loss. Others would see coincidence, I see a God.

Perhaps you have balanced all the above?

Balance is an aim of mine though not always attained.




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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

You don't need belief for that, Yorick. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif I've always 'looked at the leaf'. As a child, the natural world was a source of endless fascination to me, and still is.
Most people never 'see the leaf', the blade of grass, the flowering weed in the gutter. They live cocooned in their own minds.

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I'm talking the change in MY actions Fjlotsdale. My belief dictates my behaviour. I'm not speaking for or about anyone else. I'm very aware that others may not need belief to do this. A painter, photographer or nature lover for example. I am however talking about the impact my personal perspective has on my actions.

This is not meant to be a "my way is right" thread, but an exploration of the processes by which people come to perceptional conclusions. There is no right or wrong here.

Actually perhaps this thread would have had more responses if I'd posted this:

right ok...on other threads i'm the philospoher. everybody knows i'm really smart woof woof meeoww... ok....freud kicks a$$...what i want to know is...but this isn't bout freud...nah.. ok which potatoe is best

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

Do you go on the actions of its practitioners.
No, too many practioners spoil the soup http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

Do you go on the apparent benefits the worldview brings their mindset and life?
See above answer http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

Perhaps you ignore the practitioners and look at the originator and their life.
I definitely look to the originator for focus and clarification where I find things that I want or need to understand on a higher level.

Do you focus on the ideas alone.
The ideas are only a part of the whole picture. I take into consideration cause and effect as well as long term consequences of applying said ideas to life on a personal and on a worldwide level, meaning that I consider the animals, the atmosphere, and the environment as well as humans when I comtemplate the ideas and their worth...when I think that some of those ideas may encompass all aspects of life that is.

Do the ideas inherant within a philosophy attract you?
I find a few philosophy's ideas work with others philosphies and even religions to create what I feel is harmony and balance in my own life. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

Do you incorporate different views under one umbrella?
Most definitely...they are the spices that make the soup edible. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

If so:
(a)How do you balance the worth of accumulated wisdom within a balanced and layered view with your own perspective and the idea that you can know more than the originator(s).
I believe that I do know more than those individuals who just stick to one particular mindset of ideals and philosophies throughout life but I don't believe that I can know more than the originator(s), rather that I can only hope to at least reach an educated understanding of them through practice of my beliefs and through my faith. I believe life is an ever-learning process and if I die knowing it all, well then, something went wrong somewhere (lol)

(b)What is the balance between your behavioural choices and your theological/cosmic beliefs.
It is pretty well balanced as I have seen the progression of a greater measure of peace and harmony with myself and the rest of the planet since I undertook the practice end of my responsibility toward understanding.

Does one outweigh the other?
At times, but I am reminded by dischord (inner or outer) that an imbalance has occured and I focus on discovering my missteps and then on working to restore the balance when that happens.

Have you had a supernatural experience?
Quite a few actually, but nothing that has frightened me since I was twenty three or twenty four years old.

Perhaps you have balanced all the above?
Off and on, it is a struggle to maintain a perfect balance when offered temptations to stray into areas of life that are not harmonious with what I consider my level of perfect balance. Life is a job we must learn to enjoy. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

There you go. I hope I did not add any confusion to your thought provoking thread! LOL http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif
Great thread btw! I am sure more people will take a look at it and start posting...when I initailly read it, I wasn't sure exactly what you meant (a reading comprehension deficit caused by lack of sleep and overworking myself at school & home http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif ) but when I read it again today and the answers posted by AliCat, Wolfgir, Fljotsdale and yourself, it all became quite clear...at least I think it did! (well I did get a good night's sleep too. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif )

P.S. Idaho Russets. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

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http://members.aol.com/lasttrueprincess/images/ltp4.gif

You know childhood is over when a puddle seems like an obstacle instead of an opportunity.

Is Too! Is Not! Is Too! Is Not!


[This message has been edited by Moni (edited 09-02-2001).]

Oops! Sorry! Didn't mean to sound crass! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

Hmm!? http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/eek7.gif




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Interesting responses, Yorick and Moni! Hmmm, Idaho russet, huh? I just like a nice baking potato myself... http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

Your comments about regarding a leaf, Yorick, actually reminded me of some thoughts of my own. I was brought up atheist/agnostic, and fully educated in the evolutionary views, which I do believe -- the evidence is there, the theory makes sense. HOWEVER... if I hold up a leaf in the sunlight and really look at it closely, at the organization, at the way the individual cells or units seem to sparkle like emeralds in the light coming through... looking at the intricacy and totally unnecessary beauty that is there... that is what proved to me that there is a God or greater being. Sounds dumb, maybe, but I have a hard time believing that a set of genetic codifiers had any need to make things as simple as a leaf, a pebble, or tree bark to be beautiful. To me, that takes a God who appreciates the beauty in every living thing, who can make crystals out of strands of hair, who has the patience to make even minute things incredibly intricate and interesting (dust mites notwithstanding).

So, I'm simple-minded. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

Mmmmm Idaho Russets are best baked. They are yet another one of my weaknesses LOL. You've had cravings since you became pregnant right? With me it was baked potatoes, I kid you not! My oven stayed on almost 24-7 so that there would always be a hot fresh baked potato to satify my craving! I read that you are getting little kitten kicks http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif Thats so cool! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif
Wishing you good health and needed rest. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

Yorick, my apologies for moving the topic to taters & babies temporarily!


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http://members.aol.com/lasttrueprincess/images/ltp4.gif

You know childhood is over when a puddle seems like an obstacle instead of an opportunity.

Is Too! Is Not! Is Too! Is Not!

No, not simple minded. It is deep indeed to concieve abstractly. Such a conclusion from analysis is beautiful, and I thank you for sharing this. I agree wholeheartedly.

I heard of a Russian painter who had a similar experience (raised athiest etc) when he viewed his hand. He concluded a designer existed despite beeing indoctrinated out of concieving such a notion.



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

No, Alicat! Not simple minded at all! I agree with Yorick. You are a very wonderful person to be able to see the innate beauty of nature with such appreciation.

But what's wrong in seeing all that beauty WITHOUT believing in a creator?
I made a comment about it in this thread myself, as a non-believer.

I feel a very deep bond with the natural world. Under a microscope, AliCat, a leaf, a bug, a microbe, is even more amazingly beautiful and incredible - but that does not have to bespeak a creator. Design is said to need a designer, because design HAS to come from intelligence. But why?
Look at crystals - marvels of design, aren't they? But they are just obeying the inherant laws of their substance. So is everything else. THAT is the real marvel.
You may think that laws need a lawgiver, but I do not think that is the case. A substance, by its nature, can only act in a certain way. Its nature is its law, it did not have to have a law imposed upon it by anything/anyone else.

Appreciation of beauty is not the exclusive prerogative of believers!
A world view does not have to be based on belief in a creator to be valid and good. Sometimes, despite knowing believers who are sincere, I think a world full of people whose worlview was WITHOUT belief in a god would would make the world a safer and more beautiful place.



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Do you go on the actions of its practitioners.

no, when you see a big opportunity posted on the front cover of an investment magzine, well, it is already too late. so don't follow the crowd


Do you go on the apparent benefits the worldview brings their mindset and life?
Perhaps you ignore the practitioners and look at the originator and their life.

see above


Do you focus on the ideas alone. Do the ideas inherant within a philosophy attract you?

well... whatever the most profitable goes, of course it must be legal and it must not be based on the harm of others


Do you incorporate different views under one umbrella? If so:

yes, I like to keep options open

(a)How do you balance the worth of accumulated wisdom within a balanced and layered view with your own perspective and the idea that you can know more than the originator(s).

your portfolio is proportional to the number of failures you encounter. the key is: failure is only a failure is you admits it. failures inspire winners and defeat losers. within your life time, you can generate more wealth than anyone on the earth!


(b)What is the balance between your behavioural choices and your theological/cosmic beliefs. Does one outweigh the other?

there is no balance, it is all about seeking opportunities and understand the risk


Have you had a supernatural experience?

yeah, when I just put all my budgets into a public company, BOOOM, market crash


Perhaps you have balanced all the above?

well, stay focused if you are poor. balance never grows, always remember: a risk is a risk because you are ignorant about it. balanced investment does not generate wealth

LOL, just kidding Yorick

Law does need a giver. If a law is deemed "natural" by a humanist, then nature is deemed to be the lawmaker. The earth or the universe itself.

The value in seeing a designer, is that the beauty has a reason. A purpose. It can be related to. Put simply with belief I can appreciate everything about a leaf the nonbeliever does - and then some. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/tongue.gif Rather than just the physical there is the spiritual appreciation. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

LOL! For me, my friend, it's the other way round - I appreciate it more because of LACK of 'spiritual' appreciation. It makes me realise I can't depend on a higher power to fix the damage we are doing to the environment - we have to work for it ourselves!
So http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/tongue.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/tongue.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/tongue.gif



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It can't be the other way around Fjlotsdale, I'm not talking about feeling awe or wonder or admiring beauty. I don't depend on a higher power to fix the environment either. I believe we were given stewardship of the planet. We've made our own bed, and will have to fix it ourselves if we want clean sheets! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

I'm talking about, when spiritual, the process of seeing TWO things where there is one. One sees the beauty of the leaf, and one sees genius in the mind of the creator at the same time Without belief, one only sees the leaf, because one denys a creator.

It's like looking at a lake that has "always been there". Everyone can see and appreciate the lake. Hypothetically if some people for some reason see a waterfall feeding the lake - the source of the lakes water, then they are viewing both the source and the end result, and can marvel at both. Whereas if for some hypothetical reason some cannot see this waterfall, they can only ever marvel at the lake, at the end result.

You get what I'm saying? The belief gives an extra abstract dimension to the viewing an object.

Oh and don't try and say "oh but I can see the wonder of evolution in a lamb" because evolution is still the end result - part of created reality. I too can say that. A Christian can be an evolutionist marvelling at the theory and still be appreciating the creator.

I realise this concept must irritate you tremendously Fjlotsdale... http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/tongue.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 09-03-2001).]

What makes you so certain that your way of viewing is the only way to see and appreciate deeper, into the spiritual realm? To suppose so strikes me as approaching a sort of spiritual arrogance. Even an Atheist may perceive deeply into the nature of meaning. Who are you to say that you value a leaf more? Or life more? Or the universe more? Or all of existence? Presumptuous indeed.

The Law requires a Maker argument is based on a logical fallacy, btw. It confuses different meanings of the word "Law." Man-made "law" is Prescriptive -- it is a command ordering either to do an act refrain from an act. "Law" in this sense does require a lawgiver. A command implies a commander.

The laws of Nature, on the other hand, are merely Descriptive -- they are descriptive models which humans have formulated from observation which describe how nature and the universe does in fact behave, not orders or commands for it to behave a certain way.









[This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 09-04-2001).]

Individuals make up any collective, whether its a shared viewpoint or a corporation. As Individuals vary, it would be short-sighted to judge a belief or system of beliefs by the actions any one individual, or small group of individuals. So I dont.

The benifits of a worldview have a cause and effect relationship with it's ideals and philosphys. An ideal of compassion has the benifit of a sense of peace. A belief in abundance can lead to wealth. This cause/effect relationship is one way I ascertain the value of a belief within a system. It is both the individual ideals and the benifits of such that attract me to a belief system.

The originator of a viewpoint usually isn't. Someone knew it before they did, and all they are is the messenger. If the originator is an individual or small group, I can only put a limited amount of value in using one to judge, as I stated above.

I incorporate many "worldviews" under one "umbrella".

I see my place in the universe, whatever I know or don't know, and that somebody else does/doesn't know.

Behavioral choices, hmmmm. The worldview I chose concerning behavior is a do unto others sort. "Harm none and do as though will" ,The Wiccan rede sums it up nicely.
It causes inner-conflict to go against one's beliefs. Its not that uncommon for a person to believe something and then act in away that isn't in accordance with that belief. Guilt is the likely to be felt in this classic inner-struggle. Perhaps it builds character or something, to learn from yourself like that? Anyway, once again I point out a cause-effect relationship between action and belief.

Supernatural...does that mean beyond nature or Nature enchanced? Ive definitly had some enchanced expiriences with nature. I believe in the inner-realm of each individual, and that angels and spirit guides are exist within and without. They told me so.
Also -ghosts, astral projection, esp, remote viewing. All Perfectly Natural if you ask mehttp://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

So I think as much introspection as extraspection is important to ascertaining a world view. Being open-minded and juggling ideas for oneself and relying on logic and intutition together to judge fairly and accuratly.

Oh, I know what you are saying ok, Yorick! I can just see your smug grin!! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gifAnd yeah, it irritates me into paroxysms of fury! Becaue believing in creation AND evolution is a total contradiction, whatever you say! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/tongue.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/tongue.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...hterpurple.gif

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Thank you, Diogenes!! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif You put it MUCH better than I did! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif



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Nice selection, Yorick. I think I'll take a shot at this...

Do you go on the actions of its practitioners.
To a certain extent, but mostly in an investigatory sense. It is educational to me to observe how groups of people interpret and act on a particular worldview.

Do you go on the apparent benefits the worldview brings their mindset and life?
As above

Perhaps you ignore the practitioners and look at the originator and their life.
When possible, yes. It is much easier to investigate L. Ron Hubbard than it is to investigate the originators of Druidic Paganism, for example. Often the life and circumstances of the originator shed light on the context of the belief system.

Do you focus on the ideas alone. Do the ideas inherant within a philosophy attract you?
Absolutely, especially if it is an idea that I haven't run across before

Do you incorporate different views under one umbrella? If so:
Yep, all my life experiences, direct or vicarious, have influenced my worldview.

(a)How do you balance the worth of accumulated wisdom within a balanced and layered view with your own perspective and the idea that you can know more than the originator(s).
I see the development of a worldview as I do the development of technology. You don't need to go back to the stone axe to design a drill press. However, a clear understanding of the history and development of a worldview is necessary to place it all in context, just as an understanding of math is needed to use a calculator. (that may be a crappy analogy, but it's all i've got right now!)

(b)What is the balance between your behavioural choices and your theological/cosmic beliefs. Does one outweigh the other?
I try to live my life in harmony with my beliefs. I'm not in perfect balance yet, and likely never will be. I believe the disparity is one of the primary ways in which I improve myself.

Have you had a supernatural experience?
Hmmmm, I don't regard anything as "supernatural" insofar as if it exists, it is part of the universe, and therefore natural. I've had a number of things happen which I have no explanation for other than the existence of the event. That is what makes life worth living, in my mind: the existence of mystery.

Perhaps you have balanced all the above?
Would that I could, I might have more to offer... still working on it...

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown:
What makes you so certain that your way of viewing is the only way to see and appreciate deeper, into the spiritual realm? To suppose so strikes me as approaching a sort of spiritual arrogance.

Did I say that I did? I used the words "spiritual" and "belief in a Creator". Islamic Suffis or Jews or anyone else that percieves an independant creator could have the same appreciation of Artist/Art. You are again presuming a mindset that does not exist. Read what I say and take the words as they are.

Even an Atheist may perceive deeply into the nature of meaning. Who are you to say that you value a leaf more? Or life more? Or the universe more? Or all of existence? Presumptuous indeed.

Could they indeed? By way of logic an athiest would see the physical, a spiritualist would see the physical and the metaphysical. Even if they are wrong (this is not about who's right or wrong) The person that percieves a creator is seeing TWO THINGS in the one object, whereas one who sees only the physical sees just one. This is logic. If you see two things you are seeing one thing more than the person who sees one.

Furthermore I made no judgement on how much someone values something. I actually clarified it if you would have read it. I distanced the amount seen from the amount valued. Again, read what I write Dio. Please! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/rolleyes.gif

The Law requires a Maker argument is based on a logical fallacy, btw. It confuses different meanings of the word "Law." Man-made "law" is Prescriptive -- it is a command ordering either to do an act refrain from an act. "Law" in this sense does require a lawgiver. A command implies a commander.

The laws of Nature, on the other hand, are merely Descriptive -- they are descriptive models which humans have formulated from observation which describe how nature and the universe does in fact behave, not orders or commands for it to behave a certain way.

Dio with either descriptive or prescriptive, something needs to exist for those "laws" to be enabled and work. Law is the word we have chosen to use to describe both, but this doesn't change the fact that without this particular earth or universe those "laws" would not exist. In that case the universe or planet itself is the "lawmaker", as a creator would be.


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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 09-04-2001).]

Moni -- nope, no cravings. Rather disappointing. I was hoping to convince my husband that I had a craving for some expensive ice cream, but... no such luck. I'm almost having the opposite -- chocolate no longer does anything for me. Quite disappointing. That's a major change in my life. (change it back!!!)

Fljotsdale -- like Yorick, I still find in a sense that if you have a design, there's a designer around somewhere. And I believe that everything has a design -- black holes, whatever -- but we haven't necessarily discovered it yet. I'm not sure that chaos really exists, or that it's just a word we use to define things we don't understand the design of yet. Yes, crystals and microbes and all have a design, yet can differ even so. But to me, the incredible intricacy and weaving together of this web just proves even more that there is a higher power at work, even if you want to call that higher power the Tao or Great Spirit or whatever.

You said something about the fact of not having a Creator helped you view better that it's our responsibility to clean up the messes we make of nature (at least that's how I interpret what you said). That's fine, and to some extent I agree if you are only going by the 18th or 19th century view of man being justified by the Bible to have dominion over all living things (by the historical view, I mean the prevailing view that justified a lot of destruction of farmland and abuse of animals -- rather similar to the less godly ideas of certain capitalists these days that the US needs more energy to support the population's decadent lifestyles so therefore let's drill the heck out of our national parks without thinking of the consequences or truly justifying our actions).(okay, off the soapbox).

I guess the way I view the situation is that Creator or not, I really don't think it's the Creator's responsibility to clean up our messes, and in a sense, we are purposefully being left in this position to teach us responsibility, like a bunch of children who've wrecked their playground. My other view here is that nature, by design, has a way of dealing with things -- like how there's a type of bacteria that eats up the oil in oil spills. Or like how a plague or an ice age can wipe a species out, yet enable another species to exist or flourish. There's a reason for everything, and perhaps one mighty purpose is that nothing lives forever, and it (life) wouldn't be any fun that way anyway.

Immortality is not an option, thank heavens. I talked to one lady today who said, "I'm only 83. That's still fairly young." Most of the more aged folks I've talked to are happy to be over 90 or 100 so long as they still feel good (bones aren't breaking, organs intact), but a lot of the rest of the population does not want to get that old, either for fear of physical failure or, like my grandmother, because all her friends and relatives her age had already died before her, and she had no one in that age group left. To some extent, that's another example of a design being present, and thereby, a designer.

I digress. Back to "The Yorick and Diogenes Show"! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif Just kidding, guys -- love watching the dialogue here.

AliCat (P.S. I'm introverted and quiet in "real life"... can't tell, can ya?)

Yorick, you keep alluding to assumptions I am supposedly making about your religious beliefs. I am not. I am basing my comments on what you say. I know nothing else about your personal religion nor presume to know. If I am misunderstanding, then I trust you will correct me as the conversation progresses http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

As for spiritual value, how could one measure it? You cannot simply quantify it. It defies quantificiation. I believe reality is such that people cannot escape being spiritual, whether they realize it or not, even atheists like Fljotsdale http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif -- even though I suspect she is a rare atheist who actually realizes the spiritual essence of life http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

Regarding the Cosmic Law Giver: Sorry, but I have never been moved by the Necessity of a Creator argument. Why can't you just accept that reality simply is? Why must you add the extra step of a creating force? There is no reason to assume as much, nor does it make logical sense. Eventually, you MUST accept that something can simply be -- whether it be God or the universe. If you can accept that, logically, then why take the extra step to begin with?

I cannot help but go by what I see. As God is outside my comprehension it is easier to accept him just "being" than nature. All in nature has beginnings and endings. It is cyclic. Our life itself is cyclic. Nothing in nature simply "is". The concept of something not starting is an anathema to our experience. Also as humans we create. Every human has the potential to be artisticly creative. If you hope or plan for tomorrow you are creating scenarios. Creating. It is part of what defines us as human. The ability to hypothesise different scenarios and take the best course of action, instead of relying on instinct.

In tune with my own creative forces I cannot do anything other than see design, plan, order, ordered chaos, beauty, unecessary artistic beauty that screams of artistic design.

Secondly I choose to believe this. This is faith. By choosing this, everything makes sense to me. Death, pain, love, rain, beauty, shame. It gives me a calmness. A polarity no matter what gets thrown my way. When my marriage failed I very nearly died. In the events leading up to it and after it live was too hard, there was too much conflict, to much of a gaping hole, too much of a void that it left. I felt God through it. I have felt Gods healing as I've travelled afterwards. Seen his hand in a sunset or a persons smile, in the song of a bird or the taste of a plum. Life contains to many unecessary joys, to much that needs to be learned, to much commeraderie through despair to be without design. When I was lying on a hospital bed, unable to walk, not allowed to eat, my distressed wife falling to pieces beside me. I again felt God, reordered my priorities. I had a charting record and was so caught up in the shallow promotion of it and the world of appearances, urgency, need for success despite my having a Christian ethos and relationship with God.

To much have I learned the hard way to throw it away. It would be like saying light just "is" when I can plainly see the sun, shadows and darkness when it leaves, despite being burned by it, warmed by it, guided by it. How can I not see a creator, a guide, a God that loves me, a God that has forgiven the many many failings I have, the mistakes that I've made. A God that continues to provide such wonderful experiences and people in my life.



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

I'm pretty sure you won't believe this, Yorick, but I relate exactly to almost everything you have said in the above post (nothing musical, not the illness) - but without having god in the picture. I could have written it and meant it as passionately as you do.

So wherein lies the difference of experience? http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/ponder.gif

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Sorry to take so long getting back to you with this, AliCat!

Yes, I agree about design, if by design you mean everything has a natural form dictated by what it IS – like a salt crystal has it’s own shape, and a quartz crystal, and a DNA double helix (which is, I think, the same in all life forms, and only varies in the detail – which is specific to the life type and species).

Regarding whether or not god ia responsible for fixing things:
Well, AliCat, if you are a christian, the bible says just that – that god is going to fix everything. Sure, it also says man was put here to turn the entire earth into a paradise – but one of the reasons Jesus was sent was because we were signally failing to do so and we needed to be put back on the right lines. The bible also points out that we will fail, and only god will be able to fix it for us. While many people are presently unaware of bible teachings, they USED to be, and the attitude of ‘leaving god to fix it’ still underlies a lot of our neglect, imho, even though the basis of the attitude no longer remains. Which is why I think we would do better if we looked at the world and what needs to be done without the filter of belief in god.

I agree about nature having a way of dealing with things. I don’t ‘specially want it to ‘deal with’ us, though!

Oh, and did you know that the bible also promises everlasting life ON EARTH? Like it or not, that’s the promise!

Introverted, huh? Me too! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/noncgi/smiles/485.gif

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[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 09-06-2001).]

Oh come on Fjlotsdale! For Pete's sake! I have knowledge of the bible and am a member of Greenpeace amongst other things. Earth was already a paradise. Quote where you think Humanity needed to do anything to turn it into one.
Also do you really believe that a God outside of time didn't know Humanity would fall?

Man, I don't know what Christians you've hung around, but I don't know any who just "leave God to fix it".

However it quantifies it as a NEW heaven and a new earth Fjlotsdale, not this one.



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

The difference is I expressed it and you didn't http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/tongue.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/tongue.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/tongue.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/tongue.gif


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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

Um. No, the earth wasn't a Paradise, Yorick! Just one bit of it was! Check out Genesis 1:28; 2:8,15; 3:17,18,23. It even seems to have had a hedge or fence round it since an angel was placed 'at the entrance' to keep them out when they were banished. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/tongue.gif

The christians who just 'leave god to fix it' that I spoke of, Yorick, are not present-day christians as you would realise if stopped feeling angry long enough to read my post properly! Gosh, you do get angry a lot for a christian, don't you, lol! No worries - I know it is only because you feel strongly about it, and (maybe?) you think I am trying to twist things, and mislead people. But you ought to know by now that I would not do such a thing. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

And, yeah, a god outside time certainly could know mankind would fail. But there is another way of looking at it: that your god could choose to 'wait and see', rather than looking. After all - he did NOT KNOW that Abraham would actually go the full way and sacrifice Isaac, did he? Not until afterwards?Remember? "NOW I DO KNOW... etc". He didn't beforehand.

New Heavens and a New Earth. Yes. But new in what way, Yorick? Is god going to destroy the earth and the heaven he lives in and replace both with new ones? I think not. Remember: 'The earth is standing even forever'(Ecclesiastes 1:4) 'He did not create it simply for nothing, he created it even to be inhabited'(Isaiah 45:18) (see also Proverbs 2:21,22; Psalm 37:9-11,29; Isaiah 65:17,21,22,23)
The book of Revelation is largely symbolic, so 'New' heavens and earth is meant symbolically, too.
Wanna discuss it? http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

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She must hang out with the same ones I do http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif I do agree with Fjlotsdale in this regard. Many Christians do hide behind that statement "god will fix it" but are then confused when years later it isn't any better.

I went to lunch on Tuesday with a friend and I asked her what she thought about the world's problems, based from the discussions of this forum. This was her word for word response "I don't really think about it, it's Gods problem not mine" honest truth!! She is Roman Catholic and this is her belief http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no.../hollering.gif and no I am not saying that this is representative of all Christians, but I do beleive it is the view of many of them.


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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

This has nothing to do with them being a Christian though Moridin. There are plenty of people who think "oh Greenpeace will protest this" or "the government will do this, they've done the research". How is that different? I repeat, the Christians I know either recycle, excercise choice in buying ecofriendly products, sponsor children in 3rd world countries, give to the Salvos (another Christian Church) etc etc etc.

Now before Diogenes jumps down my throat I'll clarify that not only Christians do this... http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/rolleyes.gif I am talking about the ones I know. I don't know any Christians who believe God will magically fix the problem with the earth. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I have met a large number you know http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif




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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

Fjlotsdale, I don't need a bible to tell me the earth was paradise. I just have to go over Pittwater in Sydney by boat to the opposite side of the Barenjoey Peninsular and lie on the sand looking up at the trees, hills, rocks and birds feeling warmed by the sun to know that I am in Paradise. Then I go back, sit in the middle of a traffic island surrounded by noisey cars, fume choked air, drug addicts and haunted crazies sleeping in excrement, rats and garbage, and I'm in comparitive hell. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

And no I'm not going to discuss the other stuff with you Fjlotsdale, because you will pull verses out of context of the larger picture. "Now I know" does not necessitate a removal of omniscience when viewed in the larger picture of Abrahams actions. It created a degree of trust and reliance in Abraham. The action was for Abrahams benefit, and our knowledge of Gods character, not Gods knowledge of events.

A new heaven and earth being metaphorical? Of course, how can we adequately conceptualise that which we have no experience of? Who knows what the afterlife will entail. It certainly will not be here, in this body, with these limitations.



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

Hmm, can´t help but to but in here http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif
On the views of life, I think we can all say that most peoples, believers of a higher deity, a religion, a pholisophical thesis, have all to adjust all they see, all they hear all that they experience around themsleves. Otherwise they would be living someone elses truth. I think that most (don´t dare to take a stronger word to the keyboard) peopl take bits and advice from most things and tries to puzzle out a "bearable truth" to live in.

For example, Yorick defines his belifes and I find many things in it as the same as I have, though we might grant the "extra" feeling from them to different purposes. Where Yorick finds god, I can find nature and chaos.
THe meaning is that we can all marvel and find truths that are not truth, but simply away that we have created to understand and view things. People have notoriously tried to take things apat and categorize themsince as long as we can find evidence. We like order and structuree, to know things. In a part we as persons are not that far behind, cause when I see something I have more or less a "defined" way into viewing and approach it. I can be openminded none the less, but a certain pattern builed on alot of things like memories, wxperience read articles etc etc will always have some impact on how we see, act od handles something we encounter. To debate wether this is right or wrong is as most of you have already stated, silly and utterly pointless. We can´t know, and that bugs out most of us, or not, because we already know eh?

It´s also interesting to see so much biblical discussions here. Since my bibles have been in Swedish I can´t follow each reference exactly, but in the Bible you can find the information that satan has been imprisoned here at earth, one of the things that lead to Gnosticism. Maybe stan wasn´t the devil but god and god was really the devil since mankind was evil and oall that? Well, questions that can never be answered. The bible has alot of contradictions and the old and the new testament both gives and takes apart new and old rules and saying. So if you really like the biblicle debate, choose the same bible the same language! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif (OK, teasing you all here, but the bible is written by man, and man is doomed to make eroors right?)

What is more important in this debate for me, is to see if there instead of points of views and different truths that need to be compared, can be some sort of a way to understand people with different views and aspects. And as such I have realized alot and found out that many share some of my thoughts and it would be a shame not to mention that we still, believers, philosophers or atheists still agree on alot of views and points..

OKI, well I might have added something useful or something complete gobbeldigook here, but I leave it for each and one of you to decide. Personally I will get myself a cup of tea and try to get rid of the last traces of flue here! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif


P.S Yorick, I hope you don´t mind if I refered to you above in my ramblings. I didn´t quote you or anything but following your thoughts and your perspectives of your belief I think you are about the first Christian person that I would like to meet!, Yes you points of views are actually abit aside from many that calls themself followers of Chritianity!. And you should take that as a compliment, or I should meet more Christians! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif )

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Be vevvy qwiet..I´m hunting wabbits...
Wolfgirs lair
once-upon-a-paper

And here's me thinking you knew the bible, lol! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif What version do you read, for pete's sake?

I DO NOT take scripture out of context either. I quote what it says, and frequently point out the context as you well know!! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no.../angryfire.gif Did you even bother reading the scriptures in Genesis I cited? All in context, too! And furthermore, if you read the other scriptures I cited you will realise that Paradise conditions does not just mean pretty places on the earth, but the WHOLE EARTH! No nasty grotty city slums ANYWHERE! EVERYBODY HAPPY. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif And if your bible doesn't say so, Yorick, then you have a very strange version indeed.
I thought you actually BELIEVED the bible? Are you now telling me you do not? http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/ponder.gif

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