Yes seriously I do... I think the way some cars are designed is the main reason that the evolution theory is still just a theory...

Why Jorath? I hear you ask...

And I will tell you...

I am so incredibly lucky to work in a gasstaion... acctually it's a sort of a service station, I pump gas, check the oil, water coolant break fluid and even change your lightbulbs should you need it... and there in lies my deep hate for cars... WHY IN THE SEVEN HELLS DO CAR DESIGNER HAVE TO PUT THE BATTERY RIGHT NEXT TO THE FREAKIN HEADLIGHTS!!! on some cars it doesn't matter because the designer did have the IQ of a cucumber and had some space between so you can slide your hand between and change the light bulb, but on other cars, mostly american (FORD) and japanese (older Toyotas) cars I have come to find out that they left a 2 cm wide space between, so to change the lightbulb you either have to screw the headlight or remove the battery.
Today I had one such cars and noticed that to remove the headlight I'd basicly have to remove the bumper too... and probably the doors and the roof too... so I decided to remove the battery... ungh, of course after I removed the first screw, I placd it on the ground next to the lightbulb I was going to put in, I look up for about 2 minutes and try to figure out how to reomowe the poleholders (no idea what they are called) from the battery and then look back down and the screw was gone, just disapeared... no where to be seen, and ofcourse it was needed to fasten the battery. So I actually remove the battery,and by now it had taken about 6 minutes, and then it takes 6 seconds (or so) to change the bulb... and then another 8 minutes to put the battery back in... I'm not sure I should tell you what I did regarding the lost screw... it's one of those things that will go on my "Not proud of that" - list and Ill most likely burn for some time in hell for it... but desperate times call for desperate measures, I noticed there was sort of a plate next to the radiator it had 3 screws on top and two other that kept it in place that looked just like the screw I lost, I figured 5 screws were plenty so I removed one and used it on the battery... So finally when it was over, had taken about 15 minutes, he woman tried it and it worked... now I'm sure after this much trouble someone would be thankful for the assistance, but no, after the woman paid for the bulb ( the installation is free) she looked at me with this " God what a idiot" look and drove away. I didn't really mind because I was still wondering what god awful amoebaen designed the god damn car... it ust baffles me that someone would make a part of the car that regularly needs changing almost inaccessable... :eek:

So like I said, I hate cars... [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 07-11-2005, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: Jorath Calar ]

They really squeeze things under the hoods of cars these days! My husband nearly stood on his head in the trunk of my last car to change a signal bulb. Not exactly easy to get at!

[ 07-11-2005, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Cloudbringer ]

You know the engineers who design cars are not dumb folks, which makes me think they do things on purpose to make it tough to work on your car yourself. Last saturday I changed all four struts in my wife's subaru outback, an for some stupid reason they had the brake lines routed THROUGH a bracket on the strut, so an already PITA job became just a bit more of a PITA as I had to pull the brake lines to change the struts, then I had to bleed the whole system afterwards.

Wasted the better part of the day farting around with the damn car.

Remember that most companies do not design cars these days.... they design systems instead. One group designs the engine, another the electrical system, a third the braking system, a fourth the suspension, and so on. Then, in a burst of magic, all the systems simply work together.

Reminds me of my old 1980 Datsun 310 (Cherry, in other parts of the world). Nice little motor with one minor issue: a little freakin' hose in the cooling system that was three inches long, and was located under the carburetor. Life was good until it sprung a leak, which led me to a new head gasket. And to replacing the hose, which was accessible from *just* the right angle underneath the carburetor.

Not including any tools needed, though... they were more challenging.

Unfortunately, the head went bad, and I needed to replace the motor. I bought a used one.

When the motor is out of the car, that little hose is really easy to get to. Foolish me didn't think about replacing it at this opportune time... it would have cost me ten minutes and three dollars.

Two weeks later, *that* hose blew a leak. New hose, new head gasket, new engine... Let's just say I got smarter after that. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I used to be a pacifist till I learned to drive"

Jorath mate, it’s about time you started charging an installation fee, most people would gladly pay a few bucks (sea shells, Zambian goat beads or whatever you use [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) for someone to fit them.

On a similar theme my hate with motorbikes these days is that they no longer come with a centre stand. How the frick do you adjust and lube a chain or mess with the back wheel??? sure it can be done but it always used to be so easy!

And don't even get me started on Boeings or old Pratt and Whitney engines gggggrrrrrrr

:D

<font color="cyan">I can't see where you are coming from to be honest.

The parts are there for a reason.

And, to remove a headlight bulb, it takes seconds. The battery is usually held on by either 1 or 2 phillips screws, screwed through a holding plate and onto the battery tray. How long does it take to undo 2 screws? And thats even if its a tight squeeze. You do not need to disconect the battery, just unscrew it from the battery tray, then it will slide/lift out to a certain extent. It's all I do.

I'm into performance cars, and I used to be a mechanic. You should see some of the engines we have worked on/built. We tend to put big powerful lumps into small engine bays,where there is no space. Relocation often occurs, with the battery, water header tank, windscreen wiper water etc all being moved to the boot.

But, under a normal car bonnet, things are there.

And, most car engines are very easy to work on, even when doing the hardest of jobs. I can't beleive you complain about changing a lightbulb... [img]graemlins/lol.gif[/img]

The only time engine work gets tricky, is on high-powered jap motors. But even then changing a headlight bulb is very easy.</font>

I still work on cars, ocassionally, and yes, some are quite easy to work on, my '83 Monte Carlo was kinda fun to do a tune up on though, glad I was working at a shop while I owned that one. I had to run it up on the lift, and pull the plugs through the wheel well, couldn't hardly get to em any other way.
The one thing that got to me, on most of the newer GM applications, is the location of the ignition module, on the backside, bottom of the engine. You'd never be able to do that at home, w/out pulling the engine, unless you own ramps, and a few long extensions.
The reason for stuff like this? So that you have to take the car to the shop to get it fixed. It's not an accident, they do it on purpose.

YES.

See all these "certified used vehicle" programs out there to maintain trade-in value. Well, for every one of those programs, people are coming into the dealership in droves. Every 3 months it costs either $60 (routine oil change, check) or $250+ ("scheduled maintenance" like transmission flushes, tire rotations, anal probes, etc.) just to service the thing.

And, you thought they made money on cars. It's a SERVICE economy my friend, and everyone is jumping on board.

I used to have that job! Hated it ...

... but I'm pretty sure we weren't allowed to touch things like break fluid or lightbulbs. That was probably some other union's private territory ...

Though you did leave out wiping the windshield -- hated that job the most! (If you've never done it, people will never be happy with the job ("Oh, young man, can you just get that spot there! Yes, no, yes there! Almost!")).

Hmpf. My last vehicle had 6 industrial grade batteries, wired together for a 24VDC system. It used 1/2" studs and 9/16"od nuts to bolt them in place. 15 minutes? Yeap, to remove half the hold downs, maybe.

Don't think about doing an oil change.

Heh, did you read my post? I never said changing the lightbulb itself was any trouble, I said it had taken seconds and it usually does, it was the procedure I had to go through to change it, remove the battery... and it was a fairly old car and the screw on the poles were stuck (and covered in acid residue) and then I lost one of them, that is why it took so long... plus I'm not a mechanic, even though I work there, before I got the job I knew next to nothing about cars... [img]smile.gif[/img]

<font color="cyan">I did read your post, but I meant even on the trickiest of cars, removing things to get to the headlight is very short etc.

And I disagree to a point about HAVING to take your car in, but I suppose thats because I know what I'm doing. With a decent set of tools, everything can be done.

I very rarely take my car in, and when I do, its because I don't have time to do it. Not because I cant.

The only things I don't do, is internal machining and respraying. Just because I don't have the equipment!

However, there are a few cars out there, that are tricky to do certain bits on.</font>

Not correct, some vehicles are right proper bastards. Some vehicles, particularly high performance Japanese cars leave so little cabling that simply unbolting the battery clamp and moving said battery a few inches is practically impossible. Yes, I work on high performance Japanese cars, Evolutions, FTO's, GTO's, Imprezas and Skylines, the kind of stuff you'll see in Gran Turismo.

Moving the battery a few inches without disconnection, as Lav' says, is always the best policy but often not possible.

In your position Jorath, you have a couple of options.

Firstly...In your current employment you shouldn't remove stuff like batteries or body trims (ie grilles) to change bulbs. If the shit hits the fan, you'll be the bloke the punter is screaming at, after he's stopped it'll be your boss screaming at you, all because you showed initiative and tried to help. Often radio codes will be lost and subsequently the customer will not know the code to re-program it, it's then down to the customer or you to get in touch with the dealer/manafacturer (at a cost) to retrieve the code. It can be complicated and incredibly irritating for all concerned, it will often not be accomplished in the same day. In extreme cases, suspension, seating, SRS and alarm systems can be compromised....then this bulb has cost you a fortune.

Secondly...If the jobs is not immediately obvious (ie changing a bulb without removing the battery or other bodywork) then ask the customer for the handbook. You'll be amazed how often the handbook will come up trumps for things like changing bulbs. Often there will be a screw or a clip or even a method of removal that isn't immediately obvious. There's no shame in asking for the handbook, I promise you, mechanics worldwide have consulted them.

Thirdly...Tell the boss. This isn't the thirty second job you thought it was going to be. Tell him you may have to remove this or that, show him exactly what you mean to do if you have to. Ask him if he wants you to go ahead and that you can take no responsibility if it all goes tits up. There's nothing worse than having a courtesy job (love job) going belly up and costing the company money...you'll be the bloke in the firing line when it does.

Lastly...Tell the customer the same as the above. You're very willing and happy to help...but..."You have a very beautiful and complicated car, these little jobs are not as simple as they may seem". Of course, with the customers consent you can then proceed at his/her liability...after they have witnessed your honesty and aptitude for overcoming the particular problem, a tip may be forthcoming.

Charlie's post is VERY good advice from someone who knows cars, Jorath! I think it's a very good idea to make sure the boss and the customer know what type of 'simple' thing they've asked you to do and how 'unsimple' it may really be!

Remember: "if it has tits or wheels, it's going to give you trouble!"

You had a car/truck carrying 6 X 4 volt industrial batteries? Well I've never ever come across that before in 26 years. I am factory trained and fully qualified in both light vehicle and heavy commercial vehicles, this is a first for me. (It may obviously be a USA thing). Surely 2 X 12 volt batteries connected in series was the original configuration. What vehicle was it? I'm amazed and don't see the sense in it.... sounds bloody messy. Must be difficult finding a 4V battery for it too surely?

Hey, not saying I disbelieve you....just trying to get my head around the pro's and con's of it....I mean why?

Felix's last vehicle was probably military issue... [img]smile.gif[/img]

OK, so military. But why use an obscure battery size? 12V is the standard worldwide pretty much, including the heaviest of vehicles.

So we're in town and a battery goes down....we now have to dump the dead battery and two more good (2 X 4Volt) batteries and wire and secure a single (highly available) 12V battery in the place of the duff battery and the other two we've had to remove....just don't make sense, military or otherwise.

Only Felix can answer that... but how long have 12V batteries been the standard?

Sometimes I love being obfuscatory... and other times, I just like to muddy the waters [img]smile.gif[/img]

No clue... I have however worked on and restored vehicles that pre date the war, peculiarly with 12V batteries, or in the case of some beetles 6V batteries.

So what the ■■■■ are you actually saying?

Good advices Charlie, thanks, I knew the car was fairly old so I did ask and tell the cuustomer I had to remove the battery, and she said she knew it was okey because it had been done before. So I did proceed with her consent.

On another note, it's not customary to give tips here, however I did get a tip today, my first ever tip! :D ... from a american tourist, they are usually very nice, but this one must have been a grandchild of Mother theresa... [img]smile.gif[/img] very polite and chatted while I was pumping asking about my town and the weather, then handed me a 500kr.- bill which is about 5$... told me it was for the service...
I ate well at lunch... :D

That's great mate!
Customer service is everything. If you give a good service, better than the bloke down the road or those close by, people will remember you. Even if tipping is not customary you'll find that folk will often try to keep you sweet with a tip for the service you've provided.

Remember what a tip or tips are for...it means this -

T To
I Insure
P Proper
S Service

[ 07-14-2005, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: Charlie ]

No clue... I have however worked on and restored vehicles that pre date the war, peculiarly with 12V batteries, or in the case of some beetles 6V batteries.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bungleau: Sometimes I love being obfuscatory... and other times, I just like to muddy the waters [img]smile.gif[/img]

So what the **** are you actually saying? </font>[/QUOTE]I'm saying that sometimes I pipe up on the opposite side of my own perspective just to see if the other side could win after all. I happen to agree with you -- design should include how easy it will be to get replacement parts, and having proprietary batteries makes little sense. However, they may be there for a reason... perhaps they need to fit in multiple small locations instead of one big one. I don't know... but I could see a designer doing that. I could also see them getting thumped aside the head from someone more experienced, asking why they didn't just shuffle everything else around to make room for a standard battery.

With Felix having recently left the military, it could be he was driving something designed by one of those other folks... but I'll confess that I don't have enough background to hazard a guess as to what. And also not knowing the evolution of standards in the auto industry (or perhaps knowing too much history), it's conceivable that his vehicle might have been built when such a design was thought to be a good idea.

As for the muddy obfuscatory thing... they're the same thing, from a slightly different point of view.

Sheesh, do I need a better hobby or what? :D

Hey, it's all good.
I've played Devils advocate more than once. A 4V battery in the motor vehicle trade is totally unknown to me, this is where my interest lay. Multiple small locations of small batteries may be a plausible design idea, but then the wiring, connections and possibility of failure increase significantly. Even a standard 12V battery is actually a set of 6 X 2V batteries connected in series in a manageable mass with just two poles instead of twelve ....makes sense no? Saves a ton of space and wiring too.

I'm just trying to educate myself on something I've never before come across regarding a motorised vehicle.

You had a car/truck carrying 6 X 4 volt industrial batteries? Well I've never ever come across that before in 26 years. I am factory trained and fully qualified in both light vehicle and heavy commercial vehicles, this is a first for me. (It may obviously be a USA thing). Surely 2 X 12 volt batteries connected in series was the original configuration. What vehicle was it? I'm amazed and don't see the sense in it.... sounds bloody messy. Must be difficult finding a 4V battery for it too surely?

Hey, not saying I disbelieve you....just trying to get my head around the pro's and con's of it....I mean why? </font>[/QUOTE]Nope.
You fell for it. As my post stated, vehicle.
My last vehicle was an M1A1 Abrams.

You think 6x12 VDC batteries produce energy? Haw, you have to witness what a 1500 GE turbine can do to said battery set-up. Actually that set-up is weak. We have an APU (Aux Power Unit) to supplement said battery for night watch, or fuel conservation operations. Vehicle specific, some will start as low as 18VDC, and some grumpy ones want at least 22VDC.

You kinda lost me.

6X 12V in series will give a 72V system. You mentioned 6 batteries giving 24V....IE 6X 4 Volts. I fail to see the sense in that application be it a car, a truck, a tank or a jumbo jet. It's the 4 Volt battery that really intrigues me, why go that far off the beaten track, especially in a military vehicle. A 12V battery is commonplace and can be found virtually anywhere...Just what you need to keep your tank going in a tricky situation. A 4V battery is specialised and rare.

Ugh, abandon ship boys, we can't start her, we're all of 4 volts short and there's no 4 volters to be found. Dang! this 12 volter's waaay too big! (I jest obviously [img]smile.gif[/img] )

Pardon the pun but maybe we've got crossed wires.

Do some research on your Challenger MBT.

ALL, US military tactical vehicles are 24VDC. From a simple forklift through Hummers (Jeep on steroids), IFVs to MBTs. One standard, one voltage.
A Hummer has 2x12 VDC batteries. Larger trucks, like the HEMMET or 10T have 4, IFVs and Artillery guns have 4 as well, MBTs and tank recovery vehicles all have 6.
Basic elec says two 12VDC batteries wired in unison make 24VDC. Same theory, either 2x2s, or 3x3s, still make 24VDC. Difference being CCAs, even a wimpy hummer can slave off a tank with low but good batteries, so no need to abandon ship, either just fire up the APU, or call the 1st shirt over to slave you off.

It appears that the Challenegr dozer kit needs 28VDC, to operate it's electrical motor. Pretty much identical to our mieplough. http://www.pearson-eng.com/dozerudk1.html

<font color="cyan">If you read my first post, I said that Jap motors are the only tricky ones.

And I know what you mean, I've done a lot of work on Skylines, Supras, MR2 Turbos, Evos, FTO's and Imprezas.

Only one I've not played with yet that I want too is the 350Z. Had a drive, but nothing has broken on one yet. [img]graemlins/lol.gif[/img] </font>