![]() |
I transfered this question from the Books, Movies forum as per a good suggestion by Cerek.
It's interesting to see so many Christians (or believers to some extent) here. I have to admit I usually spend my time on the Wizardry 8 board. What do y'all feel about Fantasy RPG's and DnD and the like. I do get negative comments at times for playing these games. People saying it's evil or satanic etc. What do y'all think about that? Cerek's response: You're last comments really deserve a thread of their own (perhaps in General Discussion forum). I've never played Wizadry 8, but I did play AD&D in college. My mom wasn't happy about it, but I personally see nothing inherently wrong with the game itself. Most of the criticism leveled at AD&D by Christians is based on a large dose of misinformation. I agree that there are certain elements of the game that go against Christian theology. If nothing else, the older versions contained some basic occultic language and/or references that could cause a young gamer to become curious and want to explore the occult a bit more. That has been the most valid argument (from a Christian POV) against the game that I have found. Of course, the game itself can be quite addictive. I don't even want to think about how many hours I used to spend each week playing the game and/or working on characters. I did let it get to the point where it interfered with my prayer time and church attendance - so that is another aspect that a Christian should be cautious of. Then again, that would apply to ANY pastime or hobby that they let become more important than their worship life. I personally felt I had to step back from AD&D because I was spending too much time on it, but I have many good Christian friends that have played the game and have NO moral qualms about it at all. As with anything else, it just depends on whether it remains a healthy pastime or becomes a somewhat unhealthy addiction. |
My neighbours had to give up Everquest and Pokemon because it was really affecting their lives in a negative way.
I play play DnD on most Sunday afternoons now. I also play different fantasy Srategy and RPG games on the PC. I do have limits though. If I can't play DnD with a party of good characters doing good things, I won't play. The same is true for the PC games. This same neighbour and I also play Axis and Allies. I don't really see how that's ok and the other isn't. People "really" died in that! |
I love my D&D and Fantasy games, the only comments I get are "GIMP" or "NERD" or something along those lines.
Although I have never played physical D&D games, but I would like to. |
Oh yes, I think I just freaked out my bible study leader when I told him I played AD&D, when he asked me what I did this weekend. Oh, that, and learning how to efficiently kill people. :D
|
I say do everything in moderation. ;)
of course not including vices or anything. i really get annoyed at conservative chrisitian schools i know (back in the philippines) saying that pokemon, D&D are devils work. I get really angry when people say that brainwashing stupid beliefs. :mad: its the same as arcades if you ask me. like you said.. its a pasttime, and a hobby. its not like we are woshiping it like a cult or anything. |
This is one of the reasons why I don't go to church, because if someone in it found out that I play D&D, that would just bring an entire mess of trouble with it.
What a lot of devote christians don't really understand is that D&D is just like any other game, you get addicted and it's an enjoyable pasttime. I've been playing it for seven years and I still don't worship other gods or any of that nonsense. Variol, as to D&D games affecting people's lives in a negative way, being the type of game it is doesn't have to do with anything. Anyone can get an addiction to video games of any type and stay in their room for quite a long time. The worse I've ever been is playing for two days straight, sleeping, then get back up to play again. Hark, thats just the thing, most people assume that if you play D&D, because it has other gods in it, then they think that you do worship them. Sad really. |
Quote:
....... Oh you're serious.... Errmmm.... |
Quote:
|
Just a note here, keep this topic OFF the general discussion of religion or religious beliefs of a group or groups, please. That's a taboo topic on Ironworks at the moment and will get the thread closed.
To answer the general theme: I am a churchgoing Christian and I play several D&D style crpg's. As does my parish priest. Neither of us thinks of it as anything more than a GAME. |
Quote:
....... Oh you're serious.... Errmmm.... </font>[/QUOTE]its actually called ever"crack" edit: here is an interesting link http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in510302.shtml http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Bunker/9915/ [ 10-27-2004, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: Harkoliar ] |
I was like that with NWN online for a while. My life just dissapeared for days on end..
But I'm all better now... But I think Ironworks has the same effect on people.. Maybe it should be called the 'Crackworks'.... Or maybe not... |
*shrugs* I'm a conservative Christian and have been playing for thirty years or more. I think being a Paladin is the perfect trope for being a Christian warrior. Some people are just ignorant, is all.
|
I was addicted to AD&D and NWN until almost a year ago when I got Final Fantasy XI. My average playtime of FFXI per day runs from 15 - 21 hours without sleep. The reason for this is because I like to party with the Japanese players at their peak hours, then the Europeans with their peak hours, and then the Americans at their peak hours. Sure it sounds like obsession. But if it's obsession then how did I take Advanced networking, Statistics II, Advanced C++ Programming, Data Communications, Earth and space science, Earth and space science lab, and Advanced Physiology over a 10 week period and make straight As?
I should point out that FFXI is highly inspired by AD&D (The first 20 levels your stats are almost exactly the same depending on what class/race you play and the races, despite having differint names, are blatant ripoffs of D&D races) The reason dedicating my time to FFXI doesn't bother my religeous beliefs is because the world of Vana'diel is a monotheistic society that worshops God. There are even small groups of players on my server who actually attend an online churches on sundays in the churches of Sand'Oria and Jeuno. They elegedly have an ordained minister who plays the game give a sermon around 7:00 Eastern every sunday. Hehe! They also have virtual weddings, i doubt they'd be valid in any state or country [img]tongue.gif[/img] but the point is those take place in churches too. Players don't just blatantly "fool around" like some players in Everquest do [img]tongue.gif[/img] They develop warm relationships and get to sit on hillsides together and watch the sunset and that sorta thing before aranging a huge celebration with all their friends and fireworks and music and such. Now I'd love to hang around and further this discussion but Haloween is on in FFXI and I must make money by selling candy to Trick-or-treaters. Muwhahahah! |
When my now exgirlfriend discovered that I played D&D, among several other rpgs (one even MORE occult based...but it sucked) she was kind of freaked out...she told me that it was because it was intimidating, but never would ellaborate...I'm still not sure, but I know that she claimed to be devout in her religion...
I would also never tell my grandparents about playing D&D...but then again, I don't plan on telling them that I'm a deist or that I'm dating a Jewish girl any time soon... ;) Really, what it boils down to is "how absorbed do people become in the things that they do?" Most of the roleplayers I've met have been casual, and I'm pretty sure that that is the majority of them...unfortunately, those crazies who dress up as vampires and wander around quoting their respective games in the middle of airports DO exist, and give the rest of us kind of a bad rap... After all, it IS man's typical reaction to generalize groups by the most easily seen examples...and those people certainly are that... |
My take on it... like anything else, it can be taken to extreme. Those who take it to extreme cause problems for the rest of us.
Does it address topics that some people would rather not discuss? Absolutely. If you've got good, you've got to have evil as well. Do some people play evil? You betcha. But that doesn't make them evil any more than playing Madden NFL 2004 would make them professional football players. I think there are a number of conservative religious folks who strongly fear letting their children learn and make their own decisions. What if one of them tried AD&D and became an atheist? The world would shatter, I'm sure. But what if that child grew up and never was able to formulate their own opinion or make their own decisions? Far, far worse, I believe. As a parent, I know that I'm not always going to like what my kids do as they grow up. My father always said that every generation's job is to come up with music, hair, and clothes that irritate their parents. So far, so good [img]smile.gif[/img] If I tell them they can't, they'll stick with it even more. If I let them explore, and be willing to share my opinions (and they're no more than that), and let them make up their own minds, even if I think it's wrong, they will grow far more and be far more independent. You see, I believe that once my kids were born, the clock started ticking on when they leave. My job is to make sure that when they do, they're ready for the outside world. It is *NOT* to keep them sheltered here until I think they're ready... which would probably be around the age of 40 :D Hmmm... sideways step from D&D, but I think they stem from the same thing -- unwillingness to let your children explore and learn from their explorations. The important thing is to explore with them, so you have a basis for discussion with them. |
I would say there's potentialyy alot that goes against Christian belief in DnD, but if it's bad for a Christian to play would probably depend on if you think it's real(Devils' work) or just fantasy.
|
I played D&D from grammar school through high school with my Pastor's son. No big deal.
If you think it's real and start worshiping the gods/demons in your D&D world, it's not the church you need, it's a shrink. |
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp
[img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/evillaughter2.gif[/img] |
ROTFLMFAO!!! Nice link, Arledrian! :D
Oh, and DK, yes, it is an obsession, lol. Because you were able to get through all your classes doesn't mean you're not obsessed. Though I'm guessing you dont play 15-21 hours a day, everyday. But, anyways, there's this scary thing outside, anyways. Stupid sun! [img]graemlins/1pissed.gif[/img] J/k, man! ;) [img]smile.gif[/img] |
ROFL, Arledrian!! I can't believe that kid did that just because her character died!! xD
That has to be the funniest propaganda ever. Great find! :D |
Great link, Arledrian;
I really appreciate all the input! I think the "when in doubt, don't" addige may come into play here. There are certain things I won't play. Just like certain music I won't listen to. So, my Warrior Priest (2nd ed) will continue to wander the land trying to make the fantasy world a better place. I also hope that I have a positive affect on the other players who are not Church go'ers. |
Arledrian, that was a... interesting read. It has certainly opened my eyes to the truth behind DnD [img]tongue.gif[/img]
|
That's a 'great' Chick comic; they're all pretty similar. If you're not of the fundamentalist Christian persuasion, you'll likely find one or more targetted at you if you look around -Catholics, Muslims, Jews, homosexuals, pro-choicers, people who listen to rock music, scientists, and so many others. The 'chick tracts' are almost entertaining in their extremism, except that they're so hateful. Bet'cha can't read just one though :D
Don't say I didn't warn ya though lol: http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlist.asp I don't think this would even be an issue without a certain amount of ridiculous publicity in the early-mid 1980s very much like that Chick comic. Pen and paper RPGs encourage imagination, creativity, and problem-solving. It can be developed into something else according to the person running the game, but I really think everyone's more interested in having fun by telling a story and overcoming challenges than dabbling in the occult. http://www.religioustolerance.org/d_a_d3.htm (In case you're concerned that this kind of role-playing is anything but harmless, this link academically answers allegations of the occult, suicide rates, and more relating to role-playing games) EDIT: Update, this one cracks me up lol http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0099/0099_01.asp [ 10-27-2004, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: Lucern ] |
Ooh, I really like the party-girl one! :D What's sad, though, is that I think much of what is said in these, (especially in reference to Catholics), is believed in my home town area. Oh well, its only one more reason being a hermit would be nice. Not having to deal with other's stupidity.
|
Let's look at DnD from a different POV!
I am a Christian, but was not until a year ago! And boy, interesting story! DnD got me started thinking about religion and ethics. The good/evil axis really inspired me philosofically, and I started reading ForgottenRealms books, which are laden with moral questions and struggle. Then I read the Cleric Quintet! By that time I had already become a Christian but had no real idea what i should be doing. But the CQ showed me a man SO devout in his beliefs that nothing could hurt him and he could trample all that stood before him. And then i realised, I can do this as well! I háve the access to that kind of mental stability, and it has led me to grow beyond other Christians close to me who have been a Christian for many more years. They have often expressed my close connection to the Holy Spirit, I even heard that from a priest. With this story I want to show that DnD can also be a good influence. It's all in the mind of the person doing it. If you are open to the devil's influence, you will be influenced. If you recognize and battle his work every way, you should not be afraid of playing games that possibly might interest you in the occult. Then, on the other side, there is the point that the arcane magic in DnD is as far from this world's occultism as can be. You cannot learn anything from DnD and how mages cast spells is totally different from modern witches. That there often is a pantheon can in most worlds be explained by the fact that in those worlds the gods are not really gods, rather powerful entities... |
Wow, great story, JrKASperov!
BTW, just to make something perfectly clear: most Christians do not agree with Jack Chick. |
Indeed Krunchyfrogg, he makes it quite hard for many people to agree with his tracts. His comics are meant to be somewhat subversively spread around AFAIK, so that someone finds it and connects (or connects it with the nearest trash-bin).
|
Quote:
|
ditto [img]smile.gif[/img]
|
<font color=plum>I began attending my current home church several years ago on a Wednesday night. The very first night I attended service, one of the deacon's wives got up and talked about the "evils of Dungeons and Dragons". I was very active in PnP at the time (gamed every Saturday night and sometimes on Friday), so I went up to her after the service and basically said "That was an interesting talk. Tell me how much you actually know firsthand about Dungeons and Dragons." The answer was "Not much". She sidestepped that issue, though, by claiming her husband was the one that was knowledgeable about the dangers of Dungeons and Dragons. He wasn't. He didn't have any firsthand knowledge or experience...just based his opinion on info distributed by Christian groups.
Now, there is nothing wrong with these groups being concerned about the game and distributing information...except that even these groups have very little real knowledge of the game. Instead, they seem to rely on the types of "urban legends" mentioned in the links provided by <font color=red>Lucern</font>. I did finally manage to have several good discussions about AD&D with a high school classmate of mine that was also a deacon of the church. He provided me with a more "neutral" tract presenting church arguments against AD&D. I read the material and discussed it with him at length. These are the main arguments I've seen leveled against AD&D and my response to them. <font color=lime>1) AD&D teaches kids to worship false gods.</font> This argument is based on the fact that the AD&D game encompassed dieties from several different cultural pantheons. Norse, Roman, Chinese, Aztec and even Native American pantheons were represented with details listed for each diety in every pantheon. The one "glaring omission" from this group was the inclusion of God and Jesus from Christianity. While it is true that players create an imaginary character and usually pick a diety for that character to worship, I never met a single player that actually believed in the same diety there character supposedly worshipped. So the accusation that it taught children to worship false gods was completely false. <font color=lime>2) AD&D teaches kids that God and Jesus are "false gods" also.</font> This argument was a circular response made against the defense offered for argument#1. Some gaming groups - in response to the accusation they were worshipping "false gods" said "We don't actually worship these gods because we don't believe they are actually real. However, if it bothers you that bad, we will include Christianity as an optional religion for our players to choose from." The response was "You think these gods are false. By including Christianity, you are saying you also believe Christianity is false." In other words, they tried to have it both ways. They complained that players actually believed the "false gods" were real but then said that including God and Jesus meant the gamers were saying the Christian God wasn't real. Proof positive that there just wasn't any way to please some of the critics. <font color=lime>3) AD&D promotes devil worship.</font> This argument was based on the fact that there are spells in the game that can be used to summon demons to help your character. The argument was that this taught kids to "call on Satan and/or demons" to help solve their problems. The fact that players created characters that sometimes cast spells did NOT mean that the players themselves actually believed THEY could also learn to cast spells and summon demons in real life to help them. Still, tThe game designers tried to accomodate this argument. In the 2nd and 3rd editions of AD&D, the demons and daemons described in the original Monster Manuals were noticeably absent. <font color=lime>4) AD&D teaches kids to cast spells.</font> Same response as above. Just because there are certain character classes in the game that are considered spellcasters does NOT mean that the players themselves are actually going to want to learn to cast spells in real life. <font color=lime>5) At the very least, AD&D introduces kids to the basic terminology of the occult. This could lead to a curiousity and desire to learn more about occultic practices.</font> This was the one bona-fide argument I found against AD&D. The original Dungeon Masters Guide DID give a rather comprehensive list of several occultic terms...some of which I had never even encountered before. Pentagrams and thaumaturgic circles were clearly diagramed in the DMG and a lot of the basic terminology of the occult was interjected into several different aspects of the game. At least this argument recognized that AD&D itself was not necessarily "occultic" - but that it did include the terminology and practices that could encourage gamers to explore these aspects more deeply. An honost assessment of the game cannot deny this argument.</font> |
God, Jesus and Satan were probably left out of the DnD pantheon for a good reason.
|
Good and thoughtful post Cerek. I'm adding a couple that I've heard and read frequently, addressed in yellow below.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Then there's always the game Vampire (and all of its offshoots), that by nature do exactly as Cerek says. I think there are some key cultural differences in those who talk about the evils of RPGs and those who think they're harmless: the first depends on whether you believe the occult reflects reality in any sense. From those that level charges that I've read, there is an underlying assumption that spirits, witchcraft, and demons are real. The other is whether you believe that RPGs provide inherently immoral contexts and experiences, and whether or not players are in fact changed by that in their daily lives. This is possible, but see below for why I don't believe it (aside from personal experience). <FONT COLOR="Yellow"> People who play AD&D are more likely to commit crimes than others of their age. People who play AD&D are also more likely to commit suicide. </FONT> Though scary allegations, both of them are very much false. See the link from my other post in this thread (to religious tolerance.org). RPGers are actually less likely than their peers to do either one of these. |
Dispite being christian, I prefer "evil" or undead things in my gaming world anyway... makes me feel better about the dirt job I have to do.. rid the world of evil! woo hoo!
Our DM always creates his own gaming world, never the premade ones. And I'll tell you, he does an amazing job! There are times when I'm actually scared playing the game; which is what you want, right? |
Well, I don't know about anyone else but for me the AD&D characterisation of 'Ilmater the suffering God' bears very close resemblance to the crucified Christ. So I wouldn't say the Judeo-Christian theogany has been overlooked in the AD&D pantheon.
|
Quote:
D&D is, was, and alsways should be an escape, a fun thing to do. It should not incorporate real-world things that can make one uncomfortable, something the FRCS has done here (for me anyway). BTW, the I happen to agree with the poster on the first page who said that he knew someone who had to give up Pokemon and Everquest b/c it was negatively affecting their lives. While it's never happened to me, it's so wrong to laugh at that person. Anything taken to extreme can turn into a bad thing, and if you're neglecting some things in your life that need to be done, and playing a video game instead, it is a problem that needs to be addressed. |
Well, caring for the poor and downtrodden is a major aspect of most world religions, so it's only natural that the DnD universe (in this case FR) would have a deity for this.
[ 10-29-2004, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: Stratos ] |
BTW, the I happen to agree with the poster on the first page who said that he knew someone who had to give up Pokemon and Everquest b/c it was negatively affecting their lives. While it's never happened to me, it's so wrong to laugh at that person.
Yeah, that was me. And when they told me that, it's exactly what I did, laugh. But when they explained it to me, I understood. Another friend of mine was failing grade 10 badly and actually quit because of Everquest! That's just scary. I think I have to put some fault on the parents as well though. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
[Cheap comments from the first few panels of Dark Dungeons]
Problem 1) What are the odds that the game, especially in its early days, is going to have 4 gals to three guys? As I've heard joked before, it wouldn't have been considered such a nerdy game if that was the case! 2) 10 sodas for 7 people? Oh wait, he got that part right lol. 3) Note that they point out 'the thief'. The idea of allowing someone to play one is often used to smear DnD. 4) They made her leave? lol You know...once you die in DnD, you get to make a new character generally. Nobody makes you leave, especially if they haven't tried to resurrect you yet. 5) Neither do you get to declare that you blinded the monster with your light spell. The DM tells you if you succeeded. 6) And the wizard becomes the cleric in panel 3. Yes, I know it's embellished for effect, and that Chick never rolled up a character. Still... :D |
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:11 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
©2024 Ironworks Gaming & ©2024 The Great Escape Studios TM - All Rights Reserved