I found this to be a rather interesting article. Thought it might be worth sharing [img]smile.gif[/img]

In Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Croatia, Cyprus, Latvia, Italy, Israel, Germany and Austria, it is illegal for a parent, teacher, or anyone else to spank a child. In some states and provinces, it is only illegal for a teacher to spank. In all areas of North America, physical punishment by a parent, as long as it is not severe, is still seen by many as necessary discipline, and condoned, or even encouraged.
For the past several years, many psychiatrists, sociological researchers, and parents have recommended that we seriously consider banning the physical punishment of children. The most important reason, according to Dr. Peter Newell, coordinator of the organization End Punishment of Children (EPOCH), is that "all people have the right to protection of their physical integrity, and children are people too."

1. Hitting children teaches them to become hitters themselves. Extensive research data is now available to support a direct correlation between corporal punishment in childhood and aggressive or violent behavior in the teenage and adult years. Virtually all of the most dangerous criminals were regularly threatened and punished in childhood. It is nature's plan that children learn attitudes and behaviors through observation and imitation of their parents' actions, for good or ill. Thus it is the responsibility of parents to set an example of empathy and wisdom.

2. In many cases of so-called "bad behavior", the child is simply responding in the only way he can, given his age and experience, to neglect of basic needs. Among these needs are: proper sleep and nutrition, treatment of hidden allergy, fresh air, exercise, and sufficient freedom to explore the world around him. But his greatest need is for his parents' undivided attention. In these busy times, few children receive sufficient time and attention from their parents, who are often too distracted by their own problems and worries to treat their children with patience and empathy. It is surely wrong and unfair to punish a child for responding in a natural way to having important needs neglected. For this reason, punishment is not only ineffective in the long run, it is also clearly unjust.

3. Punishment distracts the child from learning how to resolve conflict in an effective and humane way. As the educator John Holt wrote, "When we make a child afraid, we stop learning dead in its tracks." A punished child becomes preoccupied with feelings of anger and fantasies of revenge, and is thus deprived of the opportunity to learn more effective methods of solving the problem at hand. Thus, a punished child learns little about how to handle or prevent similar situations in the future.

4. “Spare the rod and spoil the child”, though much quoted, is in fact a misinterpretation of Biblical teaching. While the “rod” is mentioned many times in the Bible, it is only in the Book of Proverbs that this word is used in connection with parenting. The book of Proverbs is attributed to Solomon, an extremely cruel man whose harsh methods of discipline led his own son, Rehoboam, to become a tyrannical and oppressive dictator who only narrowly escaped being stoned to death for his cruelty. In the Bible there is no support for harsh discipline outside of Solomon’s Proverbs. By contrast, the writings in the Gospels, the most important books in the Bible for Christians, contain the teachings of Jesus Christ, who urged mercy, forgiveness, humility, and non-violence. Jesus saw children as being close to God, and urged love, never punishment.

5. Punishment interferes with the bond between parent and child, as it is not human nature to feel loving toward someone who hurts us. The true spirit of cooperation which every parent desires can arise only through a strong bond based on mutual feelings of love and respect. Punishment, even when it appears to work, can produce only superficially good behavior based on fear, which can only take place until the child is old enough to resist. In contrast, cooperation based on respect will last permanently, bringing many years of mutual happiness as the child and parent grow older.

6. Many parents never learned in their own childhood that there are positive ways of relating to children. When punishment does not accomplish the desired goals, and if the parent is unaware of alternative methods, punishment can escalate to more frequent and dangerous actions against the child.

7. Anger and frustration which cannot be safely expressed by a child become stored inside; angry teenagers do not fall from the sky. Anger that has been accumulating for many years can come as a shock to parents whose child now feels strong enough to express this rage. Punishment may appear to produce "good behavior" in the early years, but always at a high price, paid by parents and by society as a whole, as the child enters adolescence and early adulthood.

8. Spanking on the buttocks, an erogenous zone in childhood, can create in the child's mind an association between pain and sexual pleasure, and lead to difficulties in adulthood. "Spanking wanted" ads in alternative newspapers attest to the sad consequences of this confusion of pain and pleasure. If a child receives little parental attention except when being punished, this will further merge the concepts of pain and pleasure in the child's mind. A child in this situation will have little self-esteem, believing he deserves nothing better. For more on this topic, see "The Sexual Dangers of Spanking Children".

Even relatively moderate spanking can be physically dangerous. Blows to the lower end of the spinal column send shock waves along the length of the spine, and may injure the child. The prevalence of lower back pain among adults in our society may well have its origins in childhood punishment. Some children have become paralyzed through nerve damage from spanking, and some have died after mild paddlings, due to undiagnosed medical complications.

9. Physical punishment gives the dangerous and unfair message that "might makes right", that it is permissible to hurt someone else, provided they are smaller and less powerful than you are. The child then concludes that it is permissible to mistreat younger or smaller children. When he becomes an adult, he can feel little compassion for those less fortunate than he is, and fears those who are more powerful. This will hinder the establishment of meaningful relationships so essential to an emotionally fulfilling life.

10. Because children learn through parental modeling, physical punishment gives the message that hitting is an appropriate way to express feelings and to solve problems. If a child does not observe a parent solving problems in a creative and humane way, it can be difficult for him to learn to do this himself. For this reason, unskilled parenting often continues into the next generation.

Gentle instruction, supported by a strong foundation of love and respect, is the only truly effective way to bring about commendable behavior based on strong inner values, instead of superficially "good" behavior based only on fear.

(Source)

[ 06-27-2004, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: Dreamer128 ]

I did not read all of it, but know that I disagree with this, let me explain why before you starting thinking bad of me. I do not hit my kids often, and only when they do something really bad do I do it, and do not hit hard, just enough to show them I mean it. take this for example. Skyler is being potty trained, and she just took a bath. she came up front, and while waiting on me to get her clothes, she decided she needed to pee, so she set there and did it instead of going to the potty. she has done this before, and each time she brags that she did it, and when asked why she said because she could do it, when everything else you try does not work, you are still the parent, and have to decide what is better for your belives. I do not belive in always using force with them, but there are times that I feel it is called for, now you can say what ever you wish, but I stand by my thoughts [img]smile.gif[/img]

Shall I write my list of 10 reason to hit your kids? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

LOL. Actually, I agree with this to an extent. Which is starnge, living in southern/middle America, where we are all rather stubborn to an extent. Very good arguments. Even so, as Stormy said, I feel there are times when a child may not be disadvantaged by associating physical pain with a very bad act, or poor behavior. They should also know, not everyone will be as understanding as their parents. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Very interesting thread, Dreamer.

I mostly agree with the ten reasons. But there are a few good reasons to allow spanking as well (Stormy put it better than I could). I think it loses its effectiveness when a child passes a certain age, and most certainly should not be used on a regular basis.

You might also find it interesting that the Supreme Court of Canada recently came down with a decision setting out limits on spanking.

I disagree with Number four. I recall reading somewhere in the bible where it DID say to spank your child. And number one, I believe in spanking children, my parents spanked me, and I rarely ever hit people, I don't even like too.

And number 2, they only responding the only way they know how? Spanking them teaches them that doing that, is WRONG.
5. Spanking is a way to teach them, not make them be afraid of you, only afraid of the spanking.
6. Okay, what kind of positive? Getting up close to them and saying "Don't do that, it's wrong." Kids can be smart and they could start thinking "Hey, they're not gonna do anything to me if I do this, so I'm gonna do it again cause I won't get hurt for it!"
7. Ahem, I have no anger towards my parents, and they disciplined me, with a belt and a paddle. I have anger towards the idiots at my school, such as the bullies and such.
8. Where else are we supposed to spank them?
9. That's why you don't act mean to your kids. You treat them with lots of luvins. Especially after punishment.
10. That's why when they get to a certain age you quit spankings. Little kids are still learning, and you can still teach them at any age. Because once they're of a certain age they learn that hitting each other isn't right, because it just gets them into more trouble. I know I probably didn't make a lot of sense but.. I tried my best. That's my two cents.

EDIT: I'm talking spankings here, abusing children with your fists and slapping them is just plain wrong.

[ 06-27-2004, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: SomeGuy ]

I disagree with most of them, only if your parent has the tendency to hit a child repeatedly for the slightest thing or use verbal abuse too often does any of the negative effects come into the picture. I got spanked as a kid, I got yelled at, but it's because I did was I wasn't supposed to do, and I have a good bond with me mum and dad today and I don't enjoy the whole fighting scenario, only if I'm angry but that is perfectly normal *walks into a corner and mumbles to himself* [img]tongue.gif[/img]

But I think spanking, not slapping or hitting as Someguy said, is required because kids do need to know what is right and wrong and they can't grow up not knowing the difference if it isn't enforced. If physical or verbal abuse comes into play when a child gets older, gets friends and thinks as an individual, then it will have very negative effects, I've seen it myself.

Actually, the Bible tells us to "stone disobedient children" (Deuteronomy 21:18-21).

Even more interesting would be to hear who of thoose that don't agree with the ten reasons themselves have been spanked or raised with a rod that they still think is needed. Seeing as that itself has been explained in the first post.

Having been spanked during my own childraising it has only led me to know one thing:
Pain is pain and pain leads to anger and anger leads to alot more pain.

He's referring to Proverbs 13:24, and a few others in that book.

I believe in spanking. I can't say spanking did me any harm, and I don't hate my father. In fact I believe it molded me into a better person. [img]smile.gif[/img] Still, I do believe once a child reaches a certain age, a different approach needs to be taken rather than corporal punishment.

I hear some people pay for that kind of service.

[ 06-28-2004, 04:29 AM: Message edited by: Dirty Meg ]

Actually, the Bible tells us to "stone disobedient children" (Deuteronomy 21:18-21). </font>[/QUOTE]No, the Bible says that we should not stone 'disobedient' children, it says we should stone those children who refuse to listen and learn even when we have employed spanking or other means of teaching or enforcing.

Besides, the first parts of the Bible are laws for Jews, but my main reason is to show that you are giving a rather harsh image of the Bible and that is not quite right ;)

Can't disagree more. If a 7 year old kid puts iron into electricity socket because he "likes dark" twice per day, on a regular basis, he must be spanked. In israel we have a bunch of loose idiots due to that law. The bunch grews every day.

Wonder why kids in all those listed countries turn out alright if spanking is such a vital tool of parenting? [img]tongue.gif[/img] I don't expect people without negative experiences of spanking to be opposed to it, but a lot of people do have negative experiences, don't they?

Guys, we all need maddox's input on this. In the highly unlikely event that he's right, we can all move to Holland and enjoy wellbehaved non sexually confused children. Here

quote:
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Originally posted by Grojlach:

quote:
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Originally posted by SomeGuy:
I disagree with Number four. I recall reading somewhere in the bible where it DID say to spank your child.

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Actually, the Bible tells us to "stone disobedient children" (Deuteronomy 21:18-21).


What does it matter what the bible say's about hitting your own children!!!
it's sad that some parents need to hit theyre children because they don't know other options or just because out of thinking they have a reason to hit them.

One thing hitting a child who can't hit you back is lame and the person who does it is more stupid then the kid you hitted for.

I´ve never been hit in my entire life and I am a quite well adapted balanced person.
However I don´t think people that spank their children moderatly are complete a-holes,some children have a hard time getting what is right and what´s wrong by merely telling them(but I don´t know anyone who does that since it´s illegal in Sweden since like the 70-80).

Children misbehave because of bad parenting. No one in a position of authority will ever say this though, because children can't vote and parents can.

Exactly.

Well... this is my opinion of the liberal tirade, I mean... ARTICLE. First I'll mention that I've never struck either of my children, I've been lucky enough to have children that have never needed it. My wife utilized a swat on the behind for "hand on the hot stove" type dangerous situations. I believe its use was entirely appropriate.

Overall I don't disagree as strongly as the following rebuttal would seem to indicate, but I HATE it when people like this try to tell me how to parent, so I'm gleefully playing the devils advocate and shooting holes in a poorly written article. ;)

1) This statement is based on an assertion of "extensive research". There is also "extensive research" that has established that using corporal punishment leads to children and adults that are better adjusted... which is correct? Depends on who you talk to, and most importantly, depends on who does the research.

2) In many cases of so-called "bad behavior", the child is simply responding in inapprorpriate ways to things in his/her envirnonment that he/she doesn't like. Correction is not intended to address the lack of coping mechanisms... it is a method of applying a correction for the childs use of an inappropriate coping mechnaism, nothing more. It is the additional responsibility of the parent to provide appropriate coping mechanisms, but that responsibility is in addition to correcting inappropriate behavior, not in replacement of.

3) Again, punishment is not used to teach coping mechanisms, it's used to correct behavior. It does not distract from learning nor does it preoccupy the child with revenge if the child knows he/she was acting inappropriately (if they can cognitively consider revenge then they are typically aware that what they're doing is wrong).

4) Blah blah blah religous B.S. blah blah blah irrelevant irrelevant irrelevant blah blah blah.

5) Complete and utter B.S. (CaUB). Appropriate use of punishment is a tool to be used by the parent, it's potential to interfere with the bond is equivelant to the damage done by overly permissive parents (who's children have no respect for their parents or anyone else). Inappropriate application of ANY tool is likely to cause problems, punishment is just a tool. Children respond positively on an emotional and behavioral level to parents who care enough to provide limits on their childrens behavior, and punishment is one tool available to enforce those (oft tested) limits.

6) Straw man... "many parents" is an attempt to make a narrow conclusion broad. The VAST majority of parents love their children and apply positive methods whenever possible, the few incompetent parents out there are NOT representative of parents at large. This is what I like to call the "gun control argument". Since the tool is abused by a few, we should of course then take it away from all, it's an intellectually bankrupt argument.

7) Angry teen syndrom is far more a phenomena of modern parenting than it ever was in the old days of physical punishment. IMO it's permissive parents who raise uncontrollable teens that cause this particular problem. I find the fact that those same parents use the problem they've created to justify trying to FORCE others to adopt their parenting methods rather amusing.

8) Spanking is typically on the behind because it gets attention without causing real pain. Erogenous zones... sheesh... this is REALLY reaching, probably trying to appeal to the phobias many North Americans have about sex. Then throw in lower back pain so everyone who's been spanked and have back pain can blame his parents instead of the 200 lb sacks of concrete he was lifting the other day. CaUB!

9) Again I disagree, the APPROPRIATE use of punishment corrects a behavior, and ironically, correctable behaviors INCLUDE physical violence. The prevelance of violence in our teens these days... ESPECIALLY teens who lack a discipline maintiaining father figure... refutes the authors conclusion.

10) children learn thorugh parental modeling, and the use of physical punishment becomes a tool available to the well balanced parent (just one more tool among MANY used to raise their children).

"Gentle instruction blah blah blah" is simply the authors attempt to put an unassailably humanisitic front on what is essential an attempt to limit the tools that parents have available to raise their children. This author is essentially telling every parent that they're incompentent, unable to determine situationally when physical punishment is the appropriate tool for the situation.

Many children can and are raised successfully using reinforcing (positive and negative) methods only, but many others grow up with no parental respect (which leads to lack of respect for ANY authority), no discipline, and a lack of personal accountability that allows them to justify any behavior, no matter how bad. When you see these children (and you will OFTEN these days) you can be assured that it's society reaping the rewards of its 'kinder, gentler', and more ineffectual parenting methods.

Behavioral modification can take essentailly four forms, positive and negative reinforcement, punishment, and extinction. By forcing parents to ONLY use reinforcement methods, this author and others like him are making the job of parenting far more difficult (and possibly impossible in the case of some children)... all based on their FEELING that they have all the answers and that the rest of us are too incompetent to know what is best for our children.

They're the modern version of the old 'Busy Body'... busy minding everyone else's business because then they don't have to look at the mess they've quite often made of their own lives.

[ 06-28-2004, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

Gotta pipe in.

First off, while some of the reasons are plausible, some are just foolish.

#2 -- translated, says "You bad parent! It's your fault."

#3 -- slippery slope. Do all spankings follow up with "feelings of anger and fantasies of revenge"? Some do and may, but not all.

#4 -- not an issue, but Old Testament and New Testament are dramatically different. Old is much more black-and-white wrath and punishment oriented, while New is more compassionate. I'll leave that there.

#7 - spank your kid, create a columbine. Somehow, the cause-and-effect link isn't quite there.

#8 - spanking leads to sexual exploration and lower back pain? Okay, I'd like to see some actual study on this one... I was spanked as a kid, and lemmetellya, it's not high up on my fantasy list ;)

Now, all that being said, even though I was spanked as a kid, I've never spanked either of my kids. Why? Well, partially because I act, and don't react. Or at least, that's what I try.

When I see people spanking their kids, more often than not it appears to be done in reaction to what's happening at the moment.

I came across something once that said if you're going to spank, do it the next day when you're not caught up in the moment. At that point, if you can clearly decide that spanking is the appropriate response, do it.

For me, I have yet to find something where the next day, spanking was the best response. It's definitely not a case where my kids think I won't do anything; rather, they know I'll do something, but it will impact something they care more about than their behind. Playtime, privileges, going out, special toy time... those are things that they can give up temporarily.

I've had conversations with my kids where I make it clear that I love them, and I don't like that behavior. There has to be a consequence, and sometimes we'll discuss what the consequence should be.

I've also had conversations with them where I apologized or said I was sorry. I've acknowledged making mistakes before, and promised to try to avoid them in the future.

See, my job as a parent is not to create some rule-obeying automaton. It's to create someone who, in just a few short years, will be able to survive on their own as a reasonable and competent adult. To do that, I have to talk to them at a higher level every so often, so that they understand the reason behind some of the decisions we make.

And I have to disagree -- while many children may misbehave because of bad parenting, logically that's as accurate as saying all gamers are antisocial devil worshippers. Some may be, but that doesn't characterize the entire group. There are other reasons kids may misbehave, from physical and medical conditions to simply just being sick.

Last week Monday, I flew from Detroit to Boston. In front of me was a woman with two kids, around ages 3 and 6. The six-year-old was not having a good day, and was crying throughout the process of going through security. He ultimately went through twice (because the first time he banged against the sides, which sets of the detector).

When I finally got through, I went past. I could hear him still crying, so, thinking of what it would be like if my wife were in that situation, I went back to offer some help. The woman at that point was standing with the older boy in one arm, trying to keep him from wandering away somewhere, while she tried to buckle the younger child into her stroller. She was having none of it either at this point, and the woman gratefully accepted help getting the girl buckled in.

Turns out the boy was a special-needs child, and his reaction was appropriate for the situation he was in. Unfortunately for everyone else, it's not what they wanted.

Would spanking have helped him? I don't think so. It would have caused an acceleration to a higher level of conflict.

Before I had kids, I thought the rules for raising them were black-and-white. Now that I have them, I realize that they shift around every day, with every situation, just like life does. I know I won't be a perfect parent, but I can give it my best shot and try to fix things when I go off course.

Hmmm... I know where I started this, but I'm not completely sure how I got to where it ended. Oh well... 'tis still true, and still my opinion. [img]smile.gif[/img]

LOL... a grain of truth but to simplistic.

Children misbehave because they don't know HOW to behave, it's the parents responsiblity to guide them as they grow, to TEACH them how to behave. A bad parent can cause bad behavior in their children, both by teaching them bad behaviors and failing to teach them good ones, but bad parenting is not the cause of all misbehavior. The toddler that grabs the toy from another is not doing so because their parent taught them to, but the 7 year old who does the same thing is doing so because their parents never taught them NOT to.

True. Of course people must have some space when raising their children, but I do feel that when it they manage to prove that hitting children has longlasting negative physical and psychological consequences (even if this only applies on a limited number of children), steps must be taken to protect these kids. There are plenty of bad parents around, and there should be limits to the damage they can do to their children.

On another note, if anyone has an article proclaiming the benefits of spanking kids, feel free to post it here.

[ 06-28-2004, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: Dreamer128 ]

True. Of course people must have some space when raising their children, but I do feel that when it they manage to prove that hitting children has longlasting negative physical and psychological consequences (even if this only applies on a limited number of children), steps must be taken to protect these kids. There are plenty of bad parents around, and there should be limits to the damage they can do to their children.

On another note, if anyone has an article proclaiming the benefits of spanking kids, feel free to post it here. </font>[/QUOTE]It's a dangerous thing to use broad legislation to protect a few, and it's impossible to legislate good parenting. At best such action is ineffectual, at worst it does real damage. If a tool can be correctly and appropriately applied by good parents, it's wrong to play social engineer and take it way... all the while hopeing that there won't be any negative social implecations.

I'd equally like to see real clinical studies that establish long term damage from parental spanking (not child abuse, there's already lots of legislation covering that).

Yeah, you're right - the act of stoning in such a case isn't harsh or barbarian whatsoever. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

What does it matter what the bible say's about hitting your own children!!!</font>[/QUOTE]Exactly my point. But I didn't bring it up, SomeGuy did. ;)

[ 06-28-2004, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

LOL, I had to laugh at some of the replies but at some parts of the article too. I mean what the hell is this about??

8. Spanking on the buttocks, an erogenous zone in childhood, can create in the child's mind an association between pain and sexual pleasure, and lead to difficulties in adulthood. "Spanking wanted" ads in alternative newspapers attest to the sad consequences of this confusion of pain and pleasure. If a child receives little parental attention except when being punished, this will further merge the concepts of pain and pleasure in the child's mind. A child in this situation will have little self-esteem, believing he deserves nothing better. For more on this topic, see "The Sexual Dangers of Spanking Children".

Erm, somehow I don't think the quite significant number of people who are into S&M have all been spanked as children. And making a little spank during sex sound perverse and even "sad" smacks of the sort of closeminded prudish attitude that is prevalent among people who've never tried anything beyond missionary. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
(note for the hotheaded; I'm not disclosing anything about my personal preferences here [img]tongue.gif[/img] , just picking up on something I thought was stupid)

As for the issue in general; I don't think my parents have spanked me for more than 4 or 5 times in my entire life (spanking as in a short sharp angry slap given when I was REALLY pushing the limits, not as in being put over the parent's knee and hit repeatedly as rational punishment - they never did that). I don't think it's necessary, but I don't find it particularly awful either that I was slapped a few times, because it happened so extremely rarely. I disagree with spanking as a measured, frequent, standard punishment (i.e. child commits offense, is told what it did wrong and that it will be punished by being put over the knee and given any given number of hits) and would never consider it as an option myself. And I'm convinced that the countless parents who feel likewise are none the worse parents for it, in my eyes perhaps even better.

Right, I forgot about the goofiness of #8 when writing previous posts. I don't consider it a sexual danger, unless taken to abusive extremes.

For the record, I think I was only ever spanked once by my parents (at <6 years old). I don't have any kids, but when I do I certainly won't use spanking as a disciplinary measure until absolutely EVERYTHING else has failed to get the point across.

However, two of my good friends were regularly spanked as children, and they turned out just fine. They are gentle, moral young men with an excellent relationship with their parents. So I'm not prepared to condemn spanking altogether. I'm not saying that there isn't other effective methods of child rearing, just that spanking does not necessarily =evil.

No, I think it is fairly obvious that spanking does not create deranged, abusive, effed-up adults in 100% of the cases - thankfully. :D If that were so there would be plenty of areas in the world full of psycho people. I do however think spanking is not strictly necessary and as such I doubt I would use it as a punishment. Why do that if you can manage just as well with other forms of punishment?

Exactly. Spanking children wouldn't be my choice, but I'm prepared to allow others to raise their children that way within reasonable limits.

Actually, the Bible tells us to "stone disobedient children" (Deuteronomy 21:18-21). </font>[/QUOTE]No, it told Ancient Israeli society to. Not gentiles like you or I. ;) Certainly not Christians freed from the law of Moses.

It follows I guess, that, as per the biblical promise, honoring you father and mother led to a long life. :D

I disagree with corporal punishment. I was hit as a child - in anger - and will not hit my children. Didn't read all the argument, as I'm already convinced. I don't know about making it illegal though. Increasing education is probably a better option.

Spanking is also a quick way to stop wrong behavior. During the toddler stage, a child is not capably communicating in verbal ways, so some physical component, such as a wrist slap, is simply negative reinforcement. Also, it depends on the child. Galadria rarely disciplined Piestrider, since he is cautious and prudent, but Will (age 5) needed several spankings in his pre-school career.

Yeah, you're right - the act of stoning in such a case isn't harsh or barbarian whatsoever. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. </font>[/QUOTE]Look at the CONTEXT Grol. Laws for a new and evolving society, defining morality.

In middle eastern cultures there has been a proliferation of family bloodshed and rivalry. In the Bible, King David fought off two armed rebellions against his own sons. Certainly they were "rebellious". What did that do for the society?

Other examples are that in Pashto, the word for "cousin" doubles as "enemy". One and the same word.

In a harsh world, hash measures were clearly needed, in establishing a society of mutual protection, respect, law and prosperity. Times have changed in certain areas thankfully, but not others.

Context is the key to getting anything from the bible. Otherwise you could justify anything (as people do).

I do... isn't the whole planet effed up, full of psychos? What have we done to the place???

First thing that happens to a kid when they're born is they're whacked on the arse. So they'll breathe by crying.... what a reception!

I sincerely doubt that a lack of physical punishment of children is responsible for the mess the planet is in.

One could make as strong an argument for why people are messed up BY spanking as why they are kept on the right path by it. It depends on the kid, the parents, and many other variables.

actually, the practice of spanking a newborn has gone out as well, now they rub a towel vigoriuosly on the chest and place a suction bulb into their throats ;)

I half agree with you on this one, but IMO it is more a lack of guidence than anything else, when I was in school, if we brought a gun or knife to school, we would get a paddling by the principal, then by our parents, but now the kids are doing it without fear of conciqunces of their actions, I am not saying go back to beating a child, but there should be some limit to putting a stop to children getting away with these things now, in the older days, before my time, kids brought knives to school, and as far as I know, never used them for anything more than open a bottle of soda. now kids know how to use weapons, and what they are for, perhaps it has something to do with what they watch everyday on TV..but I doubt it, I think it is more a lack of focus and guidence of right and wrong

Don't worry Yorick, I'm fairly aware of all that. ;) I just hope people will keep the same thing in mind when they're ripping phrases out of context from the Kuran in their attempts to "prove" that the Islam is a violent and barbarous religion.

[ 06-28-2004, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

Our children are sometimes an uncomfortable reflection of our parenting. When our kids underacheive or behave badly, go look in the mirror and ask yourself why. Almost every time, I attribute it to my overly laid back attitude. My propensity to take the easy way out and not put enough effort into parenting. As soon as I put more hours and dollars into parenting, things improved greatly. You get out of it, what you put into it! Nothing good comes without work and sacrifice.

I half agree with you on this one, but IMO it is more a lack of guidence than anything else, when I was in school, if we brought a gun or knife to school, we would get a paddling by the principal, then by our parents, but now the kids are doing it without fear of conciqunces of their actions, I am not saying go back to beating a child, but there should be some limit to putting a stop to children getting away with these things now, in the older days, before my time, kids brought knives to school, and as far as I know, never used them for anything more than open a bottle of soda. now kids know how to use weapons, and what they are for, perhaps it has something to do with what they watch everyday on TV..but I doubt it, I think it is more a lack of focus and guidence of right and wrong </font>[/QUOTE]Yes. But lack of guidance and lack of spanking are two different things. I agree that, for example, bringing guns and knives to school is bad, but it is possible to put limits on that without spanking/paddling. I don't contest the fact that more guidance is necessary, but spanking will probably not solve the problem. It's more about attitude (parental and children's) than anything else. If we were to go back to paddling those that bring guns to school, it's likely the next time the kid would blow away the principal in retaliation. That said, it's a bad problem; I'm lucky to live in a place where guns aren't too accessible.