During the planning of a crime?
Once the crime has been commited?
Once he is found guilty?

So if I commit a crime and get found not guilty am I a criminal or am I an innocent man?

Does it make a difference if the weight of evidence is overwhelming?

If the cops didn't see it, I didn't do it...

[img]smile.gif[/img]

During the planning of a crime?

Can be - "conspiracy" and "posession with intent" are examples.

Once the crime has been commited?

Absolutely - once you have committed a criminal act, you are a criminal, but see below.

Once he is found guilty?

Then you become a convicted criminal and the state can levy whatever sentence the offence merits. Up to that point, whether a criminal act has been committed or not, the state has no right to take sanctions beyond detention pending trial (if justified).

[ 12-18-2003, 07:43 AM: Message edited by: Mouse ]

(The following assumes your country has a similar legal system to the US)
I would say no, due to the simple fact that "not guilty" is not the same as "innocent". If a jury trial was meant to prove that someone was innocent then the burden of proof would be on the defendant. All a "not guilty" verdict means was that the prosecutor was unable to prove his case.

My mate drove to manchester to commit an armed robbery. He'd never been caught or convicted of any previous crime although he was a professional armed robber. The operation was a sting from start to finish. He, I and others in the knowledge are convinced the police planned to murder them rather than capture them. (Ever seen a dead armed robber on the deck shot by the police? It happens, far easier to solve that way too). A lone unplanned witness fouled things for the police who then had no absolute case as the place they went to rob never existed.

3 loaded handguns, balaclavas etc in the car sealed his fate and the fate of others and he received 19 years for conspiracy to murder and rob. He spent 13 years 5 months banged up as a "Category A dispersal" prisoner. He was returned to the streets a heroin addict after his *spit* rehabillitation.

Good question, who are the real criminals?

One doesn't become a criminal until 3 conditions are met.
1) those with the authority make the claim.
2) those with the power to back the claim up make it.
3) those with the will to make the claim do so.
until then you are simply a human that other humans have opinions of, just like everybody else.

So I could murder someone and unless I'm caught I'm not a criminal. That doesn't sound right.

As to 2) Am I a criminal just because they have the power to back there claim up? Even if I( didn't commit the crime.

So I could murder someone and unless I'm caught I'm not a criminal. That doesn't sound right.

As to 2) Am I a criminal just because they have the power to back there claim up? Even if I( didn't commit the crime. </font>[/QUOTE]By your and most civilized standards it doesn't seem right, but in reality that is exactly the way it is, unless there is some authorthity with the power and will to make the claims you are not a criminal. ie: if you are in country A and the laws of that country say you can kill somebody for looking at you goat then you are not a criminal if you kill them for looking at your goat. Now if you are in country B and it's laws say you can't kill anybody for any reason, and you kill somebody for looking at your goat then you're a criminal provided those with the authority have the power and will to carry out their laws.

The worlds prisons are full of people that don't reconize the authority of the state that calls them criminals, but they are still in prison. The world is full of people that have fled to other counties, where the country they comitted a crime in doesn't have the power to back up the claim. Likewise the world is full of people where the authorities don't have the will to make the claim, ie: just a petty crime, cost too much, ahh he's my brother -in-law and I don't want to arrest him.

Planning something Donut ? :D

I would ratchet the whole thing back. As soon as you have committed a crime you're a criminal. Whether you have been caught/convicted/punished by the state is immaterial. That's just adding official recognition post facto.

It's like being HIV positive. As soon as you have the virus, that's your status. The test only confirms it.

You can grow old while infected with HIV though. Even live a normal life like any other person, re Magic Johnson.

I say thinking of crime does not make you a criminal. Everyone has weird thoughts every once in a while. I've been in situations where i really wanted to hurt a certain person. If i had a gun at that moment, i'd have probably used it. It was just a thought though, that doesn't make me a killer.

Maybe I'm just getting too hung up on the logic of this whole proposition. I agree with all the above, but it's irrelevant. Whether MJ choses to make his HIV status public knowledge or not does not alter the basic fact that he has the virus.

I've been attending a festive get-together involving several alcoholic drinks today. If I go out tonight, drive my car and run over another person, whether or not I get caught/convicted/punished will not alter the basic fact that I will have committed a crime and would be a criminal.

But rest assured, for tonight, my car stays safely parked :D

Nothing wrong with that, have a ball Mouse. :D

Agreed but unlike a virus, a crime is a subjective thing. Subject to the authority that desides what is and isn't a crime, and if that authority has the power and will to project it's authority. If no law is broken it is not a crime. Was Ghengis Khan a criminal? By our modern standards, most would say yes, by the standards of those in authority (namely him), to deside if he was not a criminal, the answer is no.

Good point John. It all depends whether 'crime' is an absolute or an opinion.