Here's the link from Bluenews.com

Feeling sorry for the employees that have been "let go". They've done some sterling work as of late.

Sad news

An intresting post on the link you posted Jim is this

"Why doesnt anyone blame piracy? Sure Interplay sucks ***** but piracy does its deal as well. thanks to piracy a lot of great developers went poof and others just jump on the mainstream train, so that it wont happen to them. console games sell in a much better ratio compared to PC games. no wonder more and more console s**t coming out, forgetting or screwing up PC versions. you wonder why system shock 2, NOLF series and undying flopped on the market? yet you dont wonder why everyone knows those games and played them. you can do really good games and they WILL sell, but only if people HAVE to buy it. look at those MMORPGs, they sell like mad BECAUSE YOU NEED TO BUY them to play. you cant pirate them.
IMO we need to blame piracy more than interplay."


The guy has a point I think. So hats of to Ziroc for being so firm on the issue of piracy involving games. We are cutting our own throat :(

[ 12-09-2003, 04:58 AM: Message edited by: wellard ]

This is bad for Interplay, they just killed their biggest source of PC games. They will probably move to console only.

Except for the cancellation of Fallout 3 I am happy about this. The pc rpg scene has been messed up with mostly only bad title being released, and we need some new companies. These days, all the big companies think about is trying to change roleplaying games into action games to get as much an audience as possible, but their hybrids end up pleasing no one.

Most PC games companies are dying. My prediction is that most of the big ones will closes or get smaller, and for a while we might get very few pc games. Until we get some new companies.

I blame bad design decisions and too much spamming of bad games more than I blame piracy. It seem to me that more than 75% of the PC games that get released are uninspired unfinished products and clones pushed out to make a quick buck.

<font color=red>Ya, well, what about the BG series? Those we're some of the best rpg's ever! This really sucks. Do you think someone else will pick up where they left off? IWD 3 maybe? NWN 3 maybe? jees, this could be really bad for my gibbies! thats how I pacify them when there gettin roudy!!!
Crap! </font>

Actually, it was Bioware that developed the Baldur's Gate series and Neverwinter Nights. I believe Black Isle was the producer of Baldur's Gate II, though I'm not sure.


This is a sad thing indeed. Not only did they create the great Fallout series, but also Planescape: Torment, which was the greatest jewel of the history of all RPGs. Nevertheless, we need to move on to new grounds, new great games.

Though, as I recall, nothing really great has been released in the past few years(Warcraft III doesn't count as RPG [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] ). I guess we'll just have to be patient.

[ 12-09-2003, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: uss ]

I think we'l have to be very patient ;)

[ 12-09-2003, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: RoSs_bg2_rox ]

*sniff* *sniff* They made the best games of all times(BG SERIES for me) . I have been playing BG II for there years now but still i love it very much...

<font color=red">
<font size>R.I.P Black Isle Studios!</font>

</font>

I loved the IWD series they did. That company was unique in itself compared to Bioware.

The games were made by the devs and not by the company name. The devs are still out there. Only a name died.

[ 12-09-2003, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Luvian ]

But didn't the devs' cooperation in developing games also die?

But didn't the devs' cooperation in developing games also die? </font>[/QUOTE]They'll simply move to a new game company. Let's hope this time they find one that is really interested in making good and interesting games, as opposed to Interplay.

And for the record, a lot of the Original BIS members had already left.

Ha, really? I thought the team fell apart. That's good to hear.

And I heard about the part about the original BIS members - They made a company by themselves, did they not? Let's see how that fares.

There's also the creators of Arcanum and ToEE, who used to be a part of BIS.

Interplay has made a couple good games in my opinion..Descent comes to mind, but they totally killed that series with Freespace and Descent3

Fallout 1 and 2 and BG2 are my favorite RPG games, ever. Too bad Black Isle is going down =(

Didn't Brian Fargo used to be a member of Black Isle? And isn't he and his new company InXile working on a remake of Bards Tale?

It's sad to see BIS go. But some of their games weren't really commercial hits. I'm thinking of IWD 1&2 and PS:T, good games but never sold more than to make ends meet.

[ 12-09-2003, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: Stratos ]

But didn't the devs' cooperation in developing games also die? </font>[/QUOTE]They'll simply move to a new game company. Let's hope this time they find one that is really interested in making good and interesting games, as opposed to Interplay.

And for the record, a lot of the Original BIS members had already left. </font>[/QUOTE]<font color=lime>Yes, lets really hope so. I was/am looking forward to maybe a BG style game set in Krynn. Man, now that would great! ;) </font>

Hate to see them go. I agree that the move anymore is to console games (I go into game shops (Game Stop, Electronics Boutique, etc.), and the PC section just gets smaller and smaller). And they really are putting out some real garbage out there with the rushes (look at ToEE; the thing had more bugs than any game I had ever seen).

Oh well, I just read the posts on this forum, and wait in most cases to hear the word of mouth on PC games. If it sounds good, I consider buying it (I didn't wait for word of mouth on ToEE, and ended up getting a Beta project).

shame... they made such nice rpg's.. thats what made me come to IW in the first place.

IWD 1 & 2 never sold more than to make ends meet :eek: I am not to sure about that Stratos. Does any one out there know for sure how many copys a game sold? Like they do with records. I thought those games sold very well.

Yeah, well they probably sold more than to make the ends meet. ;) What I was meaning to say is that they didn't become smash hits. That's what I've heard but I could have gotten it all wrong.

I also heard that IWD and it's sequel didn't make as much as BIS hoped for.

Ah well, If a game is a smash hit, it aint always bad, and the other way round too. PLANESCAPE: TORMENT is a fine example.

I'm very sad to hear this. The family of companies that make good RPGs is not so big as to not be diminished by their loss. I raise my coffee mug to Black Isle in tribute.


(As I do so, I also utter a silent prayer that the team and its support group are able to be integrated into another company that will turn out RPG software of equal or better quality.)

Same here...

Damn it's like losing Looking Glass Studios all over again. Damn Pirates making copys and the what not.

I agree! I don't mind Music Piracy but Games/Movies Piracy is where they should draw the line with a permanent marker!

[ 12-10-2003, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: The Whackmiester ]

I wouldn't blame piracy too much. I was watching an interview with the president of Ubisoft Montreal tonight, and they plan to sell at least 2 millions copies of Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time for Chrismas. They also talked about other games I forgot about, but if you add it all, they plan to sell more than 5 millions games for this Chrismas. Just from their newest games.

Companies like to pretend they are losing a lot due to piracy, but they are playing with numbers.

Sure, your average 15 years old internet pirate might download 50-100 games per year, but he would only have bought 2-3 if there was no piracy, so they only lost 100-150$ from that guy, not 2500-5000$

It's the same things for movies and music, but truth make a less powerfull argument than sensationalism.

The real reasons companies are closing is from bad managment and abuse of their customers. Notice that both Ubisoft and EA are going strong. None of them released a rushed game recently, and almost all of their games are bug free. Did you see lots of bugs in the Sims or in Need for Speed: Underground? I didn't.

Let's look at Interplay and Atari. They Canceled two good projects that were about 50% completed, they released Lionheart, Temple of Elemental Evil and probably tons of other rushed, buggy and crappy products. They both also have an horrible customer support...

It's strange how only the bad companies are in financial troubles...

[ 12-11-2003, 12:03 AM: Message edited by: Luvian ]

I absolutely agree with Luvian here.

And I know many people in Estonia (and other Eastern European countries?) wouldn't have even been introduced to gaming for quite some time, were it not for piracy.

[img]graemlins/offtopic.gif[/img]

Good point, Luvian. I've always been more than a little skeptical about piracy losses that companies report. They always report it as "this item was copied X number of times, so the losses are X times selling price". That's not the truth. They lose whatever the person would have spent if they did not download the item(s).

I researched this in my graduate business studies, and while piracy is a major issue, the real reason piracy is a major problem is because the incentive is there to commit it. When you charge close to $20.00 for a CD that only has 2 songs the person would have bought, then they feel (rightfully) that they are getting bent over on the deal. So when this alternate technology comes out that undermines the deal they have going and cuts into profits, they demonize it to protect the status quo (change is costly in the business sector, especially when it comes to technology). If the person above started downloading instead of buying that CD, you need to look at the consumption they would have done. If your CD sales were low to begin with because people just were not buying as much (because you were bending them over), then when this new technology comes out, your losses are only the amount of the drop in your sales, since that is the actual amount of lost revenue. If they downloaded two additional songs, then that is not lost revenue if they would have never considered spending the money on a CD or CD single for the song otherwise. It is, however, a copyright infringement, and in that way should still be punished. But still, to inflate the figures as they do (and to pass it down to the shop owners in increased prices) is just denying the fact that your business model no longer works as efficiently as it used to, and you need to change. Look at what Apple has done recently with downloading music; that model may put brick and mortar retailers out of business, but that has happened in other industries, too. That's what happens when technology changes.

I love the movie studios blaming text messaging for lagging ticket sales at theaters; it's another fine example of this. Maybe if you didn't put out a lousy movie to begin with, then the consumer wouldn't be text messaging their friends telling them not to waste their money.

:ontopic: (you really need a smiley for this one)
I agree completely about the games coming out. As someone that suffered through ToEE, and now has played with Warcraft III (great game), it is a clear sign of what I was describing above. You put the consumer in a bad situation, and then are surprised when your sales drop and/or they pirate your mediocre game rather than blow the money up front. And other than the Infinity Engine games, how many real big sellers did Black Isle put out? I only know of the Infinity Engine games, myself, and not all of those sold well, either. It just so happens that one series that they put out (BG series) and one other game (PS:T) are my favorite games that I have played. I'll be sorry to see them go in that regard, but if you are not putting out enough good stuff to bring in sales, you will go the way of the dinosaur. That simple.

The lesson: It's really easy to blame an external source rather than to face your own internal problems. People do it all the time; it is human nature. Look in a mirror once in a while.

what?! Black Isle studios gone???

Well bummer :( .

A very thoughtfull post Nerull with some excellent points [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

Well let me be the first to say I disagree! It's true that quality of the game affects the sales and such and all that. I still think that Piracy is the bigger issue. Sometime ago Halo was released. Before it was released there were many ads that it's coming out for PC. And millions of gamers are going crazy over this. When the game comses out some gamers buy the game but many prefer to download it. For either two reasons 1) To save money and 2)They cannot afford it. It's true that gaming companies might lose some 150-300 dollars from ONE gamer. People we are talking millions here! Multiply 50 dollars by a million. I don't know how big but I know it's a large number. Piracy takes a huge bite out of the companies profits folks. And has any of you heard of warez sites? Huge pirating websites which sell games at a price lower at your local Gamestop.

Those are my two cents.

Oh, I'm not saying that piracy is an issue. It is. However, I am stating that it is nowhere near the issue that they are making it out to be. As someone studying to be an accountant, I am just stating that the amount that would be considered a "loss" is what they lose from the sales figure due to the downloading, NOT the total price x quantity that was downloaded. If the person was never going to buy the game, no matter what, then that does not count as a loss. Copyright infringement, sure, but not a sales loss. Thus, when they tell you that "we lost X dollars due to piracy", they are actually going price x quantity. I am stating that this is not an accurate figure. If only 500,000 copies would have been sold in a market without piracy, but then with the piracy it sells only 300,000 copies, but another 400,000 are pirated, then the loss is 200,000 copies (500,000 - 300,000), not 400,000 copies. The extra 200,000 copies pirated were done by people that would not have bought the game to begin with (at least at the price it was being offered at), so whether piracy exists or not you would not have made the extra 200,000 in sales at that price. The reason is they go price x quantity when talking to the media is to inflate the loss figures for their own agenda, which is to eliminate something they see as a threat to the status quo, which is them on top. Any time major changes come to technology that affects an industry, there is always the threat that the players in that industry will not adapt quickly enough and thus fall out of that industry. That is a very real threat to the current game/music/movie industries, and rather than adapt they use their influence that they built up through the years to lash out at the forces of that change. The reason brick and mortar outlets are hurting right now is because of the move to downloading, NOT just piracy downloading, but all downloading. Why do you think Apple's music downloading site is booming? Because that is the move of the industry, towards a downloading environment (pay or not). It will do in most of the brick and mortar establishments eventually (some will remain, of course, but that depends on how quickly those establishments adapt to the new technology). The current players in the industries involved, especially the music and movie industries, did not adapt quickly to the changes, and thus are now fighting for their places in the industry. Change is extremely costly, especially when it comes to technology, so they would like nothing better than to limit downloading and get people back into the brick and mortar establishments. They attack piracy because it is the easy culprit, and it is illegal due to copyright infrigement. The reason they waited for ages (people were pirating songs for years before the RIAA took action) is to set up deals with sites like the Apple site. Thus, they are finally beginning to adapt, and are now trying to edge out all the competition that cropped up with the demand for downloaded music. It will start with piracy, and then move to price cutting wars against smaller download sites. The exact same tactic they used against the "mom and pop" record stores in the 1980s. However, until they can get themselves in a position to adapt to the changes, they will keep demonizing piracy (mostly to try to slow down the downloading demand until they can get themselves in position to capitalize on that demand).

I'm not saying this stuff as an opponent to the industries (even though I am). I'm looking at it from a business standpoint. Trust me, you would not believe the way figures are twisted around by businesses, political figures, and media to make a point. I have been privy to more than a few such instances in my previous work experiences. I'm just stating that the figures they are giving you for piracy losses are way overstated, because it serves their purposes to do so. That doesn't mean that they do not take piracy losses. They do. Just not as much as they are making it out to be.

It is clear Nerull, that you are in your element here [img]smile.gif[/img]

I feel that piracy is being slowly phased out anyway. Online gaming has exploded over the last couple of years, and the lack of a genuine CD key, or the owning one that is shared by 10,000's of others (say, aquired from Google groups), will not allow that played to connect to a server. This is certainly the case for Half Life and Half Life 2, which simply will not authenticate users when they try to connect to servers, because someone is already connected with that same CD Key. Tactics like this almost force users to go and purchase the game if they like it and want to play online.

Another important factor that publishing companies need to learn, is that having different release dates for a particular game all over the world is almost asking for piracy. If a game is released in the States a full month before say, Europe, then the people in Europe may have a temptation to "aquire" the game by other means. Having a uniform release all over the world may help to reduce this temptation.

Something good will come forth out of this, it always does. It's Bioware that fell, not the people behind it. Some of them will team up with other talented developers and come up with an unexpected brilliant game. If there were any plans for a BG3, it WILL come out sometime. The team behind it is dead, but not the plan itself.

An example is when the team behind Medal of Honor split up. Everyone in the FPS corner were convinced there wasn't gonna be a sequel. But other developers stepped in and came up with Spearhead and Breakthrough, and the soon to be released Rising Sun. The developers behind the original game went their own way and came up with Call of Duty, not the least of the WW2 shooters i'd say. ;)

My guess is that there are some very talented developers, currently unemployed, who are eager to team up with a new fresh crew, and get to work on some other great CRPG.

The king is dead, long live the king. :D

I think not becuase IIRC Interplay and BIS argued becuase of the license.

Well, if they don't come to an agreement, neither one isn't gonna make any money. I'm sure noone can be THAT stupid.

The option of those two getting together again is pretty much equal to zero... :( I hope that will hapen tough

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
First 3do and now black isle? It is not happening! it is not!!!! whaaaaa... :(

50 X 1 000 000 = 50 000 000 :D


In addition to what Nerull said, I wanted to say one point: It's possible for piracy to actually make some people buy games they they wouldn't have initially bought. People who play pirated games can also become fanatics and make fanpages and write reviews and stuff like that - People who buy games mostly buy a game only when they've heard great reviews about it.

I've also read that there are people, who download games to see how good they are, and if it *really* is good, they buy it.

Most companies receive enough money to get along fine as is, and don't game companies think about the worldwide fame of their games amongst gamers in general? This view might seem overly positive, but if a person downloads the game, it means that he has interest in it :D


Black Baron, 3DO's gone too!? Salutations to the most replayable game of all time, Heroes of Might and Magic III - A game I've not got tired of since 1997, I still play it Multi Player with my friends.

[ 12-12-2003, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: uss ]

[img]graemlins/crying.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/saywhat.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/jawdrop.gif[/img] NOOOOO!!! [img]graemlins/jawdrop.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/saywhat.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/crying.gif[/img]

kill'em kill the pirates [img]graemlins/blownup.gif[/img]


Looks like the other companies.. [img]graemlins/confused2.gif[/img] ...companies what companies???

First 3do, then Black Isle, next...... ? * shudder *