Oh My god! After all these years and centuries of coming up in the world. We can vote, work , have kids, and basically have the same rights as men, women that is. But today showed me, everyday does in fact, that some men will always think that we belong in the kitchen and are not able to take our opinions as valuable. I was being appraised for my yearly raise and my manager said his piece of why he evaluated me the way he did and when I said mine, I got a little upset and of course like any man would, he said discussion was over. It really made me upset. You see, this is the work situation where I work. Larry, the mananger is straddling the fence, doesn't know whether he is gay or straight. Divorced for about nine years now, father of two, I am convinced he hates all women. Sean, 18, openly gay, boyfriend of another store manager in our district, I am beginning to not stand him at all. Tony, who doesn't care about the job at all, not gay or straight, but more gay than straight if that makes sense. He is actually ok. Joe, oriental guy, doesn't understand much english, but at least he isn't gay, lol. He is a very decent guy. When a woman expresses her opinion, asserts herself, she is a female dog, (dont' know if I can say the other word on here and don't want to get that cat after me). But when a man expresses himself, he is being strong. Why? Well, I am personally tired of it and will not take it anymore. So here is my open statement to all women everywhere, stand up for ourselves, ******* or not! Yea women power! Watch out men, here we come!
Finally through venting, The mighty Belle (half of poor Azred)

<font color = lightgreen>She's right, you know.

See, even I know when to shut up and agree. [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img]

note: I might have to sleep on the balcony for saying that</font>

gee.. this is the first time ive heard of this.. gays being fem haters. (based on your opinion of course). Its ok to stand up to your rights.. just as long you dont trample over us men in the process. my2c

I am a man - but I wasn't involved in your bad experience. Why do I have to suffer too?

[img]graemlins/greenbounce.gif[/img]
Insane

Aww, Belle, rant all you like! I have actually been in similar situations, with bosses who really don't care about anything but their own needs and employees are a means to achieving that. Even had one boss who hated women and actually said things that confirmed it and insulted specific women in our department in my presence, as if a "lowly" secretary was just a piece of office furniture and and couldn't repeat it...sheesh!


But as they say, "This too shall pass"!. Hope the rant makes you feel a little better, Belle! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 09-09-2003, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: Cloudbringer ]

Bah! Quit your whining woman and get back to work!

[ 09-09-2003, 08:32 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

Actually many scientists are beginning to doubt that the gender roles was as clear cut back in prehistoric times either.


If we should believe the global heating doomsayers northern Europe should be heading back to the ice age, but that is another topic.

<font color = lightgreen> [img]graemlins/saywhat.gif[/img] You are much braver than I am! [img]graemlins/erm.gif[/img]

Don't forget that women still earn only 75% as much as men of the same position and level of employment, on average. That is a very bitter pill to swallow, and is one of life's confusing mysteries.</font>

<font color = lightgreen> [img]graemlins/saywhat.gif[/img] You are much braver than I am! [img]graemlins/erm.gif[/img]

Don't forget that women still earn only 75% as much as men of the same position and level of employment, on average. That is a very bitter pill to swallow, and is one of life's confusing mysteries.</font> </font>[/QUOTE]Not true... when all factors are considered (Hours worked per week, experience, job function) women make within a few percent of men (and different reports have it at + or -, but well within the noise in any event)

Sorry about your experience Belle, such instances justify a rant or two. I work in a company where your boss would get fired if it was established he acted in a sexist way. I suggest you go up the chain and log a complaint if you felt you were unfairly treated.

The gay guys I know get along just fine with women.

[ 09-09-2003, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

I could tell you some horror stories. Unfortunately, too many women are afraid to speak up for fear that they will lose their jobs that they desperately need and so they tolerate it. I worked in an office when I was in college where you had to go through the computer room to go the restroom. The guy in there would regular try to corner me for a kiss. I had one boss that talked to me about how all women that wore make-up and dressed nice were after men and postitutes in his opinion and me sitting right there with make-up on. I had the minister of a church I was playing for at the time proposition me and threaten to make trouble for me if I didn't "cooperate"---I resigned my position and found another.

It is a complex problem and there are no simple solutions. But, you will put up with alot of crap is you need the job and have no safety net.

I apologize, I didn't mean all men, I live with Azred and he is so not like my manager at all. So to all men who it doesn't appply, then I am sorry, but not for how I feel. And it is not so much the gay thing, they can be anyway they want, I dont' really care. People love who they love and that is my only view point on that. It is the fact that when I started to tell him my opinions I got cut off and the discussion was over. I still feel that women are looked at different when they do the same things that men do. Take for example, sleeping with multiple people, men do it, they are "the man" and women do it they are whores or nasty women. But that is another story. Thank you cloudbringer, I appreciate your words of encouragement and yes I do feel better after ranting to Azred for at least two hours and finally on here. I only hope Azred has ears
left after that much ranting and raving from me.
Belle (half of a much happier Azred)

Aww Belle, you're most welcome and I really do hope it helps! It really can help you feel better and get the worst of it out of your system! :D Heck, we created a rant zone at The Oasis just because sometimes a person needs to let off steam!

Oh my! LOL, I bet Azred's heard it all and then some! I SOOOOOO understand! My poor Nachtrafe has listened to me carry for ages about one thing or another that bothered me on more than one occasion! And you're right, there are men out there who don't play headgames or harbor ill will toward women in the workplace or anywhere else. Sure sounds like we have a pair! [img]smile.gif[/img]

I don't think its neccesarily woman hating probably more mangers just being jerks like they usually are. My manager now is cool, but the one I had before was fake and totally backstabbing. Its just the luck of the draw I guess, but its ridiculous that people like that are put into position of authority, is what I personally feel the main problem is.

Perhaps women should become sexist pigs and rule the world?

seriously though, I know alot of men like that, and unfortunatly, that is the way the were raised, my husband is one of them :( , e used to say that ALL women should be bearfoot and pregnant i front of the stove making supper, he has kinda gotten out of that now, but alot of men do not understand that women are the reason they are here in the first place :D

That statement is just as true the other way around. [img]smile.gif[/img]

We all tolerate much that we'd rather not... for the sake of our families or our future we put up with all kinds of BS at work and school. Our young college men are assaulted with constant anti-male propeganda, quite often government financed and propegated by teachers who are in a position to ruin their lives. Women Studies "programs" teach hate of all things male on one hand while creating "anti-hate" Speach Codes that eliminate the opportunity for rebuttal on the other.

Belle I think we all knew what you meant... and I think most of us have had bad managers at one time or another, it can make you want to scream. The thing to keep in mind regarding sexism in the workplace is that as more women occupy positions of authority we're getting more complaints about some of them being just as sexist as the sexist guys out there. IMO some people have no business being in positions of authority, be they male or female. When I was in highschool I was propositioned by two older women that were in positions of authority over me... but of course guys have been trained to think of that as flattering instead of threatening so I never thought anything of it (even though in both cases it'd have been rape by todays standards if I'd have complied).

It's sad to say but I tend to think it's human nature for those in power to exploit those without it... men or women.

Well, I took woman studies classes in college, and there was nothing in those classes that taught us to hate men at all. If that's the impression you got, than either there was a bad teacher or the person that told you that had their own prejudices to begin with and was able to turn what was taught into learning to "hate men" as you put it.
As to the women earning less than men, every study I've ever seen shows us earning less, so if you've seen different, please let me know where, if you can remember. Speaking as a woman, I know I'd be making about $10-15K more if I was male, I know this by seeing what all my male friends in the same positions are making compared to my salary. And, as a woman in her late 20s, it's difficult when I do need to find a job, because some horrid managers out there won't hire you (although they won't say it) because they think I'll leave when I have a kid. Yeah right, I spent all that time and money to become a computer programmer just to chuck it all when I have a family???
Not saying I don't have it easier than most, since I'm in a field where we're in high demand, just saying, there are some men (and even some women) in positions of authority out there who just don't think women are as capable and smart as men. I have men like that in the group I work in now. However, his manager is aware of this issue, and has been helpful in fixing it. Still, when working with him, he talks to me as if I'm a co-op instead of a programmer with 7+ years experience.

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
Prime example of why sex should be kept out of the business place, along with religion and politics...work is where BUSINESS should be done not friend making, or socializing....hehe [img]smile.gif[/img] just my [img]graemlins/twocents.gif[/img]
</font>

Well, I took woman studies classes in college, and there was nothing in those classes that taught us to hate men at all. If that's the impression you got, than either there was a bad teacher or the person that told you that had their own prejudices to begin with and was able to turn what was taught into learning to "hate men" as you put it.
As to the women earning less than men, every study I've ever seen shows us earning less, so if you've seen different, please let me know where, if you can remember.
</font>[/QUOTE]Hmm... let me think...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,45917,00.html
http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...we012802.shtml
http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...an040301.shtml
http://www.stls.frb.org/publications...c-backgnd.html
http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/hart090900.asp

I could probably come up with a few more but these will keep you busy for a while.

For an interesting discussion of Womens studies programs I suggest the Independant Womens Forum. These articles are a starting point:

http://www.iwf.org/pubs/exfemina/April2002i.shtml
http://www.glennjsacks.com/popular_womens_studies.htm
http://www.cnsnews.com/Culture/archi...20020515a.html
http://www.pacificresearch.org/pub/c..._01-12-12.html

I would guess that not ALL W.S. classes are problematic, but I would also suspect that most would never even associate the materials taught in such classes with sexism, because one of the things often taught is that only men ("the Patriarchy") can be sexist.

I also know women who think men aren't as capable... sexism is a two way street. My mother in law is a Dean at a university down south, earlier in her career (when she was a Director at a NYS University) she specifically excluded men from her team because she felt they were disruptive to the atmosphere... and she was quite unapolagetic about it. Back in the boom days for telecom I was involved in recruiting talent for my group (an engineering group of a F500 multinational) and I know for a fact that talented women and minorities were getting offers SIGNIFICANTLY higher than men with the same qualifications. I was told by a female grad at campus recruiting visit that she expected to get an offer that amounted to about 20% higher than the median starting for MSEE's... and I have no doubt she got it. I have no doubt that in these PC days for every female story of isolated discrimination (some guy thinks I can't do the job) there's an equivelant story of institutional discrimination against a guy (a less qualified woman was promoted over me to improve our manegerial diversity numbers).

[ 09-09-2003, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

There is only one kind of person that doesn't think women have rights - the North American Major League Asswipe.

Whackmiester, try and clean up the language before you hit that send button. Use a * or $ or two. ;)

Wow, well I didn't think that my rant would awaken so many feelins and opinions. I feel oh so special now, lol. I do have some interesting facts about the company me and Azred work for though. There are no women tm (territorial managers) that work for Sally's Beauty Supply. The handful of women dm's (district managers) and there are very few of them are judged very harshly. All the vp's are men and besides hr, all the minor positions such as secretary and such are filled by women. What do I think? I have cooled down about my situation, but I do still feel that women get the lower side of life sometimes just because of our gender. Let me remind you that women have a pain threshold nine times greater than a man. Women push babies out everyday, could a man? I doubt it? Not to mention period and all that comes along with them. So, we may get paid less, and get less respect, but I do think, no, I know, that we have some definite advantages over men, physical and mental. But for the record, I love Azred, specifically because he is a male. They (males) definitely have something us females can't live without, .....paychecks. What? Did you think I was going to say something else?
Belle (half of very happy Azred)

You want feelings and opinions then you should check out pages 2-8 of this topic!(ask Cloudbringer! LOL)

One could argue that the reason that the "minor" positions such as secretary are filled solely by women is that society(men and women!) makes fun of males in that role. Can you honestly say you would be proud to tell everyone that your boyfriend is a secretary? or seamster? Sure the lesser wage might be the biggest factor as to why men don't become secretaries but you can't say this isn't a factor.
It follows that if only women are in these "minor" roles then there will be less women available to pursue the management jobs and the average womens wage is going to be smaller than mens.
Men get the short end of the stick in other aspects of society which you would see if you were a guy and if the media wasn't so feminist controlled.
I really hate it when women play the pregnancy/child birth card. "Oh the pain!" If I could "pump" out babies I would do it without hesitation even without a so called nine times pain threshold (which I don't believe)! The fact is women ARE the ones who have the children. It's not my fault!
I would feel so much more sorry for you if I didn't believe you completely ignored Thorans post.
The fact is all you are doing is ranting and I don't want to hear your male bashing! I once yelled at a boss of mine who made sexist comments and I once had a boss who slapped his girlfriends and almost fed him a fist sandwich! Do something about it or quit your ranting.

Read my post again, Thoran, I did say that there are woman who think that other woman are not capable. I never made it a black and white issue, I simply was saying that the fact that there are problems is not a myth.

Yes you did... you hit two of the four possible permutations.
"Men think women not as capable."
"Women think women not as capable."

I added another:
"Women think men not as capable." - it's happening more and more these days,
and I didn't add the final category "men think men not as capable" because while it does happen I'm willing to admit it doesn't happen as often (of course you could say the same of "women think women not as capable")

I also was not saying the issue was black and white, I was saying that the problems go both directions.

[ 09-10-2003, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

If what you say is true regarding your company than they are in danger of being sued... because discrimination against women is illegal. Our government has gone out of it's way to establish reams of law intended to protect women as they gain an equal footing in the workplace. I think that on the whole this legislation was necessary to break down the barriars to entry for women in the workplace, but now I feel it's time for women to stop complaining if things aren't going their way and DO something about it... the law is on your side and if your case has merit no doubt LOTS of civil rights lawyers will JUMP at the opportunity to stick it to big business.

They (females) definitely have something us men can't live without, ....???.... Hmm... let me think.... ahhh... no not that... umm... jeeze there must be something...

(ps.. I know you were joking, as am I... I've been with my wife for 10 years and while it's been tough, mutual reliance and respect has been the key to our survival)

[ 09-10-2003, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

Those links weren't all statistics, maybe half and half. There were a number of opinion pieces, written by both men and women. The reason I posted the links in the first place was based on a request for rebuttal information from Belle based on her knowledge of articles claiming a wage gap. Since the whole wage gap myth is based on statistical manipulations it's virtually impossible to rebut without looking into the numbers.

I'm not accusing you guys (it appears you have the same misconceptions regarding gender that most americans have) but "dodging the numbers" is a pretty common feminist practice. They'll make an insane statement like "every 12 seconds a woman is assaulted by her intimate partner" but when you point out that the study used for that reference states in the next line that men are assaulted at the same rate by intimate partners they'll come back with "well we're not interested in the numbers or keeping score". The problem with this is it allows them to paint a distorted picture of the issues surrounding gender in the country, and that picture IS having a negative effect on our male children and reinforcing common (and false) beliefs, like the idea that workplace discrimination is a one-sided problem.

You ask why anchors are men if the media isn't sexist... I'd suggest that it's not the sex of the person doing the reporting... it's WHAT'S being reported. A woman runs over her husband with her child in the car and the media is sympathetic, if a man had been driving the car do you think we'd have had a petition going around to set him free? Watch mainstream media and it's painfully obvious that there's an anti-male bias permeating every facet of it. Count the number of times a man is assaulted on prime-time sit-coms... punched, kicked in the groin (for laughs.. ha ha), etc, then count the number of times a male character is portrayed as a buffoon, idiot, abusive, incompetent, etc. Even better yet... try to find a man who is portrayed as a strong masculine role model in an sit-com, tough job there. This bias is pervasive and one sided, women are very rarely portrayed in such a negative light, I'd love to see a reference to the last time a woman was punched in the breast for laughs.

[ 09-10-2003, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

You know what you can do with that hand right? I do think she has ignored his post. She starts by continuing how bad the men are at her work and then bashes men and then finally patronizes(something you have in common) them just to feel better about herself. She basically did what she was complaining men do and you think I shouldn't take offense?
I think she can speak for herself.
Normally I'm a much nicer and calmer person. I must be in a bad mood or something. Anyway I have no intention of making this a marathon thread. She had her rant and now I guess I've had mine.

<font color = lightgreen>For Thoran, I agree that there is a continuing trend to skew certain statistics against men (wage gap, abuse gap, etc), which is what makes Statistics simultaneously fun and meaningless. <font color = red>She</font> doesn't care too much for numbers or articles or such, just relaying what she had been personally experiencing vis-a-vis attitudes towards women. The typical woman in our town has at least 3 children (usually 2 of them are age 4 or younger) and 1 on the way [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img] , stays at home most of the day--when she isn't shopping, and doesn't work; hence, the attitude of their husbands is, to put it mildly, archaic. They expect her not to work and have a litter, and this attitude comes out in their general behavior. <font color = red>She</font> didn't mean to rant at any specific male (that is my job, thank you very much [img]tongue.gif[/img] ).

For IAmThumper...Azred pats you on your head. [img]graemlins/laugh3.gif[/img]
On the one hand, <font color = red>Belle</font> doesn't have to explain herself to you; on the other hand, she doesn't patronize others to feel better.
<font color = red>She</font> does speak for herself (when I let her [img]tongue.gif[/img] oh, I'll pay for that comment); she simply chose not to respond personally.
Everyone has bad days and bad moods...don't take things so personally. We never do. [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img] </font>

*SMACK!*

*Glare*

[img]tongue.gif[/img]

Statistics are fun, especially when it comes to digging up the angle that has been applied to make them look a certain way... really they're just sound bites meant for the general populace, and many people swallow a "every 12 second" hyserical comment without a belch. If that was the end of it I wouldn't care, but it's those same people who go to the polls and vote for candidates who support VAWA (the Violence against Women Act), one of the most bigoted pieces of legislation we've seen in 120 years. Now we have women yelling about a nonexistant wage gap, and they're trying to push legislation that is in effect one more ENTITLEMENT for women... to cure a problem that doesn't exist. The only coverage you see in the media is constant repetion of one side with nary a rebuttal (except maybe at fox).

There may be a lot of small towns out there who follow the traditional model, but there's already a ton of law from on high that makes acting on one's opinions illegal. Additionally there's a constant barrage of media that's working opposite to that attitude. My wife stays at home (a mutual decision that our kids were never going to see daycare) and if anything people bug her about why she isn't working (and we live in a relatively small town).

Anyway... I'll get off my soapbox (again [img]smile.gif[/img] )... but I think part of the problem western countries are having is that men don't normally push back against the more and more unreasonable demands of the radical feminists (not claiming anyone here is a radfem btw, just that they're setting the agenda... a truly scarry concept). When there's no dissenting opinion people just accept that what's being said must have merit. I've decided that I don't want my boys growing up and moving into a world where everyone has state legislated advantages over them, and IMO every parent out there with boys should be doing the same.