<font color=lime>Karoake, how is it pronounced? The proper way. It drives me nuts how everyone says "Karyoake". Isnt it just
Karoake? I tried searching for the pronunciation on the web, but to no avail... </font>

Actually i think its like this KarIOake

<font color=lime>Why, the E sound? </font>

i dunno its the thing i heard

ask ur Gibberlings maybe they now [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]

Main Entry: kar·a·o·ke
Pronunciation: "kar-E-'O-kE, k&-'rO-kE, "kä-rä-'O-(")kA
Function: noun
Etymology: Japanese, from kara empty + Oke, short for Okesutora orchestra
Date: 1981
: a device that plays instrumental accompaniments for a selection of songs to which the user sings along and that records the user's singing with the music

OK, when you borrow "foreign" words and try to incorporate them into English you run into problems, particularly when you try to "anglicize" a word that does not have an alphabet as we know it. So, you try to replicate a spellaing of a Japanese word from the original Japanese "kan-ji" (or is iit Kan-gi). Then you have to pronounce the word as close to how it is pronounced in the original language.

My understanding is that spelling is only an approximation of the spoken word and that the spoken word takes precidence.

I hope that Bardan will correct me if I am wrong on this.

Kariokee I think it is...

It's Karaoke, original Japanese. :D

While we're on the subject of nitpicking, I believe it's actually spelled "karaoke". ;)

But on the subject of how to pronounce it...
*grabs his Longman Pronunciation Dictionary*

(as I've got no idea on how to reproduce the phonetic symbols for English, I'll just try to explain it the long way ;) )
The first "a" is similarly pronounced as the a in bad and trap; the second "a" is actually pronounced like the y in happy and the first i in radiation. The "o" is pronounced like the o in no, the oa in goat and the ow in show. The final "e" is pronounced the same way as the second "a" was pronounced. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 06-15-2003, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

It drives me nuts when people admonish others on how to properly pronounce a word that they cannot spell properly ;)

Also, Reeka is right. Language is primarily a phenomenon that manifests itself in spoken forms - give precedence to the pronunciation, not the spelling. Don't complain that people do not say the word as it is spelled. Complain that the word is not spelled as it is pronounced.

In any case, people are too hung up on correct pronunciation. We use language for communication, and as long as that is achieved, there is no problem. There are plenty of words that have alternative pronunciations. Tom-ay-to, tom-ah-to. Is one the proper pronunciation, and the other improper? Not at all. We simply have two accepted tokens that both represent the same concept - a tomato. Karaoke is the same. We have 3 tokens that all represent the concept of Karaoke. One is not correct, and the others incorrect. They are all correct because they are all understood as representing the concept.

This is repeated all over the language. Anyone who tries to tell you that there is a proper method of pronunciation that is correct, and any deviations are incorrect, is just a fool.

If you wanna pronounce it the way it should be pronounced, then the way we Dutch say it comes closer to the real thing. It's a japanese word, and they pronounce it almost exactly like we do. The English pronounciation doesn't even come close to that. Stupid peasants. :D

While we're on the subject of nitpicking, is "consciencious" even a word? I thought it was spelled "conscientious", and I'm just wondering why someone would even bother using big words when they don't know how to spell them correctly. [img]tongue.gif[/img] ;)
My dictionary denies the correctness or even the existence of "consciencious", but when I perform a google-search on the word, I actually still get 14,800 (!) results. Is it just spelled differently in the US then, or is it really that often mis-spelled, relatively speaking? :confused:

[ 06-15-2003, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

It drives me nuts when people admonish others on how to properly pronounce a word that they cannot spell properly ;)

Also, Reeka is right. Language is primarily a phenomenon that manifests itself in spoken forms - give precedence to the pronunciation, not the spelling. Don't complain that people do not say the word as it is spelled. Complain that the word is not spelled as it is pronounced.

In any case, people are too hung up on correct pronunciation. We use language for communication, and as long as that is achieved, there is no problem. There are plenty of words that have alternative pronunciations. Tom-ay-to, tom-ah-to. Is one the proper pronunciation, and the other improper? Not at all. We simply have two accepted tokens that both represent the same concept - a tomato. Karaoke is the same. We have 3 tokens that all represent the concept of Karaoke. One is not correct, and the others incorrect. They are all correct because they are all understood as representing the concept.

This is repeated all over the language. Anyone who tries to tell you that there is a proper method of pronunciation that is correct, and any deviations are incorrect, is just a fool. </font>[/QUOTE]<font color=lime>Well alrighty then. Thank you for correcting me. And sorry about the misspelling. </font>

Firstly, a word does not have to be contained in a normative document such as a dictionary to be defined as a word. The presence or abscence of any word from any dictionary is not a cast-iron deciding factor [img]smile.gif[/img]

Secondly, yes - that word is often 'misspelled'. It's quite a common occurrence in words containing a "sh" sound that a native speaker will be unsure about the exact combination of letters used. That's the way it is in England, anyway. I don't know about a 'US spelling'.

Thirdly, back to dictionaries - Again I have to stress that they are not the be-all and end-all of definitions. Ask any native English speaker what the word "livid" means, and 95% of them will give you a definition along the lines of "terribly angry". Ask them to describe a livid person and they will describe someone whose face is flushed with rage and anger. What do dictionaries say about livid? That it means "pale faced with anger."

So what does livid mean? Anyone who subscribed to the "dictionaries are always right" line of thought would tell you that "pale faced with anger" is correct (or if an American dictionary ahs a different definition, then whatever that is). Anyone who is actually concerned with the usage of a word would tell you that livid means what speakers use it to mean. This, of course, is just one example amongst thousands.

I used to think of dictionaries as being a final arbiter of correctness too, but my education, far from confirming that in my mind, actually turned me completely around. Now I see dictionaries as being far less important than I ever would have thought 10 years ago.

Oh, and another point - in spite of the fact she spelled it incorrectly, you still understood what she meant. This does not invalidate her use of the word. rather it confirms that preceise spellings and pronunciations are of far less importance than we would deem, as the primary use of language - effective communication - was achieved successfully. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I did correct it. I know everyone undertood what I meant. Actually, I was a bit ambivalent about it when I wrote it--the "sh" sound is so variable in its writen interpretation. Just for the rocord, do you consider "conscientous" a big word? ;)

The Dutch equivalent "consciëntieus" certainly is... A few years ago during a National Dictation on TV, it was one of the most often misspelled words of all; most people managed to make up to three mistakes in only one single word. Don't really know anyone in the Netherlands who would actually use it in normal conversation, either (well, except perhaps for Drs. P - long story ;) ).
Haven't seen it being used that often either in English, but perhaps I'm just not paying enough attention to really notice it. I'm not a native English speaker, anyways.
And you were able to edit it? Ah! Wasn't aware Ziroc disabled the time limit of the edit function. Good news, in my opinion. [img]smile.gif[/img]

And Bardan, thanks for the explanation! Though don't tell me there aren't any spelling errors which don't make your blood boil or at least make you scream out in helpless frustration; I can't imagine you'd make a similar plea for every single one of the spelling errors you come across, even when the meaning *is* perfectly clear. ;)

[ 06-15-2003, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]