I just want to know if we Americans are a curiosity or not. For those who do not know what I am talking about, we "pledge allegiance to the American flag" at various events. It is common at sporting events and other types of gatherings. Children in school used to (they may still) do it at the start of every school day. You put your right hand over your heart and repeat the following:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the repubic for which it stands: one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

(I don't know if I got the punctuation all correct.) Anyway, are we alone in having something like this. Also, what do you think about this? Nice, antiquated, rampant patriotism, nationalism, brings tears to your eyes? Remember, keep it nice. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 06-09-2003, 09:34 PM: Message edited by: Reeka ]

I think it looks a little like rasicm, no offence but u pledge to ur flag and I mean we don't here in Sweden we don't even care about our national day and we aint religious and stuff. You might be very religious in America but I mean pledge to the flag is too much, sounds like ur the best country and you'll crush the one that talk about u bad. Well this is just my opinion and I'm a non-religios swed [img]tongue.gif[/img] ...well sorry if I was rude or anything but I just say what I thought.

Yea, I live in Sweden, though I'm not a Swede, but my boyfriend is. He said that in Sweden they used to sing the anthem at the end of the school year, but then they stopped because the anthem has such a bad "reputation" about it. For those that don't know, the Swedish anthem has been "kidnapped" by the Swedish nazis, so some people associate the anthem with them. And that's why they stopped that, I think.

But, no, not even in Slovenia (where I'm from) do we have a pledge of allegiance. I don't even remember singing the anthem in school, except on special occasions (like concerts... but then the music class would sing it). So, hmm, not in schools, no. [img]smile.gif[/img] And I wouldn't want it like that either. I mean, it's nice to know things about your country, and to be proud of where you come from... and that's it. I care more about where I come from and I don't equate "where I come from" with my country, but with my culture and family. And that, I think, is something that I can be proud of - or respect to put it like that. [img]smile.gif[/img]

But I, also, think that pledging allegiance like that looks more like a religion to me, and it seems, in a way, to stress that "my country is better than any other country" and because of that I am against it. [img]tongue.gif[/img] but you may disagree with me. :D

<font color='white'> How is it interpreted as 'my country is better than your country'??

All you are doing is pledging your allegiance to your flag, nothing more, nothing less.

Hmm, two posts about the American flag in one day. </font>

[ 06-10-2003, 05:20 AM: Message edited by: Iron_Ranger ]

Dunno, that's just the association I get with it. [img]smile.gif[/img] It's just my opinion. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

PS: Ah, sorry, I guess it's because those kinds of things often get taken by nazis, so that's why I don't like it. (I'd post this before but the forum didn't work [img]tongue.gif[/img] ).

[ 06-10-2003, 06:14 AM: Message edited by: Spelca ]

Well as been already answered Sweden doesn't have a Pledge of Allegiance.

I've always wondered what the Pledge stand for, is it the same as absolute loyalty and that you're vow to die for your country or is it only a way to recognice and respect it? If it's the first one then school kids shouldn't be allow to do the Pledge as they don't completely understand what loyalty is.

What I think about it?... Well that depends on exactly who it is that does it. Soldiers: OK...Children: seems a bit militaristic to me.

[ 06-10-2003, 05:21 AM: Message edited by: Stratos ]

I don’t think that Britain has one, however MP’s have to swear allegiance to the queen and I consider that anti-democratic and not compatible with a supposedly democratic society.

However, given that the current governments of most nations seem to have no popular support ,(for example the British government was elected only by a majority of people who voted, but a majority of people DID NOT VOTE anyway) thus the government lacks popular support and legitimacy, The same thing happens in America (the less said about the supreme courts president making the better) and the rest Europe due to voter apathy et al, I do not consider pledges or oaths or anything like that a desirable thing to engage in.

It’s an inherently authoritarian act anyway, to demand you swear loyalty and die for your country et al, I wouldn’t be prepared to die so that Rupert murdoch could carry on going having weekly meetings with Tony blair.

[ 06-10-2003, 05:44 AM: Message edited by: Eisenschwarz ]

Hm.. such a thing sounds more symbolic then anything else. To answer Reeka's question; I don't think we have such a thing in The Netherlands. Though most of the people I know are quite proud to be Dutch [img]smile.gif[/img] Even the rich... after they move to Belgium to dodge the massive taxes on high wages while still sending their kids to Dutch schools... sorry, not the right topic for such a rant ;)

[ 06-10-2003, 06:17 AM: Message edited by: Dreamer128 ]

definitely nothing like this in Austria
National Day is a day off ... nothing more, nothing less.
Well they put our ridiculous armed forces on display but that's about it

How can that pledge seem like racism? What about it appears to discriminate against anyone based on their race?

Saying the pledge is a voluntary act. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 06-10-2003, 06:35 AM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

Saying the pledge is a voluntary act. </font>[/QUOTE]Okay, it is a voluntary act, but do people look at you in a strange way if you don't do it? How about kids in school? I bet children in school who wouldn't want to do it would get looked at strangely. So it may be voluntary, but not like that...

To the best of my knowledge no public schools even say the pledge everyday anymore.

Sure some people look at people funny at a ballgame if they don't stand and say the pledge, but some people sit through it drinking beer looking at the people who are standing and saying the pledge as if they're something wrong with them. People sit, chat, buy soda, go to the bathroom, and many other things instead of saying the pledge. Big Brother isn't looking and taking names. ;) [img]smile.gif[/img]

To me the US Pledge is our pledge to one another, not to a specific leader or party. The pledge has been around for over a dozen presidents because it isn't to a pledge to one man or one party, it's a pledge to an idea.

On another note; wasn't the original pledge of allegiance "I pledge allegience to my flag, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisiable, with liberty and justice for all."? I think they originally intended to include equality as well, but left it out due to racial issues back then.

No, we don't have that here, and our national anthem is not so popular too i'm afraid.

Nope, even the chairman of the 'Oranje vereniging' didn't know it ;)

Nope, even the chairman of the 'Oranje vereniging' didn't know it ;) </font>[/QUOTE]I only know the first few lines, and that's enough to turn my back on it. All that crap about honoring the Spanish king.... we had a war that lasted 80 years with that king. :D

<font color=orange>I believe you are correct... not totally sure though, but it was something like that. God wasn't thrown in until the 1950's. There was actually a big dispute over the "One nation under God" phrase here not long ago. An atheist went to court to stop the recitation of the Pledge in schools. He said that it infringed on his daughter's right to freedom of religion. He initally won in a three judge ruling of the 10th Circuit Court (could be wrong about that, not a Lawyer you know (gets down on his knees and thanks God!) Sorry TL, but I have to work in this building with a ton of them and for the most part their a pretty snotty bunch), but I think the full Circuit threw it out. I might add that his Ex-wife was quite miffed about his actions. Personally, being a Christian, I'd just a soon go back to the old pledge. While I believe in God and I'm quite welling to witness for him, it's still everyones choice as to believe or not, and I'm not willing to force him on anyone that doesn't want him.</font>

Saying the pledge is a voluntary act. [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>[/QUOTE]In theory Ronn. Just try to make a point by not saying it when everyone else is. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I live in England, and I have no idea whether we have one! ;)

Canada does have a pledge of alliegeance... to the Queen of Canada {read England). However, that practice is totally "OUT". To my knowledge, only members of parliament, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the Military still say the pledge.... I almost forgot that immigrants also have to say a pledge. But I think that one is to Canada, not to the Queen.

I personnally think that a national pledge (not a pledge to a foreign monarch) is a good thing. If anything, it strenghtens national pride. However, one must be carefull that national pride doesn't become national arrogance.

Nice point Ryanamur! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

That's not the point I want to make though. :D

Really, it's not just voluntary in theory. It is voluntary in everyday practice as well. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I know some people think I'm a rabid Republican, while others think I'm a rabid American, and some even think I'm just rabid, but the truth is, I've skipped the pledge on more than one public occasion, especially when I was younger and cared nothing for what it meant. No one is forced to do it, it is voluntary, completely voluntary, and the people who don't do it are not stoned or even spit upon by normal Americans. Don't believe the hype. ;) :D

Can a news story be found were some lunatics acted out against someone who didn't participate in the pledge? Of course, but is that the norm? Absolutely not. ;) [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 06-10-2003, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

Australia probably has something similar to Canada's pledge to the Queen, but I've never heard of one. We have two verses to our anthem but many Aussies struggle to get through the one verse that is usually sung.

But come any sporting event where there's even a whiff of an Aussie, and I reckon we'd give Americans a run for their money in the national pride stakes...

well, we (specially the young) used to get pumped full of political and patriotic sh** in the 'old days' in the former Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia; singing patriotic songs at celebrations and commemorations, national holidays, special occasions, taking vows, honoring the 'beloved' (dead) leader... blah blah blah, just a load of crap. luckily those days are now in the past and i doubt public opinion would allow any such habits to be reinstated any time soon [img]smile.gif[/img] . obviously though, my personal opinion on such matters is rather negative, also because i'm not much into nationalism and patriotism anyway.

We tend to steer clear of institutionalised brainwashing in the UK ;)

I was too young then so I really don't remember much of that. I was in the last generation of "pionircki", so there were only a couple of instances of that. But, yea, from what I *do* remember, all of that was way too much. I mean, these people were like gods to us - don't you dare say anything against them, because if you do you're a traitor! So I guess that's also why I wouldn't like to have the whole pledging thing... I'm just afraid it would lead to something like that again... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

<FONT COLOR=ORANGE>We don't really have to worry about stuff like that in the US though. Since we have elections every 4 year, no one group ever has power for very long. There is always a dis-affected group as well. When Bill "got a cigar think I'll stick it here" Clinton was in power, all the Republicans were rabid dogs who couldn't wait to get rid of him. Now that Dubya is the head cheese the Democrats are foaming at the mouth. So we go back and forth. Don't like the present system wait 4 to 12 years and the other group will be in power and the country will swing the other way. To me that's the real checks and balances in our government.

Most Americans don't think of the government, one party or a person when they say the Pledge of Allegience, but of the Country. I think that's the difference between what you all experienced in Yugoslavia (did I spell that right?) or anywhere else and the US. </font>

I thought they gave that up years ago. Apparently not then. As Ryanamur stated we don't pledge our allegiance to anything besides our favorite hockey team up here. [img]graemlins/blueblink.gif[/img]

Since I still don't understand the American fascination with a piece of cloth I have no understanding of the pledge of allegiance as well. ;) Why not pledge to the country instead? Of course I guess that is implied huh. :D

I pledge allegience to the Vancouver Canucks, and to the dream of the Stanley Cup for which they stand, one hockey team, indivisiable, with goals and assists for all. :D

Actually there arn't really any checks anymore, The democrats and the republicans are both now so compromised with big business et al, that there is no real practical difference.
For example if you look at Hillary Clinton, She made the accusation of there being a vast right wing conspiracy.
Now, have you noticed how she was reluctant to name names or give much detail at all?
Why would she do this?
Because Of course the democrats had compromised themselves with the very same right wing forces, which sought to dethrone bill.
(Examine how Bush’s current policies are literally a simple extension and continuation in many areas of Clintons)
So in that way, The Clinton thing was an internal conflict between the ruling classes.

And there is no real choice in the end.
(which explains the falling levels of voter participation in America and all over the western world)

I luv how the states is basically a 2-party (and depending who you talk to 1-party) system

and I don't recall ever saying a pledge to the queen we I was going to school (up here in alberta) but I do remember a time when we had to sing O Canada. then they stopped just before I got into junior high and then started up again in grade 12, but it ticked me off then xause I'd always be rushing to class and they'd play it and the vice-principal would make me stand in the hall until it's over, thus making me 2 seconds late for class where my physics teacher would promptly lock me out. trying to teach me a lesson, well I didn't learn a thing! [img]smile.gif[/img]


PS: YAY Netherlands!!! I'm proud to be a dutch canadian and do hope to get my citizenship (my dad was born in the Hague)

wow I can't seem to type huh?

I remember one time in grade 7 a bunch of kids, myself included, didn't want to sing O Canada along with the rest of the kids in my school during an assembly. The principal made the lot of us stand with our noses up against the gymnasium wall for the duration of said assembly.

edit> and one time.. in band camp.. :D

[ 06-11-2003, 02:05 AM: Message edited by: Djinn Raffo ]

how cheesy is this, we used to have to sing the school song at every asembly until I was 10. it was some messed up version of "this is our world afterall". gawd, they couldn't have picked a more annoying song??? there were had movements and everything.

I never song my national song, and never saw anyone else sing it, but I saw part of it on tv and it look like an interesting song. I'll have to look at it one day.

What do I think about the American pledge? It's brainwashing. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

So, those that don't do it are not normal americans? So this mean you don't have to d it, but if you don't, you're not a real american?

Aha! One of my colleagues at work said "It's a shame that we're british. In Ireland, Scotland and Wales you can be proud to be Irish, Scottish or Welsh. But here in England if you're proud to be English then you're seen as a bit of an idiot."

I agree with her. [img]smile.gif[/img]

If american people accept it, go ahead. [img]smile.gif[/img] Personally, I oppose nationalism because I´m a hippie who would like "the world to live as one"... but there are certain moments in every country´s history that you have to appreciate. For us finns, it´s the WW2 and how thousands of men were killed while defending our country from Russians. Without them, we´d míght belong to Russia now.

I don´t claim to know the most deepest reasons for US people to cheer the flag so much.. as far as I know, nothing has never REALLY threatened the existance of the USA. Therefore I suspect the reasons are simply psychological.

I agree with you NiceWorg. I wish the world would live as one country, and that's what the EU is trying to do I think. By introducing a continent-wide currency they're trying to merge us into one country I believe. Eventually Europe will be a country and not a continent, with one government and one set of laws.....

Then eventually Europe will merge with other countries, until we are one world. With the continent-wide currency I can see it happening......

So, those that don't do it are not normal americans? So this mean you don't have to d it, but if you don't, you're not a real american? </font>[/QUOTE]Touche Luvian! :D Bwahahaha! Let's see if Ronn can squirm himself ou tof this one. [img]graemlins/evillaughter2.gif[/img]

As for singing the national anthem I see no problem with not take part in the singing. I usally do out of tradition. I also think one always should stand up when a national anthem is played, be it the American or the Iraqi. ;) That's just proper respect.