Congress today is discussing a bill that would ban flag burning. You just knew there had to be some old Repug sitting there just waiting for the next wave of patriotism to sweep the country so he could try to nudge in this nugget of nationalism.

Patriotism is fine, but be wary of nationalism. We all know what nationalism in government can lead to. Proud to be a nation is one thing. Considering something that speaks against the nation as heresy is another, as it tend to diefy the nation.

I always say that banning flag burning is not the answer, as it is clearly unconstituional, but punching the flag-burner in the nose is. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I think if a country is going to ban flag burning than it should legalize pie throwing as a way of protest. I am sure there is more than one politician that deserves pie. Pie throwing is usually considered assault and you can do jail time for it.

I agree with Attalus.

I never really understood why flag burning is considered an atrocity. It is after all a piece of cloth and some people have way too much time on their hands. They know you will react and therefore they do it. Should everyone suddenly start to ignore flag burning this would no longer be an issue. ;) Now burning straw figurines of leaders is another thing. ;)

I like pritschkes idea! I know several hospital board members that could use a pie. :D

[ 06-03-2003, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: WillowIX ]

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
I agree with Attyboy [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>

<font color="gold">Not long ago, just after the war with Iraq had started, a Norwegian comedian was sued for burning the American flag in a live comedy show. The funny thing is, if he had done it in America, nothing would've happened. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

So anyway, I am totally against this law-suggestion. It is completely unnecessary, cause as Willow said, it is just a piece of cloth. But who am I to speak, as it's already is forbidden in Norway. ;) </font>

Well... the flag is the symbol which represents a country/state/orginazation. Burning the flag is a symbolic gesture that you want to set the country/state/organization to flame. Sort of anyway, I am not a flag burner and I could only guess the true motive.

But if a person took your picture and burn it in front of you, would you be pissed off? I think most of us will. That is why flag burning is seen as a grave insult to the recipient.

[ 06-03-2003, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Paladin2000 ]

Of course the real irony in a flag burning ban is that burning is the only approved method of destroying a worn out flag...

Nice post about nationalism TL [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] - but like me, you have probably predicted the responses and the respondees - I managed to before I started into them [img]smile.gif[/img] .

I am not a supporter of flag burning, but I am even less a supporter of nationalism. At least the former can be included in the Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy as "Mostly Harmless".

I never really understood why flag burning is considered an atrocity. It is after all a piece of cloth and some people have way too much time on their hands. They know you will react and therefore they do it. Should everyone suddenly start to ignore flag burning this would no longer be an issue. ;) Now burning straw figurines of leaders is another thing. ;)

I like pritschkes idea! I know several hospital board members that could use a pie. :D </font>[/QUOTE]For some reason, many Americans have a profound attachment to their flag - they seem to think it represents everything the country was intended to be - a bastion of freedom. It's completely beyond me (and inhabitants of virtually any other country, by the looks of it) why a piece of cloth should be imbued with such symbolism, but no doubt many would say thwe same of the UK and the Monarchy.

Each to his own, i guess.

On the matter of making it illegal? I tend to agree with TL and the others. I mean, what's next? Anyone who says "America stinks!" on the street is arrested? It's a little too paranoid-seeming to me.

Really? Comparing the burning of a picture with falg burning isn't really the same you know (see what I posted above). ;) One is a personal threat whereas the other, well according to your post, is a threat to a country? So instead of showing military strength all one has to do is burn a flag. But if it is as you stated, how come especially Americans find it so offensive? ;) I mean I wouldn't react the least if someone decided to burn our flag. Well I would react of course. What a complete waste of money. ;)

<font color = lightgreen>Those who wish to ban flag-burning have failed to separate the symbol from what it represents. A flag is just a piece of cloth; burning it doesn't harm what America means (or what it should mean) in any way. This is animism at its finest....

On the other hand, they'll probably get the votes to pass the measure. Oh, well....</font>

I can see where the symbolism of the Flag fails to stir comprehension for nonAmericans. But, Old Glory is not just a symbol of the US. In every feature of it is tied the symbolism of the very ideals that this nation was founded on and those that died to create it. I admit, it's a very abstract concept, but then, the ideals that founded the country are abstract.

While I do find burning offensive, I don't think it should be illegal. Timber's probably right, some Repug tucked away waiting for the right moment.

I cant see the problem, shares in the ACME flag making company must go through the roof whenever there's a war.

Well, to take off from this point, it is interesting that burning the flag is a constitutional right but advocating overthrow of the government is a felony in Chicago.

Me, I'm all for overthrowing the government. Now. Today. Give me my gun. See, that's about 4 technical felonies right there. [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img]

Actually, I'm just joking. ;)
(he said to cover his ass)

Or at least an SEP. [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img]

<font color = lightgreen>I must respectfully disagree. A statue of Christ is not Christ, just like a flag is not America. The flag may stand for America, but it is not the same thing as America. This is what I mean by "separating the symbol from the message". Burning a symbol cannot destroy the message (just read some Joseph Campbell); the message is important...the symbol is not.</font>

A flag is a totem and a symbol. A totem is a mundane object that is elevated in importance and infused with symbolism to hearken back and recall a time when the group felt a collective effervesence upon experiencing a moment of liminality. A flag is exactly like the cross. At least, that's what Emile Durkheim would say.

Oh, and all flags have a lot of symbolism in them. So, the US flag isn't distinguishible in that way. Not really.

<font color = lightgreen>Ah. A small clash of philosophical perspectives, I see. Oh, well...these things are bound to happen every now and then.

Well, don't let me continue to derail the thread. I still think the time isn't right (or they just won't have the votes) to ban burning the leitmotif of America, at least from a Constitutional point of view. They could make it a Federal offense, though. </font>

[ 06-03-2003, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: Azred ]

Does not compute. Syntax error?? Making it a federal offense *is* banning it, isn't it? [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img] Maybe I misunderstand what you're saying.

So is choking someone with your barehands. Unless of course you happen to be a certain Prime Minister from a certain nation north of the US border. :D :D

You mean Quebec? :D

Does not compute. Syntax error?? Making it a federal offense *is* banning it, isn't it? [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img] Maybe I misunderstand what you're saying.</font>[/QUOTE]<font color = lightgreen>I sometimes have that effect. I mean they wouldn't be able to create a Constitutional ban, only a normal one.

Did that help? [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img] </font>

You mean Quebec? :D </font>[/QUOTE]Don't you mean Canada? [img]tongue.gif[/img] :D

I thought we annexed the rest of Canuckistan.

Nope, Chretien would choke the living shite outta Bush. A lotta things can be said about Chretien, but he's not afraid to mix it up with a few rednecks if need be. :D :D

Please don't remind me he is going to be re-elected. Although I was bar in the middle America States, I see what is going on in the Federal Govt and will not continue to stay silent.
I have claws you know!!

It is a symbolic gesture to insult upon the recipient, not a sign of threat. It is a little abstract and I am sorry that I am unable to elaborate more.

It is true that some people do not think much of it (flag burning) but some people do that it very seriously.

As far as I can make out getting upset about someone burning your country's flag is an American thing. I couldn't give a toss if someone burns the Union Flag.

If you think about it, the flag burner just wants to make you angry anyway and he is succeeding.

This seems to be the general sentiment outside of the USA.

Paladin, if I were to burn a picture of you in front of your face I am not making a statement.

As for the flag representing what the US stands for. I still can't grasp that concept. After all the flag represents what YOU wish it to represent. Your thoughts, your pride, your beliefs and your prejudices. ;) Therefore I believe that you, the American people, represent what America stands for. [img]smile.gif[/img]

You nailed that one! [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

I think you summed it up nicely. The act of flag burning is intended as an insult, and so, for many, it is insulting. ;) [img]smile.gif[/img]

Just for the record, sign me up for the "I don't like flag burning, but a ban against it is over the top" group. Also sign me up for Attalus' "nose punching" group! [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

You nailed that one! [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img] </font>[/QUOTE]Ironically, I have that exact situation. (OK, I'll stop calling you Ironically) 2 1/2 years ago, I put a flag on my car with a promise that it would not come down until Bin Laden & Al Qaida were brought to justice. Today, most of the stripes are worn down to within an inch of the blue field of white stars.

Given that the Bin Laden is all but forgotten as we chase Saddam, I guess its time to take it down. It actually seems a shame to destroy it though; its battle scarred look gives it a certain dignity.

I'm with Atty too, it shouldn't be illegal, just don't do it in front of me. I have some pride in where I'm from, but I don't think that making flag burning illegal will do anything to bolster how I feel about my country. It is a symbol, and as such, it deserves respect, but since respect is earned, maybe some people don't respect it as much as I. That's on them. Ofcourse, freedom of expression is rapidly going out the window any here, so what difference does it make. Nice point on the Nationalism too, I'll bet flag burning was punishable by death in Nazi Germany.

You nailed that one! [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img] </font>[/QUOTE]The big difference is the amount of respect the flag is shown when it it burned, I would take an extreme amount of offense if someone burned the flag I spent nearly 5 years defending. Maybe I am unable to seperate the symbolism of the flag from the men and women who gave their lives to see it raised, names like Iwo Jima, the Ardennes, etc etc etc, and my own experience serving make me see it as more than a symbol of a country, it's a symbol that reminds me of the patriots, soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines who gave their all to see it brought about in the first place, as well as those who defend it today. I know that it's also a relatively American idea to place the kind of emphasis on our flag as we do, but perhaps it's an attitude the world would be better off having more of.

I don't think the bill will pass, or if it does the supreme court would shoot it down.

For a flag yes, but other countries have this sort of symbolism problem. For instance in Thailand it is a very grave offense to disrepect a picture of the King (not Elvis, the King of Thailand [img]tongue.gif[/img] ). Both legally and in a personally safety sense

I thought so too but apparently not... an independent has just introduced a private member's bill into our state parliament banning flag burning [img]graemlins/uhoh1.gif[/img] . Well I'm sure it won't be passed.

The wording of your description of your service in the American armed forces demonstrates beautifully why this debate is such an exclusively American one: if a German veteran, and one proud of his service, was to describe what he has done it would never ever occur to him to proclaim that he had spent his time with the military "protecting the German flag" - and for the very same reason it would never occur to s.o. who wanted to provokingly express his strong dissatisfaction with the German government or society to do so by burning a German flag.

So, ironically, it is the great number of people in the US like you, who hinge their patriotic feelings to their flag, that ensure that there will always be a certain number of people who feel inclined to express their views or just live out their need to provoke by burning the flag: where there is no taboo, there is no breaking it.

Also ironically, because few democratic countries interpret the concept of free speech as broadly as the US, I am rather certain that there exist provisions making "the degradation of national symbols" a criminal offense or at least a misdemeanor in several countries. Only, as there is hardly ever anybody feeling the urge to break them, they are pretty superfluous, unkown and never the cause for a national debate.

All of the above notwithstanding, I do think that there are certain other countries where the very strong patriotic/nationalistic sentiments of the population would make it suicidal to burn their national flag in public: one example that immediately comes to mind is Turkey.