I don't get this with suicide why would u wanna take ur life?
Maybe because ur sad, u think ur useless but that no reason for commiting suicude! If ur sad try work it out, don't commit suicide think about the pain u cause other ppl don't let 'em feel that pain it hurts it burns and u'll never forget...

Have you never heard of depression? Schizophrenia?

These are illnesses. Illnesses like flu or measles, but they affect the mind and emotions rather than the body.

9 out of 10 people will suffer from a mental health problem such as depression at some point in their lives.

No-one takes their life because they are just 'sad' - to think that is really quite naive. They end it because death is preferable to the crushing misery of living with depression for years on end.

I didn't mean only sad, but c'mon suicide doesn't help anyone seek help or something but don't commit suicide.

No I agree it doesn't help anyone, and that people should seek help, but I still think that you have completely failed to understand what depression is, how it overwhelms your life, drains your energy, leaves you feeling cut off from the world, unable to move, unable to function, unable to talk to anyone about what you're going through. There is also the issue of the stigma attached to depression and other mental health issues. It can be totally paralysing.

If only it was as simple as just going to get help.

Fortunately I have never suffered from depression, but I have lived and shared my life for a time with someone who did. When you see someone you care for, an intelligent person with a lot to offer, spend most of their time asleep and their waking hours withdrawn or crying for reasons that they cannot even begin to explain to you, the total hopelessness that they see - when you have talked someone like that out of suicide once - when you have seen them take a bottle of pills because it has all become too much - then you can begin to understand.

It is not as simple as just deciding to go and get help. I really suggest you do a google search on 'clinical depression' and 'manic depression' - you will be able to find a lot of information from people who have suffered with these illnesses, which may help you to understand - because at the moment you clearly have no idea what suffering from such a condition (or living with a sufferer) is like.

Suicide is an easy way out. It takes only a second or so of "courage" to end your "pain" forever. That's the reason why it appeals many. It's much more difficult to stand against your problems.
Obviously, as Epona pointed out, mental ilnesses will push you much further along this thinking path.

"To be or not to be - that is the question / Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer / the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune / or to take arms against a sea of troubles / and by opposing end them? <font color="#7c9bc4"> To die, to sleep; / No more? And by a sleep, to say we end / the heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks / The flesh is heir to </font>

its been my personal experience that most people who kill themselves do it because they believe there to be no way to stop the pain. more often then not they do seek help in some way but sometimes there just isnt much that can help...

Well said, Epona.

depression does suck. i know, i'm currently on anti-depressants. making me feel alot better [img]smile.gif[/img] . although i must say i have thought about suicide but never thought about doing it. always seemed like i'd miss too much in life. i mean my time will come eventually anyway so why hurry it along.

Yeah, and by doing that, they commit the most selfish deed imaginable. They don't even leave you with a chance to kick their ass for doing such a thing.

[img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] Epona. Well said.

But there is help to be had if you are depressed. Both medical and mental. Unfortunately this line of research does not get the praise and media time it deserves. Therefore it tends to be unheard of. There is a lot of research being done on schizophrenia and any depression. Some answers have been found whereas several remain unknown. The best advice to give anyone with a depression; the earlier you get professional help, the shorter time you will have to live with it. Of course not all can be treated and some can't even be helped. But you will get support and caring. And perhaps that is enough. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Johnny, I agree with you that suicide isn't the best solution. But by your standards in the post I above one could just as easily accuse familly/friends for being too selfish not to help. ;)

[ 05-31-2003, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: WillowIX ]

Can you explain to me how i'm supposed to help someone, if there are no signs whatsoever that he/she needs it ?

I spent 6 years with a wonderfull person who suffered with manic depression, she spent a year in hospital on 24 hour suicide watch, unable to even go to the toilet without having someone with her. Its difficult for a partner to understand, one minute everythings ok, the next total desperation, you begin to think it's your fault.

I remember when my Father was dying I got angry with Claire talking about suicide, compairing my dads situation, and telling her how he wanted to live but never had a choice, and she did, I suppose things got on top of me, but to this day I hate myself for saying it, very, very naive. As for carrying out 'the most selfish act' they don't see it that way, maybe it's us that are the selfish ones.

Claire passed away after complications during gallbladder surgery aged 30,so I suppose she got her way in the end.. she usually did [img]smile.gif[/img] and the only comfort I got from this is I know she's not suffering anymore.

As Epona said, unless you've lived with it it's difficult to understand the desperation.

*sighs* I just turned the argument around johnny. Writing off all people who commits suicide as cowards isn't the best thing to do. I don't know what it is like to be depressed, or having nothing to live for (for which I am very grateful). I do believe you feel the same. (At least I don't picture you as depressed :D ) [img]smile.gif[/img] So why accuse all those less fortunate of being cowards? Because they don't dare to face their life's hardship? What if they don't have a life to live?

[ 05-31-2003, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: WillowIX ]

They do it because they can find no way out. I've been through depression before, but it wasn't really serious and I got over it. They feel that it is just an easier way to rid themselves of the pain.

Today I took my life away,
what did I do..what can I say.
Wish I could have found another way,
To be here tomorrow, not yesterday.

I couldn't run with the flow,
I had to flee, I had to go,
I wasn't mainstream....If you see what I mean,
It may seem that I'm mean...
But I'm not.

Just lost in a world of forget me nots,
peaks and troughs, I can only see what I've lost,
never what I've gained,
I remember my pains, and the dormant thoughts,
I look at myself and I see the warts...
and all...

Now I hear the call....


I took my own life.
.
.
.
.
.
.
YOU FOOL YOU FOOL!!!....
come the words to my ears,
of my peers...

And they were right.

I've blamed everyone, been so uptight,
I thought I had the God given right,
to torture you all, now it's all my fault,
and upon my own web I'm now caught...
.
.
I'm stuck, I'm stranded...I'm going...
.
.
Going
.
.
I have been such a fool,
I didn't know how to make the call,
I walked crouched instead of tall,
my minds jester has had a ball,
.
.
.
the jester plays his final hand,
a poor one....
and so departs this land.
.
.
.

It's not the way,
I see that now,
I've been a pig, a proper sow,
nothing else can hurt me now....

....

Idiot I am...

....

But too late...

....

I'm dead

....

and gone

....

and buried

....

Wish I had a tomorrow,
but now only yesterdays are mine,
Oh man life was so sublime,
but it's now lost,
and what a cost,
and so somehow,
I'm gone,
no warmth,
.
.
see the worry upon my brow...
.
.

I am fading now...
.....
....
...
..
.
into..
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.memory...
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
please....
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

.
.try.....
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
to......
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
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remember me.......

Just as many have said here before you would have had to be depressed, or known someone that is, to really understand why anyone would want to end their life. Being depressed is not being a bit sad at the moment, it´s being sad to the point of crying constantly. Suicide just seems like a liberation at that point.

Besides I think that clinical depression has to do something with the brain, some chemical imbalance or similar, and can be triggered by a unpleasant event in ones life. Medication might be necessary.

At the end of the day, my life is my own and I will do with it what I please.

After working in Metal Health for almost 15 years, the last ten in crisis intervention, I can tell you that it is difficult if not impossible to understand the mindset of someone. Last year about 30,000 in the United States successfully committed suicide.

Suicide is often associated with mental illness but not always. Take for example a person with a terminal, painful and debilitating illness.

To get non-emergency help for someone you love (or yourself) look in the phone book under the headings: mental health, crisis intervention, depression or suicide. If all else fails call your local emergency room and ask where you can find help for depression.

If someone is actually threatening suicide, do not waste time, call the police.

Major Depression, Dysthymia and Bi-Polar Disorder (Manic-Depression) all have their root cause in a chemical imbalance. The most effective treatment options for these illnesses are medication therapy in combination with traditional talk therapy.
Situational issues, death of a loved one, divorce, loss of a job, school problems etc. can bring on symptoms very much like depression but suicidal thought are usually not associated with these traumas.

Individuals with Schizophrenia are considered to be at a higher risk of attempting suicide than individuals with Major Depression.

There is a class of mental disorder called Personality Disorders where one of the features is the individual will make suicidal threats, gestures or non-lethal attempts. These gestures are attention seeking activities. I have dealt with people who attempted suicide by taking 4 Tylenol or by ‘cutting’ themselves with a pencil.

If your having problems….get some help.
If someone you love is having problems help them get the help they need.

I was very close to replying to some of the posts on this thread with just, "STFU". Speaking as someone who has attempted suicide, I find some posts here insulting and insensitive. Please, consider what you type before you type it; this is a subject requiring tact. Depression and suicide are not "cowardly" in the slightest, no matter what your mate down the pub says. It's serious. I know that my depression would probably be just considered, "hormones", but it really wasn't; it was the scariest thing I have ever experienced.

I have to agree with Kaltia. I've been depressed - I am depressed, I've been suicidal, and it's probably the worst, most terrifying thing I've ever been unfortunate to experience. Some of these posts here were so incredibly insensitive I had to sit back and take several deep breaths before I was calm enough to post.
Imagine feeling utterly miserable, drained, horrible, distraught, feeling as if you're the most worthless being in existence and the world would be better if you'd never been born, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for months on end until you've forgotten what it feels like to be happy. Or were you ever happy? Imagine seeing your entire life go down the drain because of your feelings, because you're turning incapable of concentrating on something - seeing your grades at school drop, your friends begin to avoid you because you're acting so withdrawn and unfriendly, yourself lose interest in all the things that used to be fun until you just sit around at home and stare at the ceiling. Imagine suffering from nervous breakdowns, huge floods of negative emotions that are so incredibly emotionally *painful* - like nothing else you've ever experienced - that you can only sit in a corner and sob until they finally pass, that you even start hurting yourself simply to distract yourself from the sheer onslaught of grief, self-hatred and despair, transforming some of the emotional pain into physical because you have to do something or else you'll burst. Imagine these breakdowns coming several times a day, *every* day, at random intervals. Imagine not being able to go to anyone for help because they won't take you seriously, because hardly anyone takes mental illnesses seriously in this day and age.
Imagine all that, and you have an inkling of what it is like to be seriously, clinically depressed.
And then imagine reading posts by people who have had the fortune not to have to go through this living hell, talking about how cowardly suicide is. It's not. The instinct of self-preservation is one of the strongest, maybe the strongest, that humans have. It takes some serious pain, either physical or mental, to shut it off.
When I was suicidal, I didn't want to die - I wanted to live. However, what I was - what I am - going through can't be called living anymore. It was a living hell, that's what it is, and I just couldn't take it anymore. But...
Tell me, you people who said that suicide is the coward's way out, have you ever tried it? Have you ever held the knife, opened the pill-box, stood at the edge of the precipice? Quite frankly, it takes a great deal of bravery to take that step, to leave behind your life - no matter how horrible it is - and jump into the unknown. I couldn't take it. I was too cowardly, as you so nicely and tactfully put it. Of course, I'm glad I was, otherwise I wouldn't be here anymore. And, contrary to expections, I do want to live. But the point remains - killing oneself requires much more courage than most people have.

Anyway, those were my 2 cents. *steps off soapbox* Thank you, Kaltia, for informing me of the existence of this thread. Although I don't usually frequent IW anymore, this was far too offensive to pass up.

Kaz

[ 05-31-2003, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: Kaz ]

Some interesting and enlightening posts.

Up until this point, I never really understand depression much myself or why people would wish to take their own lives. Thanks to those who shared their experiences and feelings, I can imagine it was probably very difficult.

I always thought as many do, that suicide was a selfish act and couldn't comprehend why anybody would even consider such a course of action, but from what I've read it almost seems like those that do, honestly believe they have no choice, as if they are being controlled by the depression to do it.

If my conclusions are inaccurate, please feel free to correct me.

*sighs* I just turned the argument around johnny. Writing off all people who commits suicide as cowards isn't the best thing to do. I don't know what it is like to be depressed, or having nothing to live for (for which I am very grateful). I do believe you feel the same. (At least I don't picture you as depressed :D ) [img]smile.gif[/img] So why accuse all those less fortunate of being cowards? Because they don't dare to face their life's hardship? What if they don't have a life to live? </font>[/QUOTE]Where in my post did you see me use the word "cowards" ? I never said that they are cowards, i said they are selfish. There's a difference. If you really really really wanna kill yourself, by all means... go right ahead. Just make sure you leave noone behind who actually cares about you. It's not just your own life you end when that's the case.

This raises and interesting point as to whom our responsibility lies - to ourselves first and foremost, or to others? If you believe truly with no doubt that your life is not worth living, and that to continue on would be so painful it hurts even to think about it, how much consideration should you, morally give other people? I imagine people who are suicidal do think about their loved ones; it is probably one of the things that holds them back as long as they do, and the thing that stops some people from attempting it in the first place, or attempting it again. I think that is often the mentality behind the suicide note - to try to ease people's pain and guilt that they've left behind. Surely to not do what you think is absolutely the only thing that will end your pain and suffering just for the consideration of others is the ultimate sacrifice - should they have to make that sacrifice?

Another thing I will say is that we don't understand what is going through the minds of people who suicide, so to say that they are 'selfish' and only thinking of themselves along the same lines as someone is selfish because they ate all the cake and didn't leave any for anyone else is a little foolish. I've never been so consumed by despair to even imagine what it must be like. Considering also that a common thought that people who are severely depressed have is that they are worthless and no use to anyone it follows that people probably wouldn't miss them that much anyway, or would be better off without them.

There are also cases where people simply aren't in a sane state of mind. People suffering from schizophrenia or other disorders that involve hallucinations and delusions often are told by the voices that if they don't do something, often self-harm or worse, their loved ones will be harmed or killed.

when I was in grade 10 one of my older brother's tried to kill himself and I didn't even know he was depressed. one of my friends sorta told me on my way to school the next day. does that make me a horrible sister that I didn't even realize that something was wrong?
a lot of the time a suicide attempt IS the cry for help, maybe the ones who actually went through with it just didn't think anyone had heard them.

Excellent post, Kaz. You always were so much more eloquant than I [img]smile.gif[/img]

My sister suffered from depression. Now I'm worried that it's happening to me. But I never want to commit suicide because of how it'll affect other people.

Lanesra your post made my eyes full of tears, I'm a kinda sensitive person, that must have been awful. I suffer with u...

Good post Kaz. Covers a lot about the topic.

It is almost too difficult to understand if you haven't been in the situation (a date with the death). Are you a coward because you want to commit suicide? Maybe? Called it what you will but as long as you haven't stand face to face with the death than you don't know what a coward is (in this case). I've tried it more than "the number of fingers on one hand" and can't say it might happen one day.

It is almost impossible to describe how you feel (if you have any feelings/emotions at all) when you get so far out and suicide is (seems) the only solution to the problems. Kaz's post is a good read here but I can add tons to Kaz's post but it isn't necessary. Just don't think it is an easy topic to understand + you can live for years without knowing that a family member, your best mate etc. has a ....ed up life and is about to end it. Usually it is too late when the little bell rings.

You've "tried" to kill yourself more times than there are fingers on your hand, and you still didn't succeed ???

I don't wanna sound rude or anything, but why do you even bother trying ? It's pretty obvious that you DON'T want to die, otherwise you would have succeeded the first time.

You keep practising those 'people' skills johnny.

Not tried but concidered (jumping from 15th floor). Sounds like you really want me to take the final step.

Not rude either but clearly this is a topic you don't understand.

It is a selfish act so (in my case) finding the right time can be difficult but it has been taken care and I know when it is the right time.

[ 06-02-2003, 07:26 AM: Message edited by: Jan ]

My view point about it is so hard. If You take your life, you lose then. The life isnt a rose way (as we say), and this is the wonderfull in the life, think about it, the life's gift like the funny stuffs or love, or other wouldnt be wonderfull, you would take it as normal things, and this things wouldnt give you happiness, and you would fell sad. I want to tell it: the life has good and bad things, but one week sadness take in his hand a next one week happiness, you mustnt see the bad things, 'cause all things have bad and good things.

What's the fate bring us in the future?.
If you take your life you wont know it

Shaide

Johnny, you obviously feel very bad about your friend who took his life. :( I'm sorry that happened to you, and to him, and to all others who loved him.
I too lost someone to suicide. He was "married" to my uncle for over 23 years (ja, een homohuwelijk) and they were a fantastic couple, with lots of friends, always kind and warm and in immensely good spirits. They travelled a lot to countries like Kenia, and had contacts with orphanages there whom they brought all kinds of aid. They were stereotypical "levensgenieters". As I said on IW before, he was the person I would LEAST have expected to kill himself of all people I know. And yet he did, leaving my uncle behind devastated. So I understand about anger, I KNOW about anger.
(Someone made a good point saying that the people who will REALLY kill themselves don't talk about it or ask for help, they just do it - it leaves you helpless and disbelieving.)

But I also know what it's like to be on the other side. I don't feel like going into this, as people like Kaz and Jan so bravely have, and I have never seriously attempted to kill myself, but I do know what it's like wanting to destroy yourself. I've had times where my mind blanked out and I became an automaton, so I know that what you do in that state of mind is NOT what you'd do if you could control yourself. Though not all from personal experience, I know that people who become suicidal are often simply ill, suffering from depressions and the like. Do you blame someone with terminal cancer for dying? Of course you don't. It might be hard to put yourself in the place of a suicidal person, but then, you don't HAVE to understand how they feel. You can just accept the fact that when people are suicidally depressed, they may almost have as little choice in dying as a cancer patient has. And yes, that seems cruel and ironical - the cancer patient WANTS to live and dies, while the suicidal person is healthy yet robs him/herself of his/her life. But that's what a mental illness can do to you. If you don't have such an illness yourself, you cannot possibly know what goes on in their minds, whether they have any control over their feelings. It's not just something you can "snap out of".

Maybe most of us have felt "suicidal" at one point in our teens, emotions are often vehement in that time. Some teens have actual depressions at that age, others will grow out of it. But even if you think you have experienced suicidal feelings, weak or strong, you cannot judge what goes on in someone elses mind.
So I hope you realise that your comments can be very hurtful to people. Feeling isolated and misunderstood is a part of being suicidal and by your blatant refusal to try and understand, you are only aggravating things.

Edit:
As for your comment on "trying" to commit suicide, it is true that those who ask for help or talk about their suicidal feelings are less likely to kill themselves - as I said, those who truly wish to die do so without letting anyone know. But that doesn't mean that an attempt can't go wrong. It doesn't mean people who talk about being suicidal just want attention. Be GLAD they talk about it, it shows they have some spark left inside them that says "I don't want to die". But don't ever disparage their very real despair by saying "if you really wanted to kill yourself you wouldn't have failed in the attempts". A cry for help is not necessarily a cry for attention. One part of you, a huge part of you, can wish to die while a small part somewhere still holds on and tries to get better. Fighting that hard against a mental illness that can completely take over your thought is NOT cowardice.

[ 06-02-2003, 07:46 AM: Message edited by: Melusine ]

Why would i want you to take that step ? I don't even know you. I'm just a little confused over things like this. Recently an old friend of mine killed himself, and in the past there were two other people i personally knew, who ended their lives with overdoses of pills. They knew exactly what they wanted, never said a word to anyone, and just did it.

I also know someone, who i still see from time to time, when he was having moneyproblems, tried to kill himself. Or, as i see it, came up with a lame attempt to ask for help. First he called a good friend, spoke a lot of stuff that didn't make sense, just to make sure he had his full attention, then he opened the frontdoor of his appartment so that anyone could walk right in, went to the bathroom, and cut his wrist.

Now, he knew all along that someone was coming over, he even opened his door for him, and yet he did something like that. Later he spoke of the whole thing as if it was something to be really proud of, like he did something heroic. Imo however it was NO attempt at suicide. I don't know how to call it, but he sure as hell never wanted to end his life.

I'm not trying to get someones attention. Hell no. It is the last thing I want. Nor is it a cry for help. I don't want help from anybody. I don't want to bother anybody with my problems. Call it lame - call me coward - call me whatever you want. In fact this is the first time I tell about it. Why do you ask?? I just got annoyed as I saw this thread. You hear and see this question about suicide over and over again. That's ok but there is too many people trying to answer it or think they understand it. THEY DON'T!!!!!!!! As Melusine wrote (great post by the way): Mental illness. You can't understand what is going on in the mind of a person who has some kind of mental defect. You must understand the fact that it is a very complicated question and the answer is almost impossible to understand. That's why all this coward-carp and etc. bothers me.

[ 06-02-2003, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Jan ]