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Based on Saucemans thread, and a recent post there...I found myself wondering the following.

1. How long (or two what age) are the parents obligated to allow their children to live at home rent and responsibility free?

2. Do parents have a responsibility to force their kids out of the family home at some point (like mother birds pushing the chicks out of the nest).

3. Is there a point at which a parent does more harm to the child by shielding them from responsibility rather than thrusting them into the cold cruel world?
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I know that my ex, has 5 brothers..and all but one of them never really made it on their own..they stayed home and lived and some are still living there at age 32 and in their late 20's...they always seem to have beer and drug money, but can never pay their parents for food or expenses and forget about rent. Over the years these "boys" have trashed several of their parent's cars while DUI and the house has been reduced to ramshackle status (you can see right throught he house in places). Conversations with these parents have revealed that they believe that they are doing the right thing in helping their children survive with their troubles.

knowing the above, and having my own kids and having been raised int he household that I was...I have the following views.

1. Obligation of the parent ends at 18 (and high school graduation), but can be voluntarily extended for various humanitarian reasons or for college education.


2. Yes

3. yes

Come on America and the rest of the world, let me know what you think :D </font>

I agree with you. If I am so lucky as to have kids, any expenditures and assistance they get beyond age 18 will be merit-based only. If they are willing to get an education, make good grades, and work hard at school and during summers, I will help all I can. If I am unable to pay for everything, the above list may also require them to get a job. I'm also pretty liberal, and would understand the need to party and cut loose upon occasion. All-in-all I think it's a reasonable stance.

My father and I have an unspoken contract. Though I am in lots of school loan debt, he helped along the way in significant ways, with money and otherwise. The contract is that I owe my children repayment for what he gave me. It's an agreement I can live with.

But, if there is no college, I will charge rent, and evict recalcitrant tenants. :D

1. My children understand that at 18, once graduated from High School they will start paying rent.

2. Yes.

3. Yes. Parents are not called to enable but to guide and lend wisdom in order that our children can navigate life and hopefully make wise decisions.

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Well TL and Alb. It seems we have much in common...I hope some of the younger folk will give their views and thoughts as well.

I think for financial reasons my kids will be required to work their way through college...I will help by feeding, clothing and if they desire sheltering them, Unlike you Timber Im not in the debt with my paretns that you are..I do however have a self imposed debt to take care of them if and when the time comes that it is necessary [img]smile.gif[/img]

I am currently allowing my company to pay for my college education :D Nothing like going to school on the company dime :D </font>

there have been times when I had no choice but to mov back home, When My husband and I seperated when I was pregnant with oour second child, I had no job and no way to make it on my own, I had to be put on 24 hour a day bed rest due to a thing called placenta previa, where the placenta detacthes from the wal to soon and covers the cervix, my parents did not want to have to take turns coming over and spending time, so we moved me back to their house, where I stayed until Christmas, when we got back together, I had a healthy girl, and everything was going great then, but right after I had my 3 child, my husband lost his job, and was out of work for 6 months, so we lost our home and had to move back in with my parents, at which time my husband changed jobs 3 times, then he got thisjob and we were able to moveback out on our own after 8 months of living with them [img]smile.gif[/img] we help them, they help us, that is what family is for

Hm, I like TL's phrase, "merit-based." Yeah, my kids can live here, but they'll have to pay rent and contribute to the food budget. As to neatness, ha! they'll have to answer to <font color=pink>Galadria</font>, that's all I need to say.

A point of view from an asian:

1. Until the child gets married. If the family is filthy rich and lived in large mansion, the children are encourage to stay with the family even after married.

2. When the children are ready to leave the "nest", they will do it themselves. Anyway, if the children decided to stay, they will have to provide support to the family in terms of money and effort.

3. There are no such thing as "shielding from responsibility". Adult children can stay with the parents but they would need to earn their own living and support the family. Asian (mainly Chinese) families promote the harmony of living with the parents and while taking care of the parents and siblings. After all, the parents devoted half of their lives to raise and provide the necessary education to their children.

Even if all the children decided to live on their own, they would have to share the responsibility of looking after their retired parents.

Well, before I moved to Sweden I still lived at home with my mum. I didn't have to pay any rent or food money, because I studied at a university. Though I did also have a part-time job, so that I had my own pocket money and clothes money, and maybe some money to go on a vacation. But my mum did help me with buying school books, because those cost a fortune. And sometimes also with clothes, or any other time I didn't have money but needed it. I really hated asking my mum for money, but sometimes I had no choice. :( But I didn't go out partying with it, if that's what you think. [img]tongue.gif[/img] As I said, it was spent on books. [img]smile.gif[/img]

So I think that parents should take care for the child until they finished highschool, and then after that if they want to. When I have children, I know I'll want to help them, so I'd probably let them stay as long as they wanted. But only if they studied or had a job. Though in the latter case I'd want them to contribute to the rent and food money. [img]smile.gif[/img] But if they studied I wouldn't ask anything of them, and I'd even help them if they needed help, but only if they didn't go out drinking every night and spend money on alcohol - because if you have money for that, then you also have money for rent. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ 05-29-2003, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: Spelca ]

My answers:

1. 18, and voluntarily after that
2. yes... but when? I go more for pushing responsibility rather than departure.
3. yes. Starts very early... elementary school in some cases :(

From my perspective, a parent's job is to raise a child who will become a healthy, responsible adult. That means that the child should develop increasingly better life skills, from the basics (cooking, cleaning, etc.) to the advanced stuff (paying bills, managing finances, and so on).

As a parent, I want to protect my kids. I see a lot of what they do, and I can see the likely results (goofing around on a swing and fell off? well, duhh... [img]smile.gif[/img] ). But I also need to let them make mistakes so they can really learn from them.

I've seen too many families where the parents don't let the kids finish growing up. I went out with a girl once whose father did the taxes for everyone in the family. It wasn't because he was a knowledgeable tax person or anything like that; he'd just been doing it forever, and no one else knew how to do it. A lot of the cult-like organizations follow the same principals -- you aren't capable of doing it yourself, so I'll do it for you.

In some ways, it can be hard for a parent to acknowledge their kids have grown up. Call it "powdered butt syndrome" -- you can't really take anyone seriously whose butt you have powdered and put into a diaper. At 23, their "kid" is still young and needs their guidance and direction. If you ever want to have fun, ask the domineering parent what they were doing at the same age... odds are it's a whole lot more than they think their kid is ready for.

For reference, my dad thought I was too young when I got married (25). But when he was that age, as my mom pointed out, he'd been married three years and had two kids. Heck, I was a late bloomer compared to him!

Magik - I agree with you! :eek:
Ah well, stranger things have happened [img]tongue.gif[/img] I think [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Yes I agree it can be damaging for late teens/early 20s not to make their own way in the world.

I left college at 18, and from that point on I started paying a normal rent to my parents until I left home at the age of 19. Even before the age of 18 I was a responsible person. I worked part-time from age 16 while I was studying, and paid my parents a percentage of my small wage towards my upkeep, bought and cooked a lot of my own food, and looked after myself. I always helped out with chores around the house (including cooking twice a week from age 8 - my mum always encouraged me to cook as part of my responsibilities because I enjoyed it and had a bit of a talent for it, as well as the fact it helped her out with a chore she detested).

Because of that, I am and have always been a very self sufficient, independent, and responsible adult. I know I can look after myself. I also know that my parents will always help me out to the best of their abilities if I fall on hard times - for example I lived with them for 3 months last year when I would otherwise have been homeless. I hated having to rely on them during that period. They have also loaned me money recently, but I am determined I will pay it back when I can afford to - and they trust me to do it. I would feel guilty not doing so, because they could use that money when they retire in a few years, and I want them to have a good retirement after all those years of working to support me. If the situation were reversed I would help them out financially if I were able.

Now my mum would never have asked me to leave home! But I wanted to be independent. My younger bro is 29 and still lives with them. He pays rent, but he doesn't seem to me to be a very independent person - he doesn't cook for himself, do his laundry, or anything like that. Don't get me wrong, he is a lovely person, but I just don't see him coping well on his own - maybe I'm wrong about that though.

1. In the UK, parental legal obligation ends at 18 I think, although it is legal for a teenager to leave home at 16 if they wish. Most stay with their parents until 18 though, and if they go to university that may be extended in terms of financial assistance if the parents can afford it.

2. I think parents should strongly encourage their kids to get jobs at an appropriate age (mine did!) I think 'force' may be a little strong, but coercion I would agree with in terms of leaving home. That can be difficult in the UK because rent is so high, many people starting out in a job simply cannot afford to move out. But wherever possible, parents should ensure their kids become independent, but not to the extent of forcing them out on the street.

3. Yes it is harmful if kids of any age are not given any responsibility at all - parenting should largely be about turning helpless children into self sufficient adults, and should start from a young age and build up gradually. I believe it is stifling to overprotect a young adult.

[ 05-29-2003, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: Epona ]

1. Well after their eighteenth birthday they are living there on overtime. It´s something for the parents to decide.

2. I don´t know about the responsiblity but they will have to move out someday. Personally I don´t understand why anyone would like to live with their parents into the late twenties and early thirties. I mean you are a grown-up by then.

3. Parents should give their children the neccessary tools to handle the "cold cruel world". There is always a point where the (over)protection of the children do more harm than good. Again, they will have to move out someday.

1) a child should have some kind of responibility to the family and home at 16, responsibility such as chores, maybe even a job. Dont have them sitting around on thier arses all day watching TV. If they are still living with thier parents after they graduate High School, then they should definetly have to pay rent, if they dont, how will they learn about the real world?

2) If the person in question has no sense of responsibility, then by all means, kick thier arse out for a month, let them get a taste of the real world.

3) At a point, yes. But they should not thrust the child into the real world to the extent where the child hates life, or the adult.

"merit-based" is a nice way of viewing things. When I graduated high school and began work my parents suggested I live at home so I could afford school. Mom had recently lost her job due to governmental budget cuts so financial help from the parents for school was out of the question. My job would cover tuition, books and travel but would leave nothing else. I stayed for four years and paid no rent. When the topic did come up my parents said that someday after they retire they would move in to my house and live rent free. This was the only time in my life I regretted being an only child.

Responsibility to the home and the family begin in childhood and not at age 18. This includes things from cooking and cleaning and home maintenance to participating in family decisions.

IMHO if you raise a child well you will never have to ‘force’ them to move out as they will want to leave home because they are adult enough and independent enough to do so.

Our every action, either good, bad or indifferent, has repercussions. The basis of ethical behavior is rooted in this concept. Everyone needs to grasp this concept and I believe the sooner you do grasp it the better. We all need to take responsibility for our action and our choices. My 14 month old nephew knows that if you, (for example) walk up to your brother, take the cup of juice he is drinking and throw it at him you will get a time out.

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These are really great replies and I would especially like to thank Sauceman for coming in and posting, as I was quite hard on him in his thread...though being tough on him was not the reason behind my devils advocate position.

Epona. You pointed out the main reason why I think family is the most important aspect of our culture. We are all ment to be independant people, but when times are tough, families (should) band together to help the members in need....rather than pawn that responsibility off on some government agency.

From familys you then move to neighborhoods, the community works together to make things work....its all kind of integral.....but now, at least in the US we don't look to our families or our communities, we are being encouraged to look to uncle sam for a handout.....

Anyway, thank all of you for participating and for being so positive :D </font>

<font color=deepskyblue><font color=lime>Magik</font> - I agree with you pretty much straight down the line. I was allowed to live at home rent-free as long as I was in school (including college), but I most definitely did not live responsibility free. I had an "on campus" job every semester in addition to working at McDonald's on the weekend for spending money. I also had responsiblities around the house and was expected to do my share.

A friend of mine got to experience issues #2 & #3 first hand. He came home from college after his sophomore year and announced he had decided to "take a year off" to experience life.
His dad said "That's great....where will you be staying?" [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img]
"Huh....what do you mean?" asked his son.
"I mean, where will you live? I promised you could live at home as long as you were in school. You want to experience life?, then you need to get the FULL experience."

So my buddy had to find a job and a place to live. The dad owned his own business, but would not let the son work for him. So the son got out into the "real world" and found out it was pretty dang tough on his own. After a suitable time, the father allowed him to move back home and come to work for his company. The son promptly started his OWN business - which was basically a competitor to his dad's. When he refused to quit taking business away from his dad's business, he was fired - and again sent out to make it on his own. It took a little longer the second time, but the son's business eventually folded. Once again, dad allowed him to come back. As far as I know, the son is still there and DID "learn his lesson" the second time around.

His dad has a very successful business and the son is in line to take it over when dad retires. Apparantly, the son finally realized he had a pretty good set-up and decided to stay put.

Now to be honost, I don't completely agree with the dad offering his son a second chance with the business. There is always the danger that the son will try to "branch out" again...knowing that dad will act as a safety net if he fails. But so far, the son seems content to work for his dad and wait until it is his turn to run the business.</font>

I'll start by saying that I am 22, live at home, and I don't pay rent. I am a full time student, plus I volunteer at Epilepsy Queensland to get experience for my hopefully future profession, since there really aren't opportunities to work for pay when you don't have qualifications in the field of mental health.

I agree that parents do not have an obligation to support their adult children when they finish school, if they are not studying (I say this because although certainly it's possible to have a part-time job while studying, unless you study part time and have a full time or almost full time job it is very difficult to support yourself totally while maintaining high marks). I disagree however with the notion that if adult children are not made by their parents to go out and make their own way when their parents' responsibility is legally finished, they will not be capable of doing so sometime in the future. I don't pay rent, and I've never had any experience of paying rent. That doesn't mean that I don't understand that rent would have to be paid or would not be able to pay it because I would recklessly spend all my money when I do finish my studies and move out. There are enough adults who left home early that are not capable of maintaining a budget, saving, keeping their credit rating sound and providing for themselves and their family.

People looking at me would say, like Epona's brother, that I am not a very independent person, which is true, since my mother (who is not in the paid workforce) cooks dinner for the whole family and does the washing and ironing and so on. She feels that it would be inefficient for me to do a separate load of washing and ironing and so on just because I'm an adult when it's relatively not that much trouble for her. Again, just because I don't do it now does not mean that I won't be capable or somehow have the idea that it all gets done by magical fairies or something when I do move out.

The scenario you describe MagiK is definitely one where I think the parents are being negligent in allowing their sons to remain living in their house while being so disrespectful of their property and generosity, and they should give them a kick up the bum and make them move out. But there are many adult children, my brother and I two examples, that live at home and don't behave like that, just as there are many people who are 14 or 15 who live at home and act like complete tools and need a bit of tough love.

My parents basically view their supporting me while I finish my education as - they are not spending money on me that they could be spending on themselves, that is, they are not depriving themselves of things because I needed a new pair of jeans this winter. The money they are spending on me would go to me at some time or other - either now, or when they die and I inherit. And (hopefully), by the time both my parents are gone I will be well over 40 - when do I need the money, now or when I'm fully capable of supporting myself and have been doing so for at least 20 years?

1. Until the child no longer is a minor. After that it's up to the youth and his/her parents. If Jackie would like to stay at home after she's turned 18 I won't complain too much. Of course I would expect her to contibute in one way or another. But then I already expect her to contribute by cleaning her room, set the table etc. [img]smile.gif[/img]

2. Encourage yes, force no. But I personally don't know anyone that didn't want to move out when attending college or university. No commuting and come and go as you please. If money is an issue I would be glad to help my children.

3. Well parents can still shield their children even if they do not live with them. As for doing more harm I'm not sure. In some cultures children are expected to live with their parents to take care of their needs. This would not shield the children in any way since all responsibility is on their hands. But IMO one needs to make ones own living. So working but living at home (paying rent and food of course) would not be considered shielding IMO. The scenario in your opening post is not something I endorse. If they can't find a place of their own they should at least cover their own expences.

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wow so many great posts, it is very good to hear such greatattitudes toward raising children [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Cerek</font> That was a great story, and yes Id have been pretty cautious about taking the kid back in a second time.

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Azred</font> all I can say is [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] You described my ideal child rearing family building scenario.

A.J. the situation you describe is a special arrangement that owuld be included under my humanitarian exceptions clause [img]smile.gif[/img] You are a hard working student not being a lazy bum so would not warrent being tossedout on your ear.
As for not being able to work full time and get good grades....I know many honor students who did work full time...its a matter of dedication and partly of innate intelligence.

<font color=deeppink>Willow</font>, [img]smile.gif[/img] sounds like you are well on your way to having a great kid [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>

[ 05-30-2003, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

Oops, TL made a blatant error! Either that or he was brainwashed by a small group of blue aliens.... I know that I might stay at home while I'm at University, unless I'm going furthur away. So, I could be leaving home at 18.

1) Legally, 18. But the only people I know in the real world that are 'counting the days' to dump their kids out of the house at 18 should have been neutered in adolescence. You, as a parent, have a moral obligation to raise your child to be mature enough to not only be able to fend for themselves, but to be motivated enough to want to do it and to respect you as they do it. And yes, some irritating restrictions like curfews and controls on what/who you bring into the house are designed not only to teach responsibility and build character, but to help build the desire to build a life elsewhere independently. Bill Cosby isn't completely wrong when he tells graduating classes at University to move out on their own and not move 'back home'.


2) Yes. I guess if I had to put a limit on it, I'd have to say 25 years. If you can't raise your child to become a self-suficient adult in 25 years, then you have to start pushing them out of the nest and let their survival instincts take over.

3) Yes. The more you protect a child, the harder the lessons become later on when they learn them themselves. You should always try to teach your children and show them what the results of your experiances have been, but there comes a time when they'll roll their eyes & tune you out. These times are over issues that they'll have to learn the hard way.