While I rather doubt professional golf is high on the list of interests of most users here, I thought I'd pass on the good news to one of my favorite forums. While I'd expected Annika to shoot better than the +1 she actually did produce, given the amount of hype that has surrounded her appearance on the PGA tour, her score is more than respectable. In fact, she played brilliantly (well, from tee to green, anyway), and has at least given herself a shot at making the cut in the event, which would make a lot of testosterone-O.D.'d men very, very unhappy.

This is a moderately history-making event in sports (insofar as we can claim any kind of "history-making" events for sports), so although it is rather OT for a CRPG forum, possibly a few among the 11,000-odd users will find it interesting. [img]smile.gif[/img]

-- Mal

How is this history making? She's just following in the foot steps of Mildred (Babe) Didrikson Zaharias.

I find it very intresting and even with mud on the ball she only boogied the last hole on the front 9. Great game and something to be proud of for everyone who can't play very well to those that think they can ;) With my handicapp I have beaten any of you before we even hit the course :rolleyes:

Khazadman:

That's why I said "moderately."

-- Mal

<font color="#f683ad">I would be a whole lot more impressed if she were competing against the men on equal footing..special forward tee positions just means she can't compete by playing by the same rules. If you are in the Mens catagory...tee off from where all the men do.

Sorry but I am for equal rights...not "more than equal rights" or "special Exceptions"


That said, she'd beat the pants off me...my best score ever was an 88 [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>

[ 05-22-2003, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

You just HAD to screw up the party, didn't you ? :D

Ah, in fact, children. Annika played from the same tees and by exactly the same rules as the rest of the field. That, you see, is rather the point.

It might be useful if you checked your facts before making your comments...


-- Mal

[ 05-22-2003, 10:59 PM: Message edited by: Malthaussen ]

Annika is a brilliant golfer, and I've watched her in the LPGA for quite a while. I personally don't have a problem with a publicity match like this where she gets a crack a the PGA... it's good for both mens and womens golf.

I do however have a problem with women in general trying to play on the tour... simply because I think there's an assumed "M" in the name. The LPGA is a great forum for women to test the mettle in a level field... the best of the best. The PGA I always thought of as the forum for men to test their skills. While Annika IS competing in EVERY way 1:1 against the guys (and I believe she WILL make the cut), the REAL risk of opening the PGA to women is that it will leave the LPGA open to assault by guys who are darn good golfers, but can't make the tour. I DON'T want to see the LPGA turned into a farm league for the tour... I really think we should keep them seperate for now. Annika isn't the only female golfer out there, and while she might be able to make a living on the tour as a mid-level player... most women would not.

On no - a classic case of shooting from the hip - he lines up the shot and

AIRBALL [img]graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/uhoh2.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/evillaughter2.gif[/img]

Sorry to tell you Ray, she is competing on an equal footing, she has no special forward tee positions, and she is playing by the same set of rules. She is in the men's category, and she is teeing off from where all the men do.

Is is historic - sure is in this day and age - the age of the athlete golfer where men (and women) hit the gym heavily to get extra length through physical conditioning.

It was great seeing Annika hit in a 6 iron to a par 3 and watch the next 10 guys hit 6 iron. I only watched the first 14 holes - it was getting too late for me (1:30 am), but in terms of how close to the pin your approach shot was, she would have easily been in the top 10 % of what I saw. Her putting really let her down - it is these shorter shots where the nerves and the tension of the occasion were most likely to get to her. But for some more confidence in the putting stroke, she would have been up in the top 20 easily.

Go Annika [img]smile.gif[/img]

<font color="#f683ad">If that is true, I retract my statement, HOWEVER, ABC news on the radio yesterday said she was starting from a forward Tee. Several yards closer to the hole.</font>

<font color="#f683ad">Ok lets go over my post carefully here...I said I wasn't impressed because she wasn't playing by the same rules...so far I have one guy saying she is, and ABC news saying she isn't......

Ok is she teeing off at the same place that the men are or is she taking the forward "womens" tee? I did not criticise her abilities nor he right to compete in a mens tournament...I protested special treatment.

Now...who threw which airball?

Now riddle me this...why are men not allowed to play on the LPGA? </font>

"Annika Shoots 71 in 1st Round at Colonial"

And people still say there should be no gun control. *sigh*

Mmmm! You seem to be very confused on this one. You don't 'throw' the ball in golf, you get a long stick thing to 'hit' it.

But it's definitely your airball. Either ABC are wrong or you misheard it!

And men can't play in a women's tournament because that just wouldn't be fair would it?

[ 05-23-2003, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

Funny that ABC would make such an error... the appearence of Annika has caused a pretty severe tempest in the teacup of professional golf.

A point, MagiK -- another woman (whose name I misremember)has qualified to play at Hartford later this year. Her qualification was controversial because she did, in fact, use the forward tees. I haven't heard one way or another as to whether she will use those tees in that tournament. This subject always comes up when Annika's appearence at Colonial is mentioned. Possibly ABC garbled the stories or you weren't entirely attentive.

Hey, what can I say? I watched her whole round, she was playing from the same tees. As you say, the thing wouldn't be nearly so interesting if she were not.

As for the other topic, of men on the LPGA and women invading the (Implied M) PGA, that one is a pretty hot potato. Show me any three people who could discuss that issue quietly and clearheadedly, and I'd be amazed. The amount of invective the subject has produced reminds me of the nastiest religious debates -- the ones that usually end up with blood on the floor. I doubt many women would want to play regularly on the PGA Tour at this juncture, because they'd do a lot better financially on the LPGA. OTOH, I doubt many men would want to compete on the LPGA because they'd be too embarrassed. It's bad enough being relegated to the Nationwide Tour, or Asia or Canada or some other such barbarous place -- the perceived second-ratedness (or even third-ratedness) of the LPGA would make it anathema to all but the most mercenary of male golfers.

As for women competing against men, why not, after all? "Because they're not as good," is the usual response. So, okay. If they're not as good, they won't compete. Simple. Why is it a problem? It's funny. Most pro athletes are dedicated capitalists -- just look at their paychecks. [img]smile.gif[/img] Most believers in capitalism say that good products will drive out bad, that a commodity will find it's proper level in an unregulated marketplace. Yet when it comes to applying Gresham's Law to gender issues, they become most uncapitalistic indeed. Something wrong, here.

-- Mal

<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="3" color="#f683ad">
Thanks for the clairity there Malth. [img]smile.gif[/img] It could be that I garbled the two stories while listening to ABC news on the Captiol Beltway, and your information about watching the tourny and seeing her use the same Tee's completly satisfied my argument...she did compete as an equal and so in that case I applaude her skill as a duffer [img]smile.gif[/img] As I said, before I have never shot a 71 in my life, forward tee's or no.

I did hear that she was actually having an exceptional short game too.
</font>

[ 05-23-2003, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

The Capitol Beltway? You have my deepest empathy. Anyone trying to negotiate that circus in rush hour may be excused for missing a few nigglin' little details in a news report.

-- Mal

She has to be using the same tees as everyone else. They only have one set in a pro tourney.

I dunno anything about golf but she rocks!

<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="3" color="#f683ad">Is why I avoid it when ever possible [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>

<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="3" color="#f683ad">
As Malth. said above, there was another lady golfer who was to have played in a "mens" tourny but would be using a "forward" Tee position...so it is not like "only one Tee position" is some kind of universal constant in this arena.

Personally if a woman can compete with the men without special rules or allowences Im all for it....but if you need special treatment due to your sex, then I am sorry but you should not be competeing in that particular arena...In my opinion.

Edit: ya know...female Sumo wrastlers...now that would be fun to watch :D </font>

[ 05-23-2003, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

There is a nice article about her first round on the ESPN site here. Atm, it does not look like she'll make the cut (+4 after 10 holes of her second round), but good on her for trying [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="3" color="#f683ad">
As Malth. said above, there was another lady golfer who was to have played in a "mens" tourny but would be using a "forward" Tee position...so it is not like "only one Tee position" is some kind of universal constant in this arena.

</font> </font>[/QUOTE]Actually AFAIK while the other woman qualified for the mens event by using closer tees (I believe she won or top ten or something in another event which was either a women's or mixed tournament), in the actual men's tournament she will be playing she will be teeing off from the men's tees.

I think golf is one of the few sports that women can compete on an even playing field with men, which is great! While it is advantageous to be able to hit long off the tee if you don't have a short game then if you need a 6 iron or a 3 iron for your second shot it really doesn't matter. And it isn't always the longest hitters that are the best players.

I hope she does make the cut. I think if she doesn't though not very much could really be made of her performance. Yesterday teeing off in front of over 600 journalists was probably the most nerve-wracking experience of her life. She said herself she never really felt relaxed like she does normally yesterday - and to shoot a +1 even so was a great achievement.

Mwahahahahha - that's the second time one of you pair have cracked me up totally this week [img]smile.gif[/img] I can't believe no one else laughed enough to comment [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 05-23-2003, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: Davros ]

LOL - trust me Ray - I wouldn't be talking of airballs and pushing myself this far out on a limb if you weren't "ABSOLUTELY CATEGORICALLY TOTALLY FLAMIN WRONG AND IN FACT NOWHERE EVEN IN THE RIGHT BALLPARK TO BE EXACT" ;) . Atually MagiK - I have never been surer in my facts when I have crossed swords with you in debate. This topic is one that I have been following fairly closely for months.

Davros hands ball back - I believe this is yours [img]smile.gif[/img] .

Riddle me this huh - why are men never allowed to play in the LPGA - cos they are clearly physically dominant in this sport. How would that be a measure of equality of the sexes? Should we "men" feel threatened becuase the best woman in the world wants to test herself againt us on our rules and our terms - HALE NO (as my good mate JD would put it) 0 let hed find out for herslef what it's like and how she rates. Should the women feel threatened if physically advantaged people (I don't know - say us men) were allowed to compete in their events - HALE YES - that is hardly a move that produces equality - it produces inequality.

Your question answers itself really.

Quite corect on the first point Aelia about the other woman that is going to play in the coming months - she qualified on shorter tees, which I don't think was fair by the way, be she will be playing off the back blocks with the big boys when her moment comes.

Your second part I don't agree with all that much (Davros ducks and looks for the sky to fall on his head), because I don't think it is a sport that can be competed on on an even playing field (one provise being that you could atificially set up a course to be both short and penal (rough) and with soft greens such that the additional length of the men is hopefullly negated). Annika had the option to chose which event to enter, and all those reasons of course set-up where in her mind when making the call.

Annika is testament to what a good gym program can do for a golfer - she has changed her body shape and know has much more muscular definition than she used to. She is hitting the ball 30 yards further that she was 3 years ago, but she is still losing 50 yards on the longer half of the guys. There are holes out there where the guys are flying their drives straight over dog-leg corners that Annika can't hope to clear, and on those holes they are gaining up to 100 metres. I was seeing the top 20% of the guys hit 9 irons from 150 yds into the 3rd, and Annika played the hole fantatically and as well as she could, but she hit a wood from 240 yds. The fact that she put that wood shot inside all the other guys 9 irons is testament to her skill, and as the #1 golfer in the LPGA that skill has proven itself and has my respect.

It is true that the longer hitters aren't always the best players, but power is a huge advantage. The shorter clubs are easier to control, so you want to be hitting short approaches. The better of the male golfers will have as good a golf game as Annika PLUS the physical advantage of length. Much of the low scoring (birdies and eagles) takes place on par 5's and the longer guys just physically overpower those holes.

Do I see regular female competition in the PGA in the future - no. Do I see equality of the sexes in golf - not anytime soon. Do I enjoy seeing some of the best women golfers in the world testing themselves against the guys - to get a sense of the other world and to how they would stand - yes, sure. I would start by letting the leading money winner on the LPGA pick a PGA event to enter in if she so choses (I think Annika was brave to face this media circus, and has tremendous inner strength). Let things evolve by how successful that proves over the years. If the women keep taking up the challenge, and start to make cuts and perform well, then look at how the game can evolve towards further equalitles.

Heck - we may even see a female member of Augusta National, or Royal St Georges by those times ;) .

Now she is dead meat and doesn't make the cut,and now there are no women in the open,is everybody happy?

I HATE GOLF!! I play all the time but I hate it I think I'll just stick with shooting pistols at least I'm really great at that.

She didn't look too bad out there. I was really impressed by her ability to hit the ball so straight. I wish I could hit as many fairways off the tee as she does.

She played well, but she had a bad stretch of holes during the middle of her second round. As many of those who play the game know, if you have one bad hole, it can lead to a lot more, and she just couldn't recover from that. Also, she did not putt well at all. If you're not putting well, you're not going to shoot well, and I think that hurt her the most.

But in the end, I must say that I was impressed. Not with just the way she played, but with her handling of the whole situation, the good and the bad.

Displaying tact Mr Butterknife - that's not something I am used to - age seems to be mellowing you [img]smile.gif[/img] .

No, she didn't make the cut, but she made a good fist of it. I think that she played golf that she would be proud of, and been disappointed about her putting performance.

Is everyone happy that she is out - well clearly some are (as the Scarlet Poignard seems to be) and some aren't, but in the end it really isn't about them anyway. It was about Annika testing herself against the men at their own game - I think she will be disappointed in not making the cut, but there were some real positives in the way she handled herself under intense media glare with the expectations of so many upon her.

There is something I am wondering though Mr Blade and perhaps you can give me an insight. Golf is not what I would term an inexpensive sport. Now granted, some people play for money and riches, but I imagine that unless I misread you, you are not in fact a professional golfer. Most other people play for enjoyment or the challenge of bettering one's abilities. It's hard to imagine why someone would recreationally play such an expensive sport (green fees, Membership fees, golf clubs, shoes, new ball per round), and do so "all the time" if someone "HATES GOLF".

Just think how this financial burden is limiting your shooting development for one - like how many extra bullets could you buy to splatter at those pieces of paper on the shooting range wall if you just stopped playing golf "all the time". Also the time commitment is interfering in potential shooting practice sessions - you could be more than "really great" if you focussed on your priorities. Stay positive - "really really greatness" is just about the corner you know.

I was really hopeing that she would win and shut all those nose in the air male golfers mouths. I didn't bet on her or anyone else. I just would have been really happy had she at least made the cut, oh well maybe next year. I do like the fact that she did alot better than many of the men and it did shut the mouth of a buddy of mine buy having every game she shot at least 3 strokes better than his best ever. His wife will never let him live it down after all the crud he said about women's golf and they have no reason to play in a mans game. His older brother told him they need a caddy down at the Putt Putt mini Golf and he would do just fine there. Boy was he pissed after that he told his brother to go "F" himself and left the house. Temper Temper. [img]graemlins/1pissed.gif[/img]

[ 05-24-2003, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="3" color="#f683ad">
Can you help me to understand why it is so important for Augusta to have a Female "Member"? Are we then to say we need to do away with ALL clubs and organizations that segregate on the basis of sex? Shall all the YMCA's allow women and all YWCA's allow men? Boy and Girl Scouts be abolished replaced by just Scouts? What about locker rooms? Shall we say one room for all because we don't want any descrimination....where does the line lie?

Before you think IM being too sarcastict here, think a bit. Augusta is a privately owned club. They allow a particular event to USE their facility.
Why (as long as they don't dictate who can be in the event) do they then have to invite someone they do not want as a member into their private membership?

Where does a persons right to associate with other like minded people to the exclusion of other like minded people end? Does it exist at all? Are we all to be forced to associate with people that we do not want to? By what moral imperitive is it evil for people to form clubs of any kind with exclusive memberships? </font>

<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="3" color="#f683ad">
Just thought of an excellent reason why someone who hates golf would play all the time....its called "Business". Thats how I got started playing (when I did). As a lot of people know...there is a LOT of business that gets done on the golf course in the course of 18 holes. </font>

Putting aside the male/female issue for a moment, then, how does everyone feel about the ruling about the handicapped golfer who is allowed to use a cart on a non-cart course? Isn't that giving him an advantage similar to a forward tee? http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/s/diablo.gif

[ 05-24-2003, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: mysticelt ]

<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="3" color="#f683ad">
I know it is going to get me tons o hate mail, but if you cannot compete under the same rules as everyone else..you don't belong in that tournament. Play in those tourneys that cater to those with special needs.

The whole idea behind sporting events are to (in theory) identify "The Best" at something, Superbowl? The best Football team, World Series? The best baseball team, America's Cup? The best yacht crew. PGA tourney? Best golfer. It is the reason the tournement exists....not to see how well we can water down the competition so that there is no difference between the winner and the looser.

Edit: If we are going to make special allowances for people, we might as well just quit keeping score so that no one wins and no one looses and everyone can say they competed....they already do this at many public schools in the US. No one has their self esteem endangered by loosing because they do not allow any one to win or loose. :rolleyes: </font>

[ 05-24-2003, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[img]smile.gif[/img] Blind eye huh [img]smile.gif[/img] - well there are two of us here who think we have both eyes open, but surely that couldn't be right if we were in disagreement - could it [img]smile.gif[/img] .

I have made no bones about the fact that the two tours are split on gender grounds for perfectly valid strength reasons. Women cannot regularly hope to compete against the men on an equal footing because of it. You only have to note the manner in which the strongest men (Woods, Mickelson, Els, Singh et al)and the strongest women (Sorenstam, Webb) tend to dominate the respective tours. Sure they don't in all the time and the shorter hitters bob up here and there, but a good long player will average a lot mre success than a good short player. So answering your question (you must think this is a change for me [img]smile.gif[/img] ), it is not fair that men who aren't capable of qualifying for the PGA tour go play on the LPGA tour, because they maintain the gender strength bias. Being lesser male players does nothing to remove that bias - if they are not good enough for the PGA then there is the NIKE tour - if theya re old eneough then they can go onto the LEGENDS tour - the weaker ladies have none of these options I would hasten to point out (in the interest of fairness [img]smile.gif[/img] ).

How my support for "fairness" over "bias" leads you to the conclusion that I believe men do not deserve the same rights as women I am not quite sure - that is a fuzzy brand of logic at best. The rest of your post goes on to accuse of double standards et al and "As long as I feel it is right" - nothing to respond to here, because they are just emotive statements thrown in as if to suggest to the world that you had already proven your point, and could now take the time to drive it home.

Case dismissed.

<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="#f683ad">
Can you help me to understand why it is so important for Augusta to have a Female "Member"? Are we then to say we need to do away with ALL clubs and organizations that segregate on the basis of sex? Shall all the YMCA's allow women and all YWCA's allow men? Boy and Girl Scouts be abolished replaced by just Scouts? What about locker rooms? Shall we say one room for all because we don't want any descrimination....where does the line lie?

Before you think IM being too sarcastict here, think a bit. Augusta is a privately owned club. They allow a particular event to USE their facility.
Why (as long as they don't dictate who can be in the event) do they then have to invite someone they do not want as a member into their private membership?

Where does a persons right to associate with other like minded people to the exclusion of other like minded people end? Does it exist at all? Are we all to be forced to associate with people that we do not want to? By what moral imperitive is it evil for people to form clubs of any kind with exclusive memberships? </font> </font>[/QUOTE]Nice to see someone so protective of male rights MagiK [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] - it is a cruel callous world we live in, and it lightens my heart to see a beacon of support against the issues that are grinding us menfolk down.

If you go back to the full post that you cut this excerpt from Ray, you will see that my statements weren't used as an attack to try and change those male bastions (I've been into the Royal St Georges clubhouse, and rest asusred, those of us posessing a penis are treated right royally [img]smile.gif[/img] ). They were used in an allegorical sense to relate two things (the female member issue at those instititions AND women golfers being able to stand toe to toe with the men and compete effectively day in day out) that could well happen in the future, but are unlikely to happen in any short time frame.

My post never in fact indicated my support or otherwise for the changing of these institutions. In fact my belief is that these organistions should change if they wish too, but have the right to remain as they are if they so choose.

See - even you struggled with it in the end [img]smile.gif[/img] . I think my query was along the lines of why would someone pay that much "all the time" Ray. It sure gets expensive to do that "all the time" - especially if you HATE it.

Having said that, I applaud Crimson Blade's follow up past where he better explained his position. As for any unnecessary directness - I think that while you would like to score points at my expense Ray (whoops - airball), if there are any issues that is a matter between CB and myself. His follow up post didn't suggest it, but if there are I am sure he would PM me about it. It just so happens to be my normal response that if someone pops up and shouts vehemently "I HATE ....." I usually say something along the lines of "No, tell me how you really feel" [img]smile.gif[/img] .

Hello Mysticelt [img]smile.gif[/img] .

Always a touchy one this issue, and I have a feet in both camps. While I like the traditional approach that it is a physical test as well as a skill test (ie all the other players are going to tire more by walking the course for 4 days and tired players = bad shots at the end of the day), I am also dead set against barring someone from competing on the skill grounds of a medical disability that only limits their walking.

The advantage that Casey Martin is getting by using the cart is in terms of freshness at the end of the round. If a guys medical condition limits his walking AND taxes his strength during the round then I believe there is absolutely no competitive advantage (because they have rules proscribing his use of the cart to protect against other potential advantages - ie no roof even if it rains - a limit on driving forward to inspect the lay of the land etc). Is this as much advantage as a forward tee - no, I really don't think so - maybe a couple of feet per hole [img]smile.gif[/img] .

In the Casey Martin case "I feel" that he probably gets a minor advantage in freshness at the end of a round because his physical conditioning is good and I suspect his small amount of walking doesn't tire him out. "I would say this was about" 1/3 of a shot over a 4 round tournament on 75% of the field (not a third of a shot per round and no advantage over the fitter athletes). How do you compare stamina and mental toughness? My estimate is entirely subjective and is only "my estimate".

So the short answer is that I think he should be allowed to compete, even though I am not entirely happy about all aspects.