<font color="#ffccff">Errrr I ment West Wing. For those who don't know, Left...I mean West Wing is a once popular television show here in the US.

Due to recent political climates and bad scripting the viewer ratings for this show have been plummeting. There are talks of canceling the show, which is what normally happens when a shows ratings start to slip.

The ratings drops may or may not have anything to do with the shows more recent commentary on the current real world US government, be that as it may, the screen actors guild SAG is now howling that the shows possible cancelation is due to McCarthyism and that the actors are having their right to work violated.
I think it is despicable for SAG to blame ratings (or lack there of) on the US Government. the US viewing public is at best a fickle beast...if you make your show too controvetial, you loose the viewers.....guess I am just on a [img]graemlins/rant.gif[/img] </font>

Well,it just sounds like excuses from the SAG to me ;) [img]tongue.gif[/img]

It's because they let Rob Lowe leave. The number of female viewers plummeted, if the women I know are an indication.

Recent scripting is pretty well stepping to the "party line" on military issues. The fictional nation is embroiled in an imbroglio in an African nation that it undertook for one reason - to prevent genocide. In fact, it contained the line last episode that "every 'civil war' in Africa is just a buzzword excuse for genocide."

It still hangs far left with ideas such as: the US must increase foreign aid dollars, you could impose a 1% tax increase on incomes over $10million and use the $$$$ to fund a change in the tax code making college tuition 100% deductible (I really like that one), etc.

But, on the war bit, the West Wing is going to war already. ;)

And while we're dubbing it "Left" Wing, which it usually is, I'll note that it's pretty difficult to expect Hollywood to crank out too much right wing stuff - the "artists" are always the largest "liberal" group in any society. Republican actors are a rarity, and even where they do exist they're pretty liberal for a conservative. ;)

<font color="#ffccff">To be honest, I have never watched even one episode all the way through :D Colleen on the other hand has the whole season stored on her TIVO [img]smile.gif[/img] She too is a bit peeved that Rob left.

West or left I use the title just to tweak some friends [img]smile.gif[/img]

You are right about the artists typicly being of a liberal bent. Probably a left/right brain thing :D </font>

<font color='white'? Thought I might throw these links in-

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=31313

and

http://www.nbc4.tv/sh/entertainment/...04-060311.html

It doenst bother me one bit if the show dies. Like MagiK I never watched one episode of it. </font>

Remember, Hollywood is as Liberal as the Media--maybe even more so. :rolleyes:

I did like West Wing when it first started, but this season and last has really gone down hill. oh well...

Same same, though I did not even watch the first series that much.

But I genuinely thought it was a typically right wing gung ho American scripting.

I have never seen the show, and I agree with MagiK (c'mon, it happens at least once or twice a month :D ) that it it ain't rating then the show goes to the scrap heap.

One thing I did listen too yesterday though was a program on the ABC radio (our national broadcaster), and it was discussing (and building a case for) what it percieved to be an increasing trend back towards McCarthyism in the US. Made me think about some of the stuff on those website links that were discussed on an earlier thread about actors and their views and all the "Un-American" claims that were in both the thread and the website links.

We joke about McCarthyism being historical and behind us now, but the radio program left me wondering if the "bad ole days" aren't in for somewhat of a comeback.

<font color="#ffccff">Just out of curiosity, and completely [img]graemlins/offtopic.gif[/img] Was Joe McCarthy wrong? Granted he was a D*ck about it, and went completely overboard, but in light of what was revealed decades later...was he wrong? </font>

never really like that series, too much talking.

MagiK, go see/rent the movie "Rock the Craddle" (or maybe "Craddle will Rock"). It's got J and J Cusak in it. It specifically addresses the impact of McCarthyism on Hollywood and artistic life.

What was wrong with belonging to the communist party? NOTHING. Belief systems are protected in the USA. No one knew this new governmental system would become THE ENEMY until Congress started calling them in 5-10 yrs. later to grill them for 4-5 days about one single "communist party" meeting they went to in college. And, if they didn't cough up names, they were labelled PINKO and ruined.

Note that there is potential for abuse that McCarthy exploited: the subpoena powers of Congress. Congress can make you testify about any issue it considers important for as long as it wants, and you cannot object, and there is no judge or jury to protect you. Q.v. Clinton hearings for other abuses of the Congressional subpoena power.

Traitors were the issue. McCarthyism ferreted out "deviants" and people who thought different. Just because your nuclear bomb killed 2 terrorists does NOT mean it was justified to ruin all the other lives. That's a fair analogy for McCarthyism.

Ah, but having the most intelligent and witty dialogue is the one thing that makes the show stand out. Like the politics or not, the scripting is excellent. I like it because their conversations are much like those around a busy law office. :D

I dont know you to well MagiK are you being sarcastic? I'm not trying to be funny myself, it's just that I can't judge your comment.

Actually, MagiK is right. "Tail-Gunner Joe" was a jerk, but he *was* right about some things: there were communists in the State Department taking orders fom Moscow, the American Communist Party was a Stalinist tool, and the Rosebergs were as guilty as sin and deserved what they got. All according to recently released Russian records.

None of which justified the witch hunt in Hollywood, Attalus.

[edit] PS: Anybody got a link to info re: these Russian records? Not challenging your statements at all, Atty and Messrs. Muppets. It's just that I am uninformed on this issue and would like to see what's up. ;)

[ 03-05-2003, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

Actually, MagiK is right. "Tail-Gunner Joe" was a jerk, but he *was* right about some things: there were communists in the State Department taking orders fom Moscow, the American Communist Party was a Stalinist tool, and the Rosebergs were as guilty as sin and deserved what they got. All according to recently released Russian records.</font>[/QUOTE]I'll take it that it was serious *sigh*

Please dont try and justify this evil and vicious bullying. The U.S.A. own Spannish inquasition is a sad stain in your history books. Just because a few commies were caught does in no way begin to mask the horrendous wrongs commited to innocent people.

Which was the greater sin, the supporters of this vindictiveness or the silent majority? :mad: I hope their is not a growing movement in U.S.A. to try and alter history and to gloss over the wrongs of that era.

Davros, The problem with using the term McCarthyism to a non Goverment action or entity is that it is BS. In a free society free peoples have the choice of what they want to watch or not watch on TV, at the moives, etc. If they (the actors) for what ever reason produce a product the the people don't want the peolpe can't be made to take it. In a free society people DO NOT have to like each other, give a rat's rear end if others are happy, sad or if others delicate pshycie is warped or not. Free peoples are only required to follow what the laws of their country says they must do. ie: No open hunting season on the Hollywood left ;)
People have just as much right to call the Hollywood left "Pinko Un-American Bed Wetting Crybaby Sacks of Horse Manure". As the Hollywood Left has to speak out against the war.
Now I find it extremly IRONIC that the SAG would use the term McCarthyism because free peoples are exercising their right to do want they want, when wasn't it the Hollywood crowd that lead the fight to Boycot tuna that didn't fall into their diffinition of Dolphin safe? That is why I wouldn't piss on the Hollywood left if they were on fire, they are willing to use a boycot that suits their purposes but cry like two year olds when it is used against them. As far as I can tell most of the actors are of legal age to be concidered grown-ups.I learned a long time ago if you piss-off youe customers, you have noby to blame but yourself, when they are nolonger interested in your product.

Correct only if you are talking about government intervention, private individuals can hunt witches all they want ;) as long as they break no laws.

<font color="#ffccff">TL, I said in my post, that he was way out of line in how he did things, but the core idea was that Communists had infiltrated, it was born out in later decades that he was right. [img]smile.gif[/img] I disagree with his methods and I disagree with the over reaction, but the man was right, communists/stalinists were definately infiltrating government and at the time it was an issue. Attalus is right, there were people who deserved exactly what they got. In 1945 when the atomic bomb was exploded in Japan, Stalin already knew about the weapons, and he had the plans for making his own. There were communists who were committing treason, McCarthy just was an extremist about finding them. I acknowledge that he did wrong, but his basis was corect. </font>

I dont know you to well MagiK are you being sarcastic? I'm not trying to be funny myself, it's just that I can't judge your comment.</font>[/QUOTE]<font color="#ffccff">Hi Wellard, no problem, I was being litteral. No sarcasm no trick. McCarthy comitted an injustice to the american people but the basic reasoning behind what he did were on target....see the more recent posts [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>

<font color="#ffccff">I agree it was a sad misuse of power. However he was right. There were comunists comitting treason selling american military and government secrets to Stalin....do you support helping Stalin? The man that most people regard as responsible for more murders than any other single human being?
</font>

Those people WERE traitors, and it's time to bring back HUAC to deal with the current ones.

hmmm, 170 posts so far Holywarrior. I wonder how many of them contain the word 'traitor'.
[img]tongue.gif[/img]

TRAITORS! TRAITORS EVERYWHERE!!!!!!

[ 03-06-2003, 05:03 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

OK - had to go to google to look up what it meant :

House Un-American Activities Committee

So perhaps the radio program that I talked about was not all that far off beam. I have seen a few calls lately on this forum for the HUAC (and I take it I am correct in inferring "McCarthyism" - I'm sure someone will help put me right if I'm not) to make a return.

Have to admit I am with you Wellard - I would not want to see a return to those dark days. Why does history always seem determined to repeat itself - Salem, McCarthy, ..... . Previous posters have indicated that some good things were uncovered by McCarthy, but even those that pointed that out seem to be in agreement that there were terrible abuses and wrongs done to people's lives at both of the witch-hunts that I have named.

I understand your senitment but bringing back HUAC for the Hollywood crowd? Like it or not they have the right to be Crybaby Bedwetters under the US Constitution. IMHO a better course would be to make them irrelevant by not buying their products, since they seem to think that they are intitled to any economic gains or fame WE give them. Just quit giving them the fame and economic gains. Besides do you know what kind of Charlie Foxtrot it would be to have them whinning and crying infront of the American people, remember it is their job to act and incite emotions from people. Then you have to thunk about the lawyers and deal with all of that too ;)
Now If hostilities start any US citizen on Iraqi soil giving aid and confort to the Iraqis ie: human shields should be brought up on Treason charges and if found guilty of those charges have their citizenship revoked and banned from ever setting foot on US soil again in fact not even be allowed to be buried on US soil. The US Constitution give us the right to speak freely not act freely, NO country give it citizens the right to act freely!

[ 03-06-2003, 04:19 AM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]

<font color="#ffccff">J.D. We all have the freedom to act. What we lackis the "right" to avoid consequences of those actions.

Davros, I think that what you have heard about McCarthyism (I dont even know if Im spelling his name right) and black balling, and oppression going on here is pretty much a load of crap.

Seriously I have not seen any indication that I am not or any one else is not free to speak my or their minds.

What we ARE seeing here is the American public sending a message to the hollywood types that if they get too extreme and too vocal, that they will have to accept the consequences of being vocal and radical. The average television watcher in the US doesn't want to hear actors telling them how they should live or what their politics should be.

The Government on the other hand is not doing anything to inhibit those actors from demonstrating, from trashing the president or from going to palces like Iraq to shake hands with Saddam.

McCarthyism was the abuse of congressional power pure and simple. That is not what is happening now.</font>

Seriously - on this occasion, I am hoping that MagiK is the one that has the right of things this time and that McCarthyism stays well and truly dead.

On a side note I agree that the people have a similar right to protest and not buy the products of the stars and be verbal and vocal and visual in their disagreement. Do the also have the right to brand and smear individual actors with the epiphet "Un-American". If someone (be it an actor or you and me or Jed Bush for example)from one side of politics objects to a war or a government policy that is coming from the other side - does that make them Un-American? This smearing of people (actors in this case) as pursuing Un-American activities is where this whole spectre of the past seems to be looming.

Well, judging from some of the things they are saying, I would think "unAmerican" would be mild. Reminds me of when Maxine Waters was on TV, talking about how bad America is and was, then defying her opponents to criticise her patriotism. I certainly do. However, bitching about the government is as American as it gets, IMHO.

Attalus, I can't really tell which stance you're taking, but I will agree that bitching about our government is VERY American and is, in fact, one of the great "inventions" of the forefathers (freedom of speech being a guaranteed right, I mean).

Let's not forget that whether they be protesting war, protesting abortion, or arguing that a statute of the Madonna made out of feces is "art," it is a bedrock tenet of America that absolute freedom to voice a minority, wacky, and/or dissident view is a GOOD THING. Because the DISCOURSE in itself is a GOOD THING. Because the constitution protects MINORITY OPINIONS (the majority opinion needs no such protection).

As far as I'm concerned organize all the marches you please. Let your opinion be known. The more vocal you are, the better the rest of the population and our leaders can make wise choices.

Oh, and the day the HOUA comes back is the day we really begin slipping into one of those "regime"-type pitfalls. It's the day I'll be glad I own a passport. You cannot discourage free speech or free association - it threatens our nation's very identity as well as its security much more than some bomb-totting dirty extremist bent on martyrdom ever will.

And, if Hollywood activists suffer consequences from espousing unpopular views - well, as stated, that is simply the risk they take. They are free to say what they like, but nothing will ever legislate people agree or like it.

BTW - a HUGE march here in Chi-town last night, with an impromptu march circling downtown. Mostly students, led by Jessie Jackson and a few other polemico losers who don't realize that nobody gives them any credit whatsoever anymore. All the students walked out of class in protest. Protest.... right. At least I was always honest and called it "skipping." :D

I quite agree with you, Timber, since I said that bitching about the Government is as "American" as it gets. What does hack me off is for people to voice detestation of the country, and then object when anyone questions their patriotism. Webster's says: pa·tri·ot·ism
Pronunciation: 'pA-trE-&-"ti-z&m, chiefly British 'pa-
Function: noun
Date: circa 1726
: love for or devotion to one's country.
I find it hard to apply to people who detest the country that they live in. That doesn't mean they don't have the right to say it. They do. They just are not being patriotic.

In the over all sense that we can choose for ourselves what we are going to do as Humans, yes we all have the freedom to act. But In the sense used as "Freedom of speach" = right, ability to say something. We don't have the freedom to act = right, ability to do something. We are still subject to the what the law says we can and can't do.

[ 03-07-2003, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]

hmmm, 170 posts so far Holywarrior. I wonder how many of them contain the word 'traitor'.
[img]tongue.gif[/img]

TRAITORS! TRAITORS EVERYWHERE!!!!!!</font>[/QUOTE]Most of the recent ones contain the acronym HUAC. At least this one is an advance on 'Bring back the HUAC' :D

Seriously - on this occasion, I am hoping that MagiK is the one that has the right of things this time and that McCarthyism stays well and truly dead.

**SNIP stuff about actors***.

<font color="#ffccff">Did I actually say codswallop? :D

I really don't think there is any pressure from washington being put on these actors or shows. The American public on the other hand is not constrained at all about saying what they think about the show or the actor...and that is part of being a public figure is about...if you make a personal stand...be prepared for the american public to let you know that they think...calling names, boycoting etc...why do you think you can almost never pin a politician down about what he personally believes?</font></font>[/QUOTE]

[ 03-10-2003, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

<font color=orange>I don't mind actors and singers protesting, but what I do mind is that I have no way to respond to them on the same level. When they get on these awards shows and state their case it's a one sided debate.

BTW, just exactly what is CODSWALLOP? Is it bad sperm for the cods or what? :D </font>

[ 03-10-2003, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: Sir Taliesin ]

Well, Sir T., the good news is that while you can't platform like they can, you also don't end up looking as stoopid. Sheryl Crow is a wonderful artist, but her ineptitude for public protest was seen when her hair covered part of the protest message on her guitar strap at the Grammys: The message resulting was simply "War."

Fred Durst was equally stoopid (when wasn't he?) in stating "Just so we are all in agreeance" about the war protest. That's right - "agreeance." www.dictionary.com , Fred, please. When you speak at the Grammy's, you need a better vocabulary than "break something."

Let us not forget Sean Penn, the new mellenium's poster boy for non-aggression, who has now admitted he was used by Saddam.

So, while these folks have a platform to speak from, they all end up looking about as smart as Dan Quayle did when he voiced his opinion on Murphy Brown.

For the same reason I wouldn't care what Tom Ridge thought about imagery in "The Hours," I do not care what Martin Sheen thinks about war in Iraq. While Sheen is a fine actor, a year spent drinking in the Phillipines with Marlin Brando while making a war flick does not equate to being a soldier and playing Sorkin's pipe dream of what Clinton should have been [fn.1] on West/Left Wing in no way educates one about the facts behind US/Iraq politics. Puh-lease, when he speaks out about the war I am stricken by the fact that he looks immensely more intelligent when clumsily hitting on that young blonde chick in the video store on the "Visa Check Card" commercial. :D

[fn.1] Credit to Attalus for this biting comment. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

I don't know about that TL drinking with Marlin Brando could be considered a pretty tough duty station. ;)

Fair enough, John D. The "flick" is of course Apocalypse Now. I did read that things got pretty hairy on the set during a tropical storm that shut things down for two weeks. Purportedly, things weren't so bad until the vodka ran out. :D