Well, let me toss out a grenade. I read on the Greedy website today an interesting discussion that the American education crisis (read: we have the dumbest kids in the first world, folks) could be fixed by banning private schools.

Bush's idea for school vouchers is certainly idiotic. If you don't think so, I'll be happy to explain why, but it comes down to supply and demand in its simplest form. Succinctly: there is a list as long as my arm of parents fighting to spend $17K a year for blazers and ugly ties at Country Day Academy, so throwing more people into the "buying pool" for private education does not create more spots for students or teachers at those schools - but instead only raises the price of those schools through the competitive buying process. It's a supply side deficit that's the real problem.

That said, what about banning private schools? If all the $200K+ crowd had to send their kids to school with the plebians, they just might have the political will in towns across America to fix the schools through local school board meetings, etc. Plus, the tax base of those schools will not only increase, but being tied to property values, they will increase by a geometric amount on a "per student" basis.

Thoughts?

Sorry, can't agree. I don't make anywhere near $200K, but when I have kids, my kids will probably go to private school. Why?
1) Politians keep throwing around how bad our education system is, but everytime the new budgets come around, what's the first to get cut? (this seems to be true no matter what party the polititions are in). The schools where I am are hurting, BAD, and the governor just announced a HUGE cut to education, so how exactly do they expect the schools to be able to educate when they have to cut good teachers, need to make do with outdated books and supplies, etc.

2) I can't stand those standardized tests they make us do (don't know if this is just a NY thing or all over the country). Why? Because I can recall the last 3 years of school, we never got to really learn anything, instead it was just spent regurgitating what the teacher told us so that we'd do good on the tests because school funding is based on those tests, therefore schools force teachers to forgo actually teaching students and getting them excited and curious about learning to prep them to be mindless robots. Interestingly enough, studies are now showing that students that go through this fail in college because they don't know how to do critical thinking, they only know how to memorize facts and regurgitate them.

Until our government gets it that we need to spend more on quality education for our children and less on special interests, my opinion of this will remain the same.
Also, my best friend teaches in the public schools up here, and she said she'll never send her kids to a NY public school until they improve (this is not a slam against the teachers, they are too often stuck between a rock and a hard place because I'm sure they'd much rather be able to spend 2 extra weeks talking about WWII because kids are excited to learn then rush them through it so that they can cram in all that they are now required to teach in one years time).

Interesting comments harleyquinn, especially since it was the New York education tax cuts that sparked the debate on the GreedyAssociates board.

Yeah [img]smile.gif[/img] don't get me started on how much that angered me when Pataki announced the new budget. We spend so little on education and then wonder why all these other contries kick our butt when it comes to what their kids know.

While I don't agree with banning private schools, because I think parents should have that option, I do have an interesting suggestion that I was talking about with my bf last night. If our politions made $25 K /year instead of what most of them make, meaning that they had to struggle for $$ to pay for their kids college, needed to worry about health care for their family, needed to worry about paying the mortgage, and were only a paycheck or 2 away from needing public assistince, I wonder how much their priorities would change. How much money would they suddenly find in the budget for schools, welfare, vocational training for people, universal health care, and so many badly needed services? Just an interesting idea that I'll throw out there instead of banning public schools.
Always gets me when they get a raise right after telling us how there's no money in the budget for anything.

Ok, I promise, no more rants :rolleyes:

[ 02-05-2003, 04:24 PM: Message edited by: harleyquinn ]

Sorry to hear that. I always kinda liked Pataki - a Repug with a bit of environmental backbone. Plus, he was nice enough to come to have lunch with our firm and its clients once a year when I was an attorney in New York - TO THE TUNE OF $25K PER PLATE!!!!!!!!

And, that's the price we had to pay EVEN THOUGH we had a 28-yr retired NY State Senator sitting in the office next to me who was friends with Pataki and had almost all of the NY Senate licking his boots when he was Chair of the Finance Committee (which in NY, like in most states, is the legislative equivalent of GOD).

God, now I'm deviating into campaign reform. Forgive me. [img]graemlins/offtopic.gif[/img]

I wouldn't say America has the dumbest kids. Unlucky, maybe. Beware private schools, btw-I go to a small, state-run school in SE London and our results beat the local private schools :rolleyes:
Personally I intend to become a teacher myself (WHY? :D ). I hope this education thing gets sorted out. If there's education, there won't be another president who, on hitting his dog with a tennis ball, shrieks "I hitteded ma dog!"

<font color="cyan">yep it seems good to me (socialism is the answer to everything!) but it would create such a backlash that no politician would risk it. same with hospitals and the like. But I would allow private schooling out of hours, for those that must give there children religous studies. By doing this it would leave the so called elite schools to be attained through good grades and hard work not because dads got a good paycheck.
Before I get flamed by everyone, please think of this. If public schools were improved to the standerd that they should be then what would be the point of private schools?</font>

ps my spelling and poor grammer is brought to you by underfunded public schools :D

Kaltia,
Best of luck to you, and I hope you do get to be a teacher. I think it's one of the most important jobs and financially unappreciated job there is!
love the president line [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img]

Thanks, Harleyquacker! :D
I plan to take a double English/History degree and teach both those subjects in GB for a while, but really I want to teach in the US *flush*

Interesting you bring up Religious education, Wellard. On that note:

Under the voucher system, the kids who use vouchers to get bused to the private schools (which are *often* religious) must be allowed to abstain from the religious services. Now, that's wrong -- make a Catholic school take a student in and then somehow *not* school them on the religious portions??? Craaazzzy.

Thanks, Harleyquacker! :D
I plan to take a double English/History degree and teach both those subjects in GB for a while, but really I want to teach in the US *flush*</font>[/QUOTE]Of course you do - especially if you want to teach College-level or higher. We may have crap high schools, but our colleges are so good, students actually catch up and surpass their peers in other countries.

Hmm I have never been a big fan of the American education system. Perhaps one should ask why students attending private schools get a better education. The only thing I can come up with is funding, that is a lower teacher per student average and better literature. I´m not sure about the quality of teachers so I will refrain from mentioning that as an argument. What would happen to the American students of the same amount of funding went into public schools? Better public schools would be able to compete with private schools and offer a high quality education. Is 17k per year the average cost for attending a private school? I´m not sure banning private schools is the best alternative, perhaps a more prolonged liquidation would be better. But I for one don´t understand why money should be the determining factor for a good education.

Why not? as long as those abstaining from the religous studies had to do some moral or civic studies in lieu. But the real answer imo is to strictly moniter religious education and perhaps make that part of a night school or sunday school thing. that way all children are learning from the same page and there would be less friction from minority religions or the majority agnostics

But, Wellard, in the USA you have simply crossed a fairly bright line: that of mixing government and religion. And, as any catholic school student can tell you, you can't very well take the Catholocism out of Catholic school - even by a little bit.

Don't worry about your stupid kids - with the wages US companies can afford, you can always import smart forigners to do the thinking for you ;)

More seriously - I don't think that abolishing the private schools are the answer to education problems - upgrading/improving the public schools are, even if means raising taxes :eek: *gasp*

This grammar (and punctuation :rolleyes: ) are also brought to you by a public school [img]tongue.gif[/img]

<font color="#ffccff">Fact #1 my kids learn more faster in private shcools not hampered by government restrictions and programs and the NEA and AFT.

Fact #2 There is no legal or constitutional reason for making private schools illegal.

Fact #3 It is the people who tell government what to do andnot the other way around...or at least it is supposed to be that way.

Anyway you look at it, three strikes and yerrrr outta there ;) </font>

Gee, MagiK, so... um.... nice.... to see you trolling the IWF once again. [img]graemlins/dontknowaboutyou.gif[/img] We really have missed the Grumpy Old Muppets lately. But... um... come to think of it, just don't post on any of MY threads, okay? :D
[img]graemlins/kidding.gif[/img]

Its a two stage project Timber. First improve state schools so that the point of private schools is lost. Then when a more level playing field is achieved we can get to work on church schools (i'd rather save that one for another thread though) But the children come first so, Yes to banning private schools unless out of normal hours AFTER the public school standard is raised

<font color="#ffccff">Willow, MOST US private schools are run by small religious groups who have very little funding, there are tens of thousands of these little "christian schools" floating around out there and Im sure other denominations have them as well, what I do know is that the big BIG BIG difference between them and public schools is discipline, and the priciples of accountability and responsibility that are abscent in public schools.....
There also seems to be a very large difference in the parent participation too, the parents are way more involved and encouraged to be, where as in the Maryland public school systems for example, you are never allowed contact with the childs teachers outside very strictly controlled administration set up situations which discourages meetings by setting time requirements aimed at making meeting dificult and inconvenient. Private schools work with the parents schedules and take a far more personal approach to students and teachers. Blame it on Class sizes but the statistics on it don't bear itout. </font>

Well, one thing is selectivity. Public schools must teach to the least common denominator - and are structured that way. Heck, I guess all classrooms teach to the near-to-least common denominator.

But, in the private schools, little mary or johnnie has to have xx% in their grades from elsewhere and score xx% on some tests before they can gain admission. So, it's implicit that private schools will have better kids - they don't accept the dummies. [Edit] NORMALLY, that is. ;)

[ 02-05-2003, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

But would it be so terribly difficult to implement this to public schools? (parent participation excepted perhaps ;) ) Of course it would make an impact if every teacher were responsible for 20 srtudents instead of 40. He/she would even have time to meet up with the students parents. I´m not arguing for banning private schools altohugh it would seem like that since I gang up with Timber in a thread named "Banning private schools" LOL. I´m for raising the standards of public schools up to at least the same levels as private schools. Wouldn´t it be nice for you to only have to pay half for an education just as good? If public schools were as good as private, banning private schools wouldn´t be necessary. Most of them would probably deteriorate
by them self.

First off, throwing money at the problem will not fix things. I don't have time right now to elaborate much. But considder the case of New Jersey. They have for years been trying to improve the quality of education by filtering money away from the "rich" schools to the "poor" schools of Camden, Newark, Jersey City, ect. Yet still, the kids from the "poor" areas continue to fail while the suburban schools are some of the better in the country.

There is a much deeper dynamic going on, and there is no simple fix.

Oh, and I disagree with banning private schools. Gov already has way too much assumed responsibility.

Timber, you have touched on one reason that private schools do a better job than public schools: students that are preselected for intelligence. There are others: smaller class size (as <font color=deeppink>Willow</font> touched on) and, more importantly, parents that are involved with and keep up with their childrens' education. This has been shown time and again to be the strongest determinant of educational outcome, even more than intelligence. Also, the school and teachers are responsible to the parents for performance, so they can't just show movies during class. Public schools are insulated by teachers' unions and the politicl; process. Also, public schools must accept unmotivated and disruptive children, which private schools would never tolerate, giving learning a better environment.

<font color="#ffccff">You know...I read this and then I thought about it...then I slept on it...and all I could think to say in response is..."Dude! That was HARSH." I now you said you were just joking and all but it just didn't come accross that way. I don't believe that you can classify me as a troll and I really hope you weren't serious about not posting on your threads.

And Back ON topic, just wanted to throw out one more anecdotal tidbit about the private school my son started in. At 4 he went into a "generic type" christian school...I was not thrilled with the half hour of religion he had to sit through each day, but in the end it was a small price to pay to watch my son learn to read a full two years before the public school would have required him to. As for his "smaller class size" there were 42 children in his class.

Edit: My apologies if I was too sensitive in my first paragraph, but that is the thought I was left with.</font>

[ 02-06-2003, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

Awwwww....*hugs MagiK :D Don't worry, Unca M [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Timber, what you said about American colleges-
That doesn't seem right to me. How can one person go from crap high-school to fantastic college? Usually, people expect the next educaton step to be their last. Either your high schools are better than you claim or your colleges are worse.

[ 02-06-2003, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: Kaltia ]

And what got cut in the NY budget this year? DING DING DING...YES, you win the prize! EDUCATION both at the lower and higher levels. The state University is going to increase it's tuition by approximately $1500. And major cuts are being made in the K-12 system, which will devolve to local town /city governments to cover. Guess what? The ones who suffer are the kids.

I too have a friend who teaches...well used to teach (she got disgusted and quit last year) in schools up in the northeast US. She and her husband are stretching their budget and finding unique ways to save money because they are now planning to send their second child to private school when she starts middle school next year (her brother is halfway through High School in the same private school). Why? Because they took their daughter to the PUBLIC school that she would be moving up to as a 7th grader next year and at the 'public relations' shindig they announced they would no longer have special classes for the gifted students and were going to trim a few of their programs that the poor kid was so anxious to get into. She stopped and looked at her parents and said there was no way she wanted to be in that school now, as she'd never learn anything- and this is from a girl who is popular, bright and LOVES school! She's been in public schools all the way up to this level and now is suddenly willing to take a stricter atmosphere in order to LEARN something!

Her mother has seen public schools and had already decided she wouldn't teach in them any more due to discipline issues and budget shortcuts that were being covered by resourceful administrators by making teachers cover EVERY period of the day. No breaks for bathroom and no breaks for prepping their materials, they simply cover for any other teacher who is out instead of paying a substitute! Sheesh!

I agree, the public school system needs help, but taking away the only decent alternatives in the meantime, isn't the answer.

[ 02-06-2003, 09:10 AM: Message edited by: Cloudbringer ]

<font color="#ffccff">You know...I read this and then I thought about it...then I slept on it...and all I could think to say in response is..."Dude! That was HARSH." I now you said you were just joking and all but it just didn't come accross that way. I don't believe that you can classify me as a troll and I really hope you weren't serious about not posting on your threads.</font></font>[/QUOTE]MagiK - I REALLY WAS ONLY JOKING!!!!!!! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] Seriously, I thought I put in the appropriate tags. Troll = joke. Don't post on my threads = joke. [img]graemlins/kidding.gif[/img] = joke tag. I was GLAD TO SEE YOU POSTING AGAIN. I recalled a self-imposed hiatus, and noticed a drop-off in your participation. Then, I noticed you were posting again. Gosh, you namby pamby sensitive liberal. :D :D :D :D :D *Thinks about hugging MagiK, then remembers people are watching*

Back on-topic. I think public schools can work. This is not a thread where I advocate nix'ing private schools. I posted someone else's thoughts, which I'd found interesting.

My public schools system was fine. Yes, I had to put up with losers holding the class back (nods to Attalus's quote on pre-selection for intelligence), but they also had academic teams and programs for "tifted and galented" :D students too. Yes, my education was not what the private schools kids had - as I found out in college. Course, private school students were, mostly, all wealthy then, so I'm sure their life would have been "enriched" in many ways mine had not no matter how you slice it.

But, in today's world I will have NO choice but to send my kids to private school. The public school system (exception: many rural areas) is just scary. And, since I live in a large urban area, the difference is only exacerabated.

BTW, to you folks discussing New York education. I never was part of the NY state secondary school system - but when I lived in Syracuse there were some public schools, 2 or 3 of them, in and around the city that were some of the best in the nation. I had those schools tossed at me as one more "perk" of living there when the firm was trying to entice me to go there, as well. I don't recall many of their names, but I do remember Fayette-Manlius as one of them.

Kaltia, it is an unfortunate fact of life, here, that public high schools are merely caretaker organizations, except for the "gifted and talented" programs, and special magnet schools. The first year of college is to get everyone on the same page, and then they really start to educate you. But our University system is consistently rated the best in the world. And, you are right, what's with thequotes?

[ 02-06-2003, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: Attalus ]

Attalus-sorry to break it to you-Japan has the best universities. Along with the most productive country (the citizens there produce more) and the highest suicide rate :( (because they're so productive. They have no holidays or weekends, I think)(We did it in Geography...yuchies...).

I am in no position to comment on Amnerican Universities. I know they're about equal with ours and most universities in the rest of Europe, however.

Actually, Kaltia, from what I've read, the Japanese universities are viewed as second-rate. But, I will admit, I do not have a link or anything. We do have the highest rate of foreign students entering to go to Universities, here.

Well, Kaltia, I cannot speak to Japanese universities - except that I wrote part of a textbook for the UNU located there. ;)

But, as for the productivity stats, these are 1980's figures, and was all the hubbub when I was in college. But, just the other day I saw the following figures:
- US workers now average more hours per week than Japanese, especially in salaried positions (note that in Germany there is a 35-hr work week - what have they figured out that we haven't?)
- Since 1990, the number of hours the Japanese take off of work for golf has increased roughly 6000%. I call this Americanization, a friend calls it Europeanization. Whatever.
- I can't speak to the suicide rate, other than to note, as Emil Durkheim did, that it is high in high-stress high-work-pressure countries like Japan. But, he also noted the suicide rate was very high in countries where darkness persists for much of the year - Norway being the example.

Personally, I've worked in other countries, and for better or worse we Americans are the busiest little worker bees on the planet at the current point in time.

Private schooling is banned in Peurto rico, And look at how well they turned out, sure 75% of the island is a slum, but the remaining % is mansions and gated communities right next to the slums! The poor and rich seem to get along just fine, and hey, college over there is free too! [img]tongue.gif[/img] And they've got a Wal-mart! Lucky bastards... oh right education...

now where does HOME schooling fall into all of this hmmm?

Seeing as I have been argued against (and I can't stand that) I'll just resort to my traditional saying in serious discussions: Awww, nuts. :D

[ 02-06-2003, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: Kaltia ]

Ban that too. A person has NO business trying to impart their skewed view of knowledge to their kids. ONLY a government bureaucrat should be allowed to teach! I understand home schooling worked for centuries, but simply read H. Clinton's book "It Takes a Village" and you will understand that in the modern era you are NOT capable of raising your children without the helping hand of big government.

This rant brought to you by http://www.tounge-in-cheek.com ;) :D :D

Ban that too. A person has NO business trying to impart their skewed view of knowledge to their kids. ONLY a government bureaucrat should be allowed to teach! I understand home schooling worked for centuries, but simply read H. Clinton's book "It Takes a Village" and you will understand that in the modern era you are NOT capable of raising your children without the helping hand of big government.

This rant brought to you by http://www.tounge-in-cheek.com ;) :D :D </font>[/QUOTE]<font color=orange>Glad you saidthe tongue in check part. I didn't relish seeing your head handed to you by some stay at home mom, who happens to home school her children. Personally, I don't think Home Schooling is a good idea.
There just isn't enough human interaction to suit me in a Home School environment.

Luckily, we live near a top-notch elementary school district, so I don't need to spend the money on private school, otherwise I'd be a lot poorer!

TL, I'm not sure that Rural school districts are all that good, especailly in Tennessee. Here in this state, the small city school systems are the better ones, such as oak Ridge, Knoxville and Maryville/Alcoa. The larger school systems don't seem to be as good.</font>

LOL, Timber. I am sure that Hillary is out there composing a hate letter to you. And you a Damnocrat, too. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Sir T, I know several people who homeschool their kids and at least in this state (NY) they are required to meet with others for some things like physical education. So they do have interactive days on a regular basis. My priest's wife homeschools the kids til they are ready for public school and considering all their remaining 10 kids are foster children they've adopted (the older ones are a mix of two natural children and several grown fostered children), they do pretty darned well, getting them integrated into 'society' after the hellacioius beginnings some of them had (neglected, beaten, born of alcholic mothers, addicts etc).

I definitely see the homeschooling works in their cases. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Yes, Cloudy, the last study that I saw, homeschooled kids do just as well academiclly as those sent to class. In Texas, they are not forced to get together with anything but a computer, so a lot of fundamentalist Christian children are homeschooled. Of course, the public schools loathe and despise the movement, since they don't get the state capitation money. One homeschooled lad, Piestrider's best friend since they were babies together, has never set foot in a school. The only thing he misses is athletics.

Being a statistic is always fun :D [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Being a statistic is always fun :D [img]tongue.gif[/img] </font>[/QUOTE]*smacks* Alex, hon, do me a favour and agree with me...you're supposed to be my bodyguard and all....*crys*