Guess we really HAD to Zman. ;) :D

Here is the old thread: http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=013552;p =7

Do you ask yourself this question when a squirrel, a dog or a tree dies ? Do they have an ultimate purpose in life ? Do they go to this "better place" ?

Most of religious people would say : eh of course not !

Though you see, we re just some evolved squirrels.</font>[/QUOTE]A squirrel is not born without instincts. A squirrel doesn't have to learn everything from obsevation the way a human does.

A squirrel does not question why it is here, nor get fed up and end it's own life.

A squirrel does not create works of art that express it's inner desires, dreams and hopes.

A squirrel does not hypothesise alternate scenarios before initiating an action, like a human does.

A squirrel does not get worked up in a fit over a perceived slight from it's mate.

A squirrel does not need to "get away from it all" because it's existence has become habitual and in a rut.

A squirrel does not kill for sport.

A squirrel does not embark on a search to find: It's real parents, it's homeland, what it really wants to do in it's life, a reason to keep on living.

We are considerably differnt from squirrels. ;)

[ 01-23-2003, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

(Hmm.. just had to re-log in..)

Ok, guys, but keep it polite, and I totally don't mind [img]smile.gif[/img]

Thanks!

PS: Yorick, send me some more tunes!

I knew Miss Nomer. She wasn't that huge, in fact, petite is the word that springs to mind for me.

We have these new fangled things called light switches in New Zealand. I'm pretty sure they'll catch on ;) (Sorry. Pretty lame huh? Gimme a break it's been awhile [img]tongue.gif[/img] )

As for my beliefs... I don't believe in a higher being. I believe that if you are happy with life and not causing pain or suffering to others then you're doing it right.
I've got no problem with other people thinking something completely different; I respect their choice. What I don't like is when said people start telling me that they're right and I'm wrong. Why can't they respect my decision to not believe in God and leave it at that?

The differences are not that great though mate. THose that alter a substancial theology are generally widely renounced as in serious error. The bible the Jehovahs witnesses use is one such translation. A commitee that comprised of just one person qualified in koine greek, and self taught in Hebrew, translated theirs. There are significant trasnlation errors.

All the others agree on the central assertions of Christianity. Sometimes it can indeed help reading more than one translation to get a clearer picture, as it may word something in a slightly different way. It is after all the spirit and intent that is the important thing. The message that get's into your mind, not the exact wording. It's the "inspired word of God", not a series of magic words.

An example is this note verse 3 in all versions:

NIV:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
<font color="cyan">3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. </font>
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[1] it.

-------------------

NASB:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
<font color="cyan">3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. </font>
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not [1] comprehend it.

-------------------

AMP: (this is an "amplified" translation. The meaning is elaborated on)

1 IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word ([1] Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God [2] Himself.(1)
2 He was present originally with God.
<font color="cyan">3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.</font>
4 In Him was Life, and the Life was the Light of men.
5 And the Light shines on in the darkness, for the darkness has never overpowered it [put it out or absorbed it or appropriated it, and is unreceptive to it].

--------------------

NLT:

1 In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and he was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.
<font color="cyan">3 He created everything there is. Nothing exists that he didn't make. </font>
4 Life itself was in him, and this life gives light to everyone.
5 The light shines through the darkness, and the darkness can never extinguish it.

--------------------

King James:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
<font color="cyan">3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.</font>
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

--------------------

And so on. The exact wording may differ, but the message is the same.

[ 01-23-2003, 01:13 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

O.k. (and thanks Dan) [img]smile.gif[/img]

Humans are not born without instincts either... and squirrels (or anything else for that matter) are not born totally knowledgeable about everything life can throw at them... They have to learn too... they just have more instincts than us...
How do you know it doesn't... there are probably hunderds of cases world wide where squirrles place a sharp acorn below a tree, climb the tree and then impale themselves...
Sure they do... you know when they bury nuts? It's actually a contemporary art form expressing the desire, dream, and hope, for NUTS!
Sure they do... a lot of strategy is involved in chasing your muckers around a tree... left - right - left - left again...
Why do you think so many squirrles are seen alone gathering nuts... its a sorry present...
See notes on last point...
What about those hoards of nuts... they don't eat most of them... so technically they could be killing for sport... just imagine "The Big Nut Competition - pluck, collect and bury as many nuts as possible, and win a fabulous prize... NUTS!!"
How do you know that migration isn't exactly that (nb... ok... so squirrels don't migrate... but other animals then... and squirrles often go from tree to tree searching for something!

OK... so maybe not... (although the first one was serious ;) )

Do you ask yourself this question when a squirrel, a dog or a tree dies ? Do they have an ultimate purpose in life ? Do they go to this "better place" ?

Most of religious people would say : eh of course not !

Though you see, we re just some evolved squirrels.</font>[/QUOTE]A squirrel is not born without instincts. A squirrel doesn't have to learn everything from obsevation the way a human does.

A squirrel does not question why it is here, nor get fed up and end it's own life.

A squirrel does not create works of art that express it's inner desires, dreams and hopes.

A squirrel does not hypothesise alternate scenarios before initiating an action, like a human does.

A squirrel does not get worked up in a fit over a perceived slight from it's mate.

A squirrel does not need to "get away from it all" because it's existence has become habitual and in a rut.

A squirrel does not kill for sport.

A squirrel does not embark on a search to find: It's real parents, it's homeland, what it really wants to do in it's life, a reason to keep on living.

We are considerably differnt from squirrels. ;) </font>[/QUOTE]Squirrels don't do these things, but chimpanzees do. [img]smile.gif[/img]

For centuries, scientists have wondered what exactly makes us humans different from animals.

For a long time, the answer seemed to be : Only humans use tools. Heh no. Lots of animals are able to get a nearby rock or branch and use it to help themselves to, say, loot an anthill. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Then it was said, sure, but only humans are able to MAKE tools. Nope. Evolved apes like Chimpanzees and Gorillas are able to combine stuff, for example make a longer branch from two smaller branches tied up to get better results from the said anthill. [img]smile.gif[/img]

OK, but only humans are able to consciously PLAN. Sorry, again no. A community of Chimpanzees has been observed sending a group 10 km away to a special place when the right sort of rocks could be found to use as tools. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I can go on : Only humans laugh ? Nope, Chimpanzees do. Only humans create ? No, scientific projects observing Chimpanzees have provided them with paper and pencils, and some apes made drawings. [img]smile.gif[/img]

All these abilities seem to derive from self-consciousness. Are you able to distinguish yourself from any other member of the same race ? Humans do - and again, Chimpanzees do, experiences with mirrors have proven that. So far, it seems that only humans and chimpanzees possess self-consciousness.

Other troubling (and IMO exciting) facts.

When you give access to a big mirror to a group of Chimpanzees, after a while they are able to know that it is themselves they are seeing, and observe others from the mirror - and after another while they take great fun painting their face and looking at their reflection and laughing ! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Chimpanzees are able to learn and use deaf language to communicate - and they are able to express abstraction, like "I am sad because Mum is ill". [img]smile.gif[/img]

A young Chimpanzee was raised with a human family. A group of other Chimpanzees lived nearby. When asked, from a set of photos, which ones were of Chimpanzees and which ones were of Humans, she answered correctly for all the photos but one : she put herself in the Humans group ... [img]smile.gif[/img]

In a Chimpanzee community, there was one who had a brain disease, making him unable to 'grow up', he was physically adult but behaved like a child. The other Chimpanzees cared for him and sheltered him as a human community would for a fellow crippled human (or some may say better ...). Once he went to the leader and undertook the 'challenge' stance - the leader started to take an aggressive stance, then saw it was the cripple and immediately went back to calm and ignored him. [img]smile.gif[/img]

And my favourite anecdote : Two scientists locked a Chimpanzee in a room with various pieces of furniture, to observe his behaviour. So they locked the door and one of them put his eye on the peephole ... to face a huge brown eye looking him back ! [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Chimpanzees are self-conscious. Chimpanzees have very complex societies. Chimpanzees think and plan. Chimpanzees learn. Chimpanzees create. Chimpanzees laugh. Chimpanzees have feelings. Chimpanzees care for each other.

Chimpanzees don't make war. Chimpanzees don't seek growth at all costs. Chimpanzees leave the world intact.

Are the Chimpanzees wiser than we are ? More 'human' ?

Are they our future ?

Is there a place in Heaven for Chimpanzees ? ;)

Hehe reading what you wrote reminded me of one of the Primatology classes I took at university: Anthropology was my minor [img]smile.gif[/img]

And yea, they definitely have a "culture" of sorts. They do pass knowledge down from generation to generation.

[ 01-23-2003, 06:10 AM: Message edited by: esquire ]

BTW here is a cool site on Chimp Culture

So what's the question ? :D

*agrees whole-heartedly with Moiraine's post*
I think that it is somewhat arrogant for humans to put ourselves so distinct from other animals, of course there are varying degrees of this, but the chimpanzee, as Moiraine said, is one example of another animal capable of such things as we are.

Just think, we can't tell what other animals are thinking exactly without seeing things to show this, we could see the chimpanzees ability to plan etc by the consequences, i.e the example given of going kilometres away to find specific things.
So, maybe many other crestures are capable of this thinking, and we merely haven't seen it demonstrated- who knows, maybe squirrels look down on us- thinking how they are above us. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Well... it really depends on the height of the tree...

There are some great replies here. After reading the squirel post, I was thinking exactly the same thing about chimps.
Great post Moiraine [img]graemlins/awesomework.gif[/img]
Downunder has a good point to. Like I said before, I dont question a persons faith. But I am questioned all the time.

I have the same question as johnny. What is the purpose of the post about the chimpanzees? Is it to disprove what someone had said about squirrels?

Sorry this is definitely [img]graemlins/offtopic.gif[/img]

I have seen a program about chimpanzees on the discovery channel. There is a group that goes out on a nightly bases in order to look for members of rival groups. When they find these intruders they hunt them and kill them. This, in my opinion, is just like human wars over territory.

[ 01-23-2003, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: homer ]

Sorry this is definitely [img]graemlins/offtopic.gif[/img]

I have seen a program about chimpanzees on the discovery channel. There is a group that goes out on a nightly bases in order to look for members of rival groups. When they find these intruders they hunt them and kill them. This, in my opinion, is just like human wars over territory.</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, Neighboring chimp tribes will in fact make war. And, they use weapons. It is interesting that in the animal kingdom, contests between members of the same species are almost never fatal (and almost always involve food, territory, or mating). Man and his closest relative are a rare exception (in that their contests prove fatal - I think even man almost always fights for food, territory, or mating).

Vaskez:
I know you took a hiatus from this discussion, but if you're reading, I apologize for ascribing a religious view to you that you do not hold. I think my statement applies to whatever religion you are, though, and the "books" of the religion I mentioned only by way of example.

Yorick:
I don't know which of your posts replying to me to sur-reply to, but there's a lot of interesting stuff in there. By the way, thanks for starting a squirrel thread. I needed it this morning. [img]graemlins/goodmorning.gif[/img] :D

Sorry this is definitely [img]graemlins/offtopic.gif[/img]

I have seen a program about chimpanzees on the discovery channel. There is a group that goes out on a nightly bases in order to look for members of rival groups. When they find these intruders they hunt them and kill them. This, in my opinion, is just like human wars over territory.</font>[/QUOTE]Nah Homer, you can tell me I am wrong on that point, but not that I am off-topic. Or was this topic intended to talk about squirrels only ? ;)

Anyway, even if I am proven wrong on the point of Chimpanzees making wars, that doesn't invalidate my whole post. In a way, you could consider that makes Chimpanzees all the more 'humans' ... ;)

[ 01-23-2003, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: Moiraine ]

Chimps do not have sex purely for pleasure. Only dolphins and humans do.

Chimps do not sit around and make music and art. I have seen "art" humans have made chimps do and it is vastly inferior in every way to that which a human infant makes.

Chimps do not divorce.

Chimps do not become vagrants, engaging in solo treks to find their place in the world.

Chimps do not fear becoming like their father or mother.

Chimps do not seek career satisfaction, nor get frustrated when they are underused or unappreciated in the workforce.

Chimps do not overcompensate for their parents flaws with their own kids.

Chimps do not seek escape from the troubles of life through substance abuse.

Chimps do not commit suicide.

Chimps clearly do not ponder the reason for life, nor the meaning why they are here. They just are. Short term planning is not the same as long term commitment. Long term focus. Complex hypothesis of alternate life choice scenarios. Similarly, using a rock is not the same thing as capturing soundwaves. Chimps continually reinvent the wheel. Humans are able to learn from other humans and make new discoveries and inventions from the foundations of others.

The proof is that chimps have been around longer than humans, or at least as long, and yet do not "advance" their toolmaking from an individual discovery.

----------------

Biologically, chimps are NOT bipodal. Their spines cannot take their weight standing on two legs for long.

Chimps babies are born stronger and with natural instincts and defenses a human baby does not possess.

Chimps noses do not allow them to swim. They drown.

Chimps do not possess the physiology to sing, yet humans are made to sing. Our voices work best and deteriorate far less when singing than when speaking. We possess ventricle bands that exist purely to make our voices sound pleasant. This is not necessary for survival.

So how does a chimp, that cannot stand up for long, or swim, become a human that can do both? How does it devolve into a physically weaker, less instinctive and defended creature, yet more emotionally and intellectually complex?

Regardless, for all their similarities, chimps are very different to humans. When I do study chimps it gives me a greater appreciation and love for the human race - which is hardly a bad thing. It's not arrogant either as someone else suggested, for when I love humans I also give gloy to God for creating such wonderously complex and intriguing individuals.

Please excuse me; I did not intend to indicate your entire post was off topic. In fact I was indicating that my response about something I saw on the discovery channel was off topic.

As well I did not intend to invalidate your entire post, which is why I only quoted a small section of it.

No offense intended. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I am curious if you put any stake in evolution. I believe it has been surmised that humans evolved from creatures very similar to chimpanzees. I think that this might explain some of the differences that you refer to. They are simply less evolved.

Regardless, I wonder: do you believe that human beings are the only creatures that posses a soul?

[ 01-23-2003, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: homer ]

I am curious if you put any stake in evolution. I believe it has been surmised that humans evolved from creatures very similar to chimpanzees. I think that this might explain some of the differences that you refer to. They are simply less evolved.

Regardless, I wonder: do you believe that human beings are the only creatures that posses a soul?</font>[/QUOTE]I belief in evolution within a species (humans getting taller, dogs getting smaller etc), and social evolution, but have not seen proof to convince me of the mutational advances necessary for new species to evolve. I cannot accept evolution because of a lack of evidence, and so am a creationist practically by default. Evolutionism is for me a seperate issue to my faith in God. Were I an evolutionist, I would believe God initiated the spark of life, the big bang and guided evolutionary development. I simply have not seen enough proof to suggest that is how the world developed.

Regarding the soul, yes I do believe that only humans possess a soul. That has sometimes been a painful acceptance when say a pet dies, but I believe this with certainty.

Various reasons abound for this, including the conscience - a moral guide that alters behaviour. A cat shows no remorse in killing a mouse, and will do so repeatedly.

Another reason is the Arts. Creating for it's own sake. Creating things with no functional purpose other than reflecting internal feelings, emotions and conflicts are to me a language of the soul. Many mysteries can be communicated in just two notes, between the expresser and the receiver. Words cannot define such communication.

Chimpanzees have not evolved less than humans, they have evolved differently.

Chimpanzees are not our ancestors, but our cousins. Think of an "Y" with humans on top of one branch, chimpanzees on top of the other, and our common ancestor at the bottom branch. The two branches diverged between 10 and 5 millions of yeard ago, and we share more than 99.5 % of our genes with them.

When I asked "Are the chimpanzees our future ?" I was not suggesting the human race would evolve into something like Chimpanzees, but that if we blow ourselves over the Chimpanzees may become the best chance for our gene pool to survive.

Also keep in mind that we currently know about Chimpanzees, we know using human tools. We teach Chimpanzees to talk our deaf language (is that the word ?), we don't communicate with them with their own language. Lots of things are lost in communication. Probably there are things they can do and we can't. Through all you say they don't do, maybe they have a bigger potential for happiness ? ;)

Yorick, all the things you say that Chimpanzees don't do, our long ago ancestors didn't do either. But the potential was there. Chimpanzees's evolution probably won't make them 'human' as in similar to us. They laugh and cry, they are conscious of self, they live with each other, they learn - the potential is here. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Well that's where we disagree Claude. ;) [img]smile.gif[/img]

Meet Aegyptopithecus, http://people.uncw.edu/albertm/ant210fall02/03Ask.gif earliest example of an anthropoid (early primates), and ancestor to later hominoids (as in us)

As far as Chimps go, they do use tools:
-they make fishing sticks (where they use a stick to catch termites and eat them)
-they use rocks to break open nuts

They also work cooperatively to hunt small animals, and they share the meat.
Oh and they have many different calls, body motions they use to communicate different emotional states.

Chimps are very simular to humans, their genes only differ by 1% compared to ours.
Also, Comparing DNA Chimps have shown to have diverged from humans by about 5 million years.

It goes like this,
We are part of the Hominoid group (comprised of Orangutans, Gorilla, Chimp, Bonobo, and Human)
And the Hominoid group as a whole is an off-shoot of the Old world monkeys which started happening around 7 million years ago. Anyway, there are too many examples to list, but you get the idea ;)

[ 01-23-2003, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: esquire ]

A rats DNA is also very similar to a humans. That is meaninless. We are also similar to trees in that we're alive and we grow. It doesn't mean we must have come from a shared ancestor to a tree.

Showing a photo of a skull that bears little resemblence to a humans does little in my book either. It is an old skull of a creature with a huge mouth and small brain. Hardly proof of evolution.

Co-operative behaviour is not the exclusive domain of chimps and humans. Hyenas, dolphins, lions, ants and many other animals work co-operatively. Again, not conclusive proof.

Again I repeat. Using a rock or simple tool is like reinvention of the wheel. Humans alone use compounded knowledge and invention. We communicate our discoveries and inventions to each other and build upon that. The result is an engine driven car, not simply another wheel.

Human inventiveness, consrtuction and artistic expression far outsurpasses any other lifeforms, in terms of complexity, scope, permanence and communicative significance.

Also, humans collectively and individually have adapted to every environment on the planet. Apes have not.

Ummm ok, look I'm not going to argue the validity of science, you can go look it up if you feel like it. I figured since you guys were interested in chimps that I would just fill in a few gaps. Obviously the photo I posted doesn't look much like us! We have changed a lot since then :D

I guess me quoting an Anthropology text is not much different than you quoting the bible. So to each his own...

But...there is not a conspiracy of any kind, the fossils of early mammals are quite real, as are the remains of our ancestors. I suppose if you hold the assumption that the principles of science are false, well there you have it.

I'm sure they are real. The issue is, it is a fossil of just one part of the creatures body. All it proves is that a creature with such a skull existed. All else is speculation. It is an ASSUMPTION that the thing is indicative of a common ancestor. It is an ASSUMPTION that it possessed an ape or humanlike body, without finding the rest of the skeleton to prove it so.

Call me a cynic, but I need to see facts, not guesswork, assumptions and speculations before changing a position.

(If and) when words scribbled down thousands of years ago by PEOPLE from oral tradition and *ostensibly* the direct "words" of a diety make someone ignore such clearly understood things as carbon dating and fossil evidence (note: I am only referring to the fossil evidence we do actually understand) then it is time for me to quit reading a thread that has become meaningless.

[edit]: sorry Yoric - now that I saw your later post, I don't think this is what you were doing, but at the time I did. [end edit]

Yorick is offended by the notion we come from Chimps or something similar, just as he is arrogant in placing humans on a pedastal. Mayhap these internal feelings of superiority and need for a purpose are shared by the majority of people. Mayhap this feeling, and many others shared by conscious reasoning being who fully comprehend mortality is why those people have a *need* to create gods to worship.

God created man. And man, being the perfect gentleman, returned the favor.
- Inherit the Wind

Agreed. The diff is that the Bible has been around and relevent for 2000 years. Parts of it for 4000 years. It's a constant. The Anthropological books are much younger, and are always being updated. ;)

But yes to each his own. [img]smile.gif[/img]

You gotta be kidding me! You believe the bible yet doubt other things not grounded in hard facts?

Timber, you haven't yet responded to my earlier words to you.

I am not offended by such a notion. I simply cannot accept it from the evidence I see and have seen. Yes I am amazed at how marvelous humans are, and that extends to seeing how marvellous I am, and how wonderful my God is. My faith INCREASES MY SELF ESTEEM AND MY LOVE AND ADMIRATION FOR FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS.

You may call it arrogant. I call it enhanced appreciation of human life. An increase in love of self and love of others.

Hardly a destructive tendancy.

It has nothing to do with the way I treat animals either. I love animals and they me. I'm almost a vegetarian, and support animals rights by choosing where my dollar goes by buying free range eggs for example.

But yes, believing that we are created seperately from the animal kingdom does increase my value of human life.

But then we disagree about the value of human life in a number of areas don't we Timber. ;)

You gotta be kidding me! You believe the bible yet doubt other things not grounded in hard facts?</font>[/QUOTE]The truth in the Bible is reaffirmed in my life daily. In my life and experience it IS a hard fact. It works. It's advice and values work for me. The promises get fulfilled in my life. Because it works and holds truth in the areas I can see clearly, then until proven otherwise I take it's word on other matters, such as origin of the species.

Speculations about skulls is hardly "hard fact". Sorry. I simply cannot accept it.

[ 01-23-2003, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

Nah, isn't it interesting that the closest to us living things look, the more genes they share with us ? We share 99.5 % of our genes with Chimpanzees, and 70 % with bananas. Were it the other way around, I would be the first to agree with you that it is (probably) meaningless. ;)

Of course, you would have to look at ALL the skulls and skeletons on our evolutional tree as scientists have constructed so far for the continuity of our evolution to seem more plausible. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Chimpanzees have exhibited much more than simple cooperative behaviour - they live in societies with cultures - they CARE for each others (refer to the story about the cripple I mentioned earlier). And dolphins are known to be extremely intelligent too.

So we humans seem to be the only species that ACTS on its environment to suit it, instead of dancing with it. So far, anyway : we have been able to modify the world on large scales using mechanical tools for only 2 centuries, and on the world scale for 50 years, which is VERY short in view of humanity history.

The question I ask is : do we have the collective wisdom matching our technological prowesses ?

We don't have the knowledge to say for sure if the chimpanzees and dolphins don't follow our path because they can't or because they don't need/want to. I don't see why their own evolutionary paths should follow ours. You are measuring apples and oranges - measuring foreign species with human scales.

LOL I recently watched a documentary about a kind of mouse who has managed to travel at some point in the past to a surprising amount of locations all over the world, and managed to adapt to survive everywhere it went. I'll try to find the name of that Survivor Mouse for you. That is hardly a human specialty ! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Ah ... I agree. [img]smile.gif[/img] ;)

For the sake of humour, Yorick Bard, may I say that that skull up there looks a lot more human to me than an egg bouncing on two orange legs ? http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...ons/icon16.gif

Oh, and I see you are all talking about 'chimps'. Are we 'hums' then ? [img]smile.gif[/img]

EDIT : Damn spelling mishaps !

[ 01-23-2003, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: Moiraine ]

[quote]Originally posted by Yorick:

Quote:

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: [qb]Timber, you haven't yet responded to my earlier words to you. ***** You may call it arrogant. I call it enhanced appreciation of human life. An increase in love of self and love of others. **** It has nothing to do with the way I treat animals either. I love animals and they me. I'm almost a vegetarian, and support animals rights by choosing where my dollar goes by buying free range eggs for example. **** But then we disagree about the value of human life in a number of areas don't we Timber. ;)

1. Which earlier words? Not in this thread, right? The original thread? Or the other thread on this board? Sorry - lemme know and I'll get to typing straight away.

2. Yeah, I only eat free range eggs too. And I'm a vegetarian. And so is my wife. And our kids will be too. But, gawd, how could one ever give up CHEEEESE? :D Sorry, just a plug for cheese. :D But not all diary, milk is poison. :(

3. Yes, we do disagree about the value of human life. I value the species-being but not so much the individual. I'm concerned with the teleological story of human existence (and an astute philosopher might ask how one ascribes to teleology without ascribing to theology). But, I'd push a button to kill 50% of the people on the planet just to cure the population problem if I ever had the chance.

But, as for the value of human life: the law certainly puts a value on it. I know when I get a death case on my desk it's worth about $1mil. But, the worst cases are the ones where the guy/girl is really badly injured but doesn't die. A lifetime of mental retardation from a motorcycle accident (like one I've got right now) throws you easily into the $5 mil range. So, aren't determinations about the value of human life made every day? BTW, Cheney's golden severence from Haliburton pays him more per year than either one of these figures, just so you can relate.

Claude, I have to run, but I'll quickly just add in this.

Ants. Bees. Whales. Hyenas. These all have societies with cultures too. ;) Doesn't mean they're humanlike. :D

Anyway I'm out. Talk to you later you Sage de Francais.

OK speaking as true Atheist now :D ….

I am proud to be a human, a species that has against all odds survived and evolved over millions of years…ultimately achieving the state we are in now. From my perspective, my 4+ years of university training I accept that science is real.

I should mention that my major is English, so I have also studied the bible quite a bit, its an ok book… kind of rambles on in places.

If one takes a religious standpoint that say, humans are separate from the rest of the animals on earth, such a statement cannot be supported by facts, only faith.

Science on the other hand starts with a theory and then seeks to prove it by use of the scientific process. Needless to say, if the scientific process didn’t work, then I wouldn’t even be typing on my laptop right now [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Additionally I personally do not see a correlation in understanding how our evolutionary history occured is in any way demeaning to what we are now.

How does understanding our origins demean what we are now??? Why would this be? :confused:

Hell, we beat the odds! We survived the astroid that wiped out the dinosaurs; we beat out the Neanderthals, and not to mention the countless plagues and wars... ect...

Yea, Human life is valuable.

[ 01-23-2003, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: esquire ]

But science is constantly changing it's position on this:

I don't understand everthing in here (I chacked out the full article) but it says to me that there is still a long way to go before we know how close human and various animal DNA really is. We seem to be even further from understanding fully what that relationship then means.

But science is constantly changing it's position on this:

[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Well actually there are a few things that we are certain of, this is one of them.

Ok, I didnt really bother reading most of the posts in this topic (mainly because I have to mow the lawn in a few minutes *shudder*) but to answer the question of how we are different from animals is easy. Gods own teachings (if you believe he exists) have told us that we have the ability to comprehend and use intelegent thaught, thus giving us the ability to recognise the existence of God. Also on a side note, we are made in gods own image in the fact that we have the capasity for love and intelegent thaught, it matters not what we look like. Some people think that "if Gods teachings told us that we were made perfect then why do we have fat bodies or those pointy teeth?" Well thats just stupid, we were made spiritually perfect because we all have the capasity to use the virtues (love, kindness, tact, the other 200 or so ones there are) that help us be better people and do what that Christian prayer says "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven" (if this is written wrong im sorry) this is just what i have been told but that prayer speaks of the creation of gods kingdom on earth asin, if we keep being good people and working towards the betterment of mankind we can forfil our purpose as people of gods faiths (Jewish, Muslum, Christian, Baha'i) to bring an age of happiness and ... well, perfection to earth.
Please dont be offended by what i have said, this is just my opinion and if you feel angered by this just remember that no human is infallable and I may therefore be wrong. (breaths deaply)

*Gibberish mode: off*

--Did you know that two people can have the same DNA and be totally different? You often need an environmental input in order to "turn on" (express) the gene. Evidence for this is overwhelming. Thus, a rat can have a genome very similar to a human, and be a totally separate species.

--perhaps if you took all of the skulls at the various points of evolution, you might see more evidence (not proof). Then again, maybe not. Agree to disagree, they say.

--so we've developed a trait (more complex brains in the right areas) that allows us to thrive in this particular moment in time. Is that so great? Not when we become extinct, I think. Is that a meteor coming this way?

--I dsiagree. Much of our inventions come from observing other, less-evolved, ancestors. Then, human got together, shared ideas, and made another discovery. So we have more complex communication; lucky us. Permanence? We haven't been along that long, actually. The planet is roughly 6 billion years old. Perhaps another society (non-human) had built something far more substantial, and we haven't found it yet. A longshot, but plausible.

--of course we have, by destroying nature around us. I don't believe this adds to our greatness. Perhaps dolphins don't build McDonald's because they know it would be unhealthy? Perhaps they're wiser than we are! Ok, joking here, but still...

Three questions for you. Do you believe that the human race will become extinct? What happens then?
Do you believe in things like "Crossing Over" when a person can communicate with people who have died? Sometimes these people can sense dead pets. How can this be explained?
Just curious as to another's thought-processes.

[ 01-23-2003, 10:59 PM: Message edited by: Gammit ]