I just have this one thing that I can't get into my head about atheism. First let me introduce the topic a bit...

You have no proof that there is a God, no scientific proof anyway. You also have no proof that there isn't a God. Ok so far?
Let's take a look at the Christian God for a quick sec. For argument, let's assume everything is true, he exists, etc. He promises eternal life after death, guidance and care during life on Earth and in exchange he asks that you do not sin, you acknowledge when you have sinned and you admit and accept him for what he is. Now most law-abiding moral people do the first two anyway.

Ok now let's assume there is no God. Ok so you die, you die and there is no ultimate purpose to life. Woohoo.

If you believe in the first argument that there is a God etc., and you learn about him, and in the end believe then two things could happen when you die:

1) You will be rewarded for your faith with eternal life and happiness when you die, i.e. you go to "a better place". Everything is cool.
2) You were mistaken about God and He doesn't exist and you just die. What have you lost? Nothing.

If you believe in the 2nd argument that there is no God you live your whole life in that belief and then you die. If you were mistaken and there is a God you will have lost your whole Earth life without that knowledge and the happiness, peace, guidance it could have brung. You also could lose your place in eternal life. If you were not mistaken then you die anyway and that's it.

NOW for my question:
seeing as you have absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain by believing and you have so much to lose and nothing to gain by not believing, why is it that so many people are atheists? I just don't get it? :confused:
This is truly puzzling for me since people have no proof either way, it makes much more sense to believe and I haven't even mentioned all the other indications (note I do not say evidence) that there is a God.
So any atheists care to shed some light on the matter?

I'm not trying to give this "nothing to lose" as a reason for believing I'm just saying if nothing else makes you believe, what do you think about this post?

my thoughts continue near the bottom of page 3 in the bloody long post if you still interested :D

[ 01-22-2003, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Vaskez ]

you can't just pick up faith, you need to actually believe in it. If I would stand by a certain religion I would need to believe in it, otherwise I would just be a hypocrite. As beneficial as it would sound to just adhere to a religion, thats all you would be doing is adhering. Part of most religions is that you truly believe in it, which an athiest would never be able to do, therefore adhering to a religion just because, would be a waste of time for an athiest anyway. even in christian religion, one can say they believe in God and jesus and all that, because they are hoping to get into heaven, but if they really don't believe they are still not going to get in. Basically you can't force faith.

I'm an atheist, if that's what you wanna call me. I don't need proof if there's a god or not. You know why ? Cause i simply don't care. I have better things to do than waste time thinking about things like that.

Azrael I know what you're saying but what I mean is if you give it a little faith then you will either find out more and then get more faith etc. or you won't and then you've at least covered yourself and looked into it. Either way, you're not forcing it.

Johnny - you're not an atheist then as they are firm in their non-belief. You just don't care. You have better things to do? Like what? I can't see anything more important than figuring out why we are here. If you haven't figured it out or are not trying to, you might as well be dead as you have no reason to exist. That's just my opinion.

<font color="cyan">I take it this stemmed from the Lord Kathen/Yorrick argument?

Not being funny, but once again I think your question is silly. I am not an Atheist, but I am not religious. I posted my feeligns on the Incomprehensible Beauty thread.

People don't decide to believe in God just because they have nothing to lose. They believe in God because they have Faith, and that it has come to them somehow.

If they don't have Faith, they don't believe in God.

And another thing is time. I agree with what Johhny said sorta, I have other things to think about. If one day i wake and something happens, and I "feel" god within me, (which I hope will happen but I seriously doubt), thats great, and then I'll dedicate time to then.

You cant find God, he finds you.</font>

I just wanted to say that this is a very dangerous subject to bring up (I made the mistake of bringing it up and making a fool of myself *and* getting a migrane [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) Also I have one question (that i may later regret even asking) What makes people think that all the major religions in the world have different gods? Please, I'm very eager to know why. (And if anyone says "Because the muslims worship Alla" then you obviously havent used your brains and figured out that that is the Arabic name for God)

<font color="cyan">Dude, your cross referencing two totally different topics here. Believing in God is nothing to do with "why we are here".

There is a connection between God making us (supposedly), but why we are here is more science based. In the eyes of God, to spread the good word and be nice? (correct me if I'm wrong, I only ever read the bible in class.....so i aint read so much).

Or, like me, you can believe it is to be born, reproduce, die. That is the meaning of life. To preserve your kind. Same for every species. Every living thing has this in common.

Its just humans stray, and can get drunk and shit in the meantime. :D </font>

Vaskez, i HAVE been wondering why i'm here sometimes, but only when i was stoned. I think it's all just a waste of time, and like i said, i have better things to do. And i also think there is no god, so that DOES make me an atheist. But then again, even if there was a god, i don't care.

<font color="cyan">Why do Christians believe in God? Because the scriptures describe him as God of everything, one being. Just what people wrote him down as. When say Peter or Paul or John or whoever was writing about God for later years to come, they never saw him, they just decided he was a greater bieng in human form. He could have said he had the head of a dog or anything :D

Other scriptures from different religions just wrote it down as many different Gods, in different forms. Dunno why really.

I reckon its just Christians were boring, and the Greek, Eqyptians, Norse were just cool and imaginative!</font>

<font color="cyan">Been there dude! Makes you think some crazy shit! The one I keep getting is : why did I leave this ex? Why did I do that with this ex? Makes you think about some weird shit!</font>

hmm, you say, that if you don't believe and there would be a god you will be punished after death even if you've lived your life well. Well, to tell you the truth, in such a case if he really wants to be so much adored even if you lived your life well, then I don't even want to believe in him. Because god or no god, I care more about how I live my life well together with others then god himself, no offence ;)

and to answer your question why a lot of people don't believe is definately the proof which we need. I don't just chose to believe, I need to see something which makes me believe and then ofcourse know the truth of it.

[ 01-21-2003, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: Irongrinder ]

<font color="cyan">Fair point. </font>

<font color="cyan">Why do Christians believe in God? Because the scriptures describe him as God of everything, one being. Just what people wrote him down as. When say Peter or Paul or John or whoever was writing about God for later years to come, they never saw him, they just decided he was a greater bieng in human form. He could have said he had the head of a dog or anything :D

Other scriptures from different religions just wrote it down as many different Gods, in different forms. Dunno why really.

I reckon its just Christians were boring, and the Greek, Eqyptians, Norse were just cool and imaginative!</font></font>[/QUOTE]I was refering to the religions around now, you know, Christianity, Muslim, Buddism, Jewish, Baha'i (my own religion believing all the majour reigions are from the same god. Its just they have *different teachings* - hence the beliefs that they are from different gods because people think that if the messeges arent the same they arent from the same source)
If my religion is in fact right and it IS founded by Gods latest Manifestation some 150 years ago then one of gods own message carriers has proven that Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Christ, Mohammad and the man who founded the Baha'i faith are all from the same God!

DAMN! Im rambling!

You can't just give it a little faith though. that faith, for me, has to come from some basis, other than the fact that there might be a god when i die and if i worship him then I dont lose anything.you can;t just start believing something. I have studied a number of different religions, and though I find some truth in all of them, to me none of them are the truth or are ever going to be in my foreseeable future. Faith isn't something you can just pick up like that, it has to be earned

I never understood why people feel the need to believe in a higher being anyway. Do they think it makes them better persons ? And am i a lesser person because i refuse to pray to a god ?

I wish every believer had that idea, not much wars then, although we as mankind are stupid enough to fight about something else then

<font color="cyan">Sorry mate, my bad. I understand now! Sorry, its 2am! lol.

I don't know why, I see your point. They all believe in the same God, but disagree on the message!</font>

No, you wont be a lesser person but for some people the knowledge that god exists and to Love him (not to fear him as some people do... I dont know why...) makes people feel better, it can make you happier. People also think that to believe in god you have give up things that make life enjoyable but it *is* possible to live without those things and have even more fun!

Yeah, i know people feel like that Dagorion, but i'm quite happy as it is, and i owe it all to myself. Of course i could become even happier, but only when i win the lottery. :D

LOL. I’m surprised at how many people agree with this fact so far. A whopping 2! :D (More then I would have expected for some reason.)

<font color="cyan">Lol@Johnny.

Yes, it can make people happier. But religion is the main cause of war in the world. Suppose thats just the Chaos theory.</font>

LOL, yes I suppose you’re right Johnny.
I'm saddened at the fact that, statistically, Christianity has cause more wars than anything else in the world (besides freedom of course but that doesn’t count [img]tongue.gif[/img] )

I can only speak for myself, but my answer to 1 and 2 is no. My faith in Jesus includes the realisation that all of us are imperfect. It gives me an acceptance of my imperfection because I'm made this way, forgiven and loved regardless.

The need to believe? I wouldn't call it that. "What is gained from my faith" may be better. In which case I have gained:

Inner peace.
Inspiration.
Enhanced relationships with others.
Positive perception and outlook.
Love.
Coping mechanisms.
Increased ability to change and grow as an individual.
Psychological balance.
Health.
Increased appreciation of the earth, history, science. nature and art.
Creative energy.
Specific increases in abilities at various times, to meet specific challenges.

Now, I realise someone could gain all those things without God. What I am saying is that my faith in God has given ME those things. Without it I (not speaking for anyone else) would not have gained those things to the level I have.

In my life God has given me everything, so I choose to give it back.

Money (gold, silver oil, trade routes etc), food, and lebenstraum are the main causes in my book.

I have my own question allong these same lines. What makes the followers of modern religion so sure that their god is the only one that ever was? I think that the Greeks,Romans,Egyptians,Mayans,Incas,Hindus,and Native Americans all had quite a few diffrent gods long before the first stories of the old testament even hint at takeing place. All of thoes civilizations cant be wrong.

It is also why I dont believe in any form of god. There are far too many contradictions in logic for me to place any faith in that stuff.

I have my own question allong these same lines. What makes the followers of modern religion so sure that their god is the only one that ever was? I think that the Greeks,Romans,Egyptians,Mayans,Incas,Hindus,and Native Americans all had quite a few diffrent gods long before the first stories of the old testament even hint at takeing place. All of thoes civilizations cant be wrong.

It is also why I dont believe in any form of god. There are far too many contradictions in logic for me to place any faith in that stuff.</font>[/QUOTE]But they all have a creation myth and a flood myth. They may disagree about the details, but every human culture has a belief in something that created all this.

Money (gold, silver oil, trade routes etc), food, and lebenstraum are the main causes in my book.</font>[/QUOTE]Ok, lets just narrow it down to the last 2000 years, and make it major wars. I'm not saying Christianity is bad or is wrong, I’m just saying that the people in control of it have used it for their own gains or have been too "righteous" for their own - and Christianity's - good. Maybe we could just say *all* religions have cause more wars then anything else.

Money (gold, silver oil, trade routes etc), food, and lebenstraum are the main causes in my book.</font>[/QUOTE]Ok, lets just narrow it down to the last 2000 years, and make it major wars. I'm not saying Christianity is bad or is wrong, I’m just saying that the people in control of it have used it for their own gains or have been too "righteous" for their own - and Christianity's - good. Maybe we could just say *all* religions have cause more wars then anything else.</font>[/QUOTE]I still disagree. Greed. Love of money. These things cause war and contention. Religions only ever seek to curb these things. People can use religion to motivate others, but what drives the motivator? Money.

If Bush mentions God in a speech do we presume he is going to war with Iraq because of religion? OIL! OIL PIPELINES! Is the detractors cry. SECURITY! is the supporters cry.

How ill history view it? How is it different from a crusade?

TRADE ROUTES a detractor of the time could cry denouncing the crusade. SECURITY! A supporter, fearful of the next Arabic/Turkish/Moorish invasion could cry.

Money.

Yes, I see your point Yorick...

You can't believe something by going "well, I have nothing to lose, so..."! That's just nuts. Secondly, your argument is reminiscent of Pascal's wager argument, in which he argued that it was a better "bet" to believe in God than to not... and that argument has been proven bunk many of times over, even by me.

Yorick, people cause war. (: Money doesn't (imagine thousands of quarters, all hurling insults at each other!). I understand the basic argument that "religion causes war," as many (some would argue most) skirmishes have been fought over religion. I believe that religion can cause both war and peace; it all depends on the person.

[ 01-21-2003, 11:00 PM: Message edited by: Gammit ]

Why does the lack in belief in god automaticly assume a lack of belief in continued existense beyond physical form. Perhaps a stauch atheist may disregard any notion of life after death but a more open-minded atheist may consider the possibilities and study the events concerning life beyond and outside the realm of the five senses.

Money being a motive for people.
Animals war over food, territory and mating rights.

It depends on the person but also depends on the religion. A religion of peace cannot cause war. It's like saying 'desires cause war' or "ideals cause war."
The content is vitally important.

Chrsit was quite clear when he told us to turn the other cheek and to love our enemies and those that persecute us. He also said our struggle is not physical, but spiritual. Paul speaks of the spiritual armour of God.

Fighting a physical war in the name of Jesus is thus a contradiction.

[ 01-21-2003, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

No worries Dagorion. [img]smile.gif[/img] Cheers and salutations mate. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Vaskie, you really astound me some days! [img]graemlins/kiss.gif[/img]

What a fascinating post. And you bring forth a concept my own priest mentions frequently. I am a believer and the way I see it, I'd rather be 'wrong' about that than be an atheist and be 'wrong' that way! ;) Your points are exactly the ones I'd have used. What harm if one lives a life of faith- or tries very hard to do what is right by that belief and leaves that legacy behind- with or without the afterlife? But if one lives as though there is no God, and in the end you find you've been grievously in error- well, that's not the end I'd prefer even if I WASN'T already a believer... but yes, Azrael's point is key here.

You cannot force faith and belief on anyone. It's something that each of us finds for ourselves. Our relationships with God are personal and individual. I can no more 'force' my beliefs on someone else than I could force a Camel to shoot water through it's nostrils and make elephant noises. :D

interesting point but some people simply are turned off by God because they dont think there is anything to gain but people in shabby groups who feel they need to persecute and change people, its people like these, who don't level with reality and close themselves up in false worlds where they thinkt hey are perfect and all sinners will burn, these are the types that usually turn out representing the CHristian community to athiests, and that's usually not a good thing, same with most catholics, let's face it, they're down right forcive, unchanging, and stubborn, It took until the 1970s just for them to belive that earth orbited around the sun 9_9

The point is that not all christians are like this, especially not the people who are responsible for its creation (mainly Jesus)

now you ask, what did Jesus do that requires so much admiration

he said these words which The catholic church has refused to abide by because it would mean the destruction of their weekly Collection plate passing around:
<font color="red"><center>
Split a peice of wood and I am there...
Lift a Stone and I am there...
</font></center>

God is not a devotion, he is everything that is and ever will be... his only law is for the imperfection that is humanity to remain forever imperfect but to thrive...

and forget about the King James version of the bible being taken litterally, that's only for the absent minded, athiests think that they can do better because they view all church goers and people devoted to ancient writings in a book.

lets face it, this book isnt perfect, like humans it can be pictured in many diferint lights and seen in many diffeint ways and if it is EVER taken 100% as the truth I am sorry but that is just down right poppycock! they didnt have the knowledge back then that we have now to explain things, its best to not dwell on such things but to simply go along with them, and take them as they come. The bible also doesnt want to convert everyone it just wants to awaken the willing and sent the rest to eden.

Athiests don't go to hell, ladies and gents they leave this earth with as much knowledge as they have when they come in, First hand accounts have proven this...

So I leave you with the simple thought:

Don't dwell on steriotypes and maybe the world can get along...

all you athiests hold a christians hand, and all you christians hold a mustlims hand and all the mustlims take a bhudists hand and lets all just get along, its better to be off holding hands that having any argumentation about it! Its our differinces which keep us united as a people and a race inhabbiting such an insignifigant blue dot in a sea of stars...

I say that we join together until the darkness of the skies which is placed in between the stars is consistant of OUR NUMBER!!!

WHO'SE WITH ME!!!??

FOR HUMANITY!!!!!!

[img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ 01-21-2003, 11:33 PM: Message edited by: /)eathKiller ]

:D :D

If God is so powerful and wonderful then why is there war and poverty? :(

War and poverty are by products of humanity, not religion.

War and poverty are by products of humanity, not religion.</font>[/QUOTE]Yeah, but can't he resurect people :rolleyes:

Because God IS so powerful.

Can you make something which has enough incentive, choice, volition and emotion to love, destroy itself, build or create.