No, this is not a Yorik appreciation thread... [img]smile.gif[/img]

But just take a look at this page with microscopic pictures of snowflakes... it's almost scary how perfect some of them are.

And I'm wondering... if such order can exsist in natures creation, doesn't it prove the chaos theory wrong?

weird... [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 01-23-2003, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: Jorath Calar ]

Of course it´s not! How nice of you to dedicate a thread to me JC. :D But doesn´t snow flakes prove the chaos theory?? I can never remember the physics from high school. :D They are quite exquisite though.

Not at all, Jorath. Chaos theory by its very nature has proven that chaos produces order of a supernatural beauty. Chaos and Order thus support and define each other; I doubt one could have one without the other. [img]smile.gif[/img] Fractal theory has borne this out as well.

And those ARE magnificent! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

-Sazerac

very cool, but I thought this thread was going to be about me

[ 01-13-2003, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: AzRaeL StoRmBlaDe ]

<font color="#ffccff">It's all random accident, there is no plan...everythingis coincidence :D (I still believe in God!)</font>

Most matter will turn out beautiful if the conditions allow it to form perfect crystals.

Some of the advanced organic compounds such as hormones or enzymes form extremely beautiful crystals too.

Snowflakes .......

how pretty [img]smile.gif[/img]

Typical.

[img]graemlins/jawdrop.gif[/img] Those are beautiful!

That is incredbly beautiful. Amazing. Such design.

Yes, I believe in a creator/artist. The uniqueness of each one. The beauty in each one. Brilliant.

I cannot believe the intricacies! Astounding!

Made from miniature ice? Even sides? Whaa? I mean fair enough having something beautiful from chaos, that is wonderful, but the evenness of the patterns, the exact matching elements do not in any way seem like random development.

I mean this is miniature frozen ice!! So it just happens that snow flakes, each individual snowflake, just happens to have exact matching sides, lines, shapes and patterns? By chance every frozen snow crystal has this unique order?

I'm sorry, but anyone who looks at these and tells me a creator being that loves beauty did NOT direct the enablement of such order within the random generation of snow crystals simply WANTS to believe no such being exists. ;) *grabs tin hat* :D

Seriously, I see design. Beautiful design.

And how wonderful for him that we can appreciate it. That we can sit back and observe his handiwork, astounded at the ordered intricacies in each crystal.

Amazing. I'm still looking at them. Amazing!

[ 01-14-2003, 01:38 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

Jorath, thankyou for posting this. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Chaos laws cannot be avoided, but they leave plenty of loopholes for stubborn dreams of order, life the gratest among them. In the end, however, chaos will prevail.

[ 01-14-2003, 04:58 AM: Message edited by: B_part ]

Wanting?
I know we've been here before Yorick, but I cant resist. There are so many zillions of beutiful things about this planet and the whole universe that is logically expainable with science, snow flakes are not going to convince me,
"sorry".
Maybe you, "want" to believe beuty like this is "created" the same way neandrathal beings wanted to explain out of fear, a shooting star, or fire.

No affence Yorick, but as you may think I just dont uncerstand god, dont assume what a nonbeliever "wants"

WHOA! They're perfect! Very pretty [img]smile.gif[/img]

Nice site Jorath [img]smile.gif[/img]

I believe in God and am, in fact, a christian. Seeing something like this always shows me how it is impossible for him not to exist. Another beautiful thing is a fish's scales up close. The perfection of each individual one is astounding!
Back to the snowflakes, look at the patterns! They almost look like things in our lives, with wings or identifiable heads. The texture is just incredible!

absoloutly beautiful and somewhat "hard-to-believe-yet-somehow-true" in my mind right now :D

Water molecules are, if described simply, roundish in shape.

Round objects pack best into hexagonal shapes (try it with some marbles all of the same size) and ice particles forming a snowflake do the same thing, in that case imagine the middle 'marble' as particle of dust, which is what causes the formation of snowflakes in the first place:


...O.O
..O.O.O
...O.O

The formation of crystals is not even across the whole surface - points sticking out will grow crystal faster than a flat surface hence this will develop from the above structure:

...O...O
....O.O
O.O.O.O.O
....O.O
...O...O

And about no two being alike? Well think about it, no two of *anything* are exactly alike. There is no such thing as a perfect sphere (except as a theoretical concept) for example, no such thing as two objects exactly the same, including marbles, coke cans, chewing gum sticks, or tiny ice particles. The minute imperfections in the initial microscopic particles of ice that form around an imperfectly shaped particle of dust would make it impossible for any two snowflakes to be the same, not so amazing when you think of it that way.

So for me it's science. Doesn't make it any less wondrous or beautiful. [img]smile.gif[/img] Thanks for posting the link.

EDIT: Sorry I had to put dots in my diagrams to make them hold their shape once posted - for some reason my carefully placed spaces collapsed upon posting! So 'O'= an ice particle (or any other basically round object) and '.' = just something I put in so the diagram would look right (sort of). Sorry, it looked better without the dots!

[ 01-15-2003, 09:10 AM: Message edited by: Epona ]

Beautiful, Jorath! Thanks so much for sharing it with us!

Once upon a time a young couple woke up one morning to find a brand new luxury car standing on their drive way. They could not explain its appearance. They did not know ANYONE rich enough to give them such an expensive gift. Extensive research failed to provide any answer as to how it got there. So when they were asked about the new car by their neighbours they explained that the car had just happened. It was an accident that was mathematically bound to occur one day.

Their very sane and caring neighbours got together, and after much discussion took steps to have the couple taken away and placed in a lunatic asylum.

"After all.." said the neighbours to each other "..the whole Universe with all its beauty and intricacy just came out of chaos. It is just a chance occurance, an accident which was mathematically certain to happen over time. But nobody is going to accept that a beautiful and intricately engineered car could simply happen in just the same way. Quite obviously SOMEBODY or OTHER put it there."

Dandad

Hmmm...thought I'd save time and space and put all of my responses in one post. :D

Nacht
************************************************** *******
AMAZING! Wow, those pictures are really beautiful. LOL...You know, I had to shovel/snowblow a few hundred BILLION of those things off the driveway on Christmas and New Years day, and I was pretty honked off about it. But, seeing them on an individual level makes me really appreciate them. Thanks for the great link JC!!

Nacht

************************************************** ******************

:rolleyes:

************************************************** ******************

Might I humbly suggest that you step down off your high horse and remove the (ice) chip from your shoulder? Lighten up dude! Yorick was just expressing A) His opinion, and B) His appreciation of something beautiful. You, on the other hand, have made two extremely rude and condescending posts that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand and which could quite reasonably be considered flames. Perhaps you should lighten up just a teensy bit, sit back, and enjoy the beauty of nature. *SHEESH*

************************************************** ************

ROTFLM(Magik's)AO!!!!! Too funny! Great post Dandad!!

very beautiful..it's amazing,how every single one of them is different from another..oh well...
I did hope that this thread was about cats,but maybe next time :D [img]tongue.gif[/img] cats are the salt of the earth (and chocolate too ;) )

Originally posted by LordKathen:
Wanting?
I know we've been here before Yorick, but I cant resist. There are so many zillions of beutiful things about this planet and the whole universe that is logically expainable with science, snow flakes are not going to convince me, "sorry".

Maybe you, "want" to believe beuty like this is "created" the same way neandrathal beings wanted to explain out of fear, a shooting star, or fire.

No affence Yorick, but as you may think I just dont uncerstand god, dont assume what a nonbeliever "wants"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from Nachtrafe...

Might I humbly suggest that you step down off your high horse and remove the (ice) chip from your shoulder? Lighten up dude! Yorick was just expressing A) His opinion, and B) His appreciation of something beautiful. You, on the other hand, have made two extremely rude and condescending posts that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand and which could quite reasonably be considered flames. Perhaps you should lighten up just a teensy bit, sit back, and enjoy the beauty of nature. *SHEESH*

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually, your wrong. I may be a little sensitive towards comments about the theist view, but I did not state my opinion about the beuty of the snowflakes with saying anything about evolutuion. It would be like me saying, "Wow, look at that beuty in these snowflakes, I cant imagine how anybody could say they are part of a supernatural design" He was not implying anything to me personaly, but was stating a direct opinion at athiests, so I responded. The first "flame" was probly not nescesary, but like you have stated your opinion about me and my posts, so did I. Another thing, I am not the one on a "high horse", just tring to keep the others around here from trampling on me with their horses.

[ 01-16-2003, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: LordKathen ]

Epona, use the < PRE > tag (without the spaces) and you will keep the exact formatting you want, like so:

<PRE>
O O
O O
O O O O O
O O
O O
</PRE>

I looooove this one!
http://www.lowtem.hokudai.ac.jp/~frk...gure/fig1a.gif

Just FYI, my main complaint was...You didn't say anything about the snowflakes at all! All you did was come into a very nice thread and bash Yorick's post. He was expressing his devout belief in God, not trying to convert you. If you had actually posted ON TOPIC, and posted your opinion of the topic, then rebutted Yorick, then perhaps it would have seemed more reasonable. Instead, it seems like nothing more than a petty dig at someone's faith.

One person expressing his or her faith does NOT equate to an indictment of those without it. You admit that Yorick was not, personally, targeting you, yet you made a *completely* personal, and totally uncalled for, attack on him. Sounds pretty 'high horsish' to me. I mean come on! You equate him, by implication, to a neanderthal! That's kind of petty, dont you think?

Anyway...Jorath, I'm sorry for taking your thread [img]graemlins/offtopic.gif[/img] . LK, if you wish to continue discussing this, I would be more than happy to speak to you in PM or via email. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Me too SG! Gorgeous!!

Kathen, would it help if I apologised?

When I saw the snowflakes, I saw the same thing as if I hear a song, see certain painitings, an architectural drawing, a road map, a chord chart, or one of those rice patterns in a telescopy thing. I totally recognised intent, design, process, and orchestration behind their existence. I expressed complete bafflement as to seeing anything other than the conclusion I've mentioned, but then that is part of my CONVICTION.

It's seems the very theist view is offensive to you. How can a theist be utterly convinced - with the logical inclusion that if they are right, then you are wrong - without you being offended?

The pure fact is, that though I love and respect the intellect of atheist friends I have, I cannot accept atheism as an idea, purely on the grounds that you cannot prove that anything does not exist - only that you have not experienced it. See as a CONCEPT alone, God exists in human minds. Even purely as a coping mechanism God exists in human psyche. These are irrefutable. Whether He exists in the way or to the extent we who believe say He does, is another matter. ;)

By declaring atheism, an atheist is attempting to apply their experience of reality universally. If God is not in your reality, then He's not in the farthest reaches of the universe and he's not in the reality of someone that professes to love him, and communicate with him daily.

For me, agnosticism is a far more realistic approach for a person rejecting faith.

"I have no faith in God. He is not real to me, but I don't totally discount the possibility that he might exist."

It allows that there are things outside your experiences.

My statement was perhaps the closest I've come to applying the reality extension of atheism into my theism.

Normally, I do not presume that an atheist has experience of God, although an athesit presumes a theist has NO experience of God. I accept you when you say "I don't know God. Or "I don't believe in God". I don't believe you're insane, chemotropically halucinating or lying.

At this juncture, all I suggested was that perhaps, a person that does not want to believe, will NEVER belief - out of choice - no matter what evidence is placed before them.

Why? Because I found the snowflakes to be more irrefutable evidence. That is my OPINION. The certainty and assurance of that opinion reflected in the strength of the statement. I was however, seeking to make a positive and constructive statement about the incredible beauty of the snowflake.

I'm simply being honest. When I see beauty, I praise God. When I feel joy, I praise God. When I see genius I praise God.

You don't. We each don't understand how the other can possibly think that way.

C'est la vie.

Thanks Jim BTW. ;) [img]smile.gif[/img]

Lets say that I was the first one to reply to this thread, and I said,

"Wow, just look at the perfection and beuty in these snowflakes. They are just perfect. Im sorry, but anyone who says that this is not science at its best and is created through design by some supernatural power, just wants to believe in that, and does NOT want to accept the science of this beutifull world".

How would you guys have responded to this? I dont think it would have been left alone. I did not flame anyone. I have no problem with the theist veiw. I am married to a mormon. You didnt just state your opinion about the beuty being design and your faith in that, you presumed what a nonbeliever wants to believe. I dont reject faith or god, there is nothing to reject. To reject something you need to have it first, right? You brought the other side of the argument into this thread first by your presumptious words. You defend your faith by denouncing our opinion and say we are just rejecting god. Well, like you said we will never fully understand each other. I am sorry for jumping to my "horse", but I did not see a reason for your words. You could have just thanked your god for this beuty and moved on.

Bygons Yorich.

[ 01-20-2003, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: LordKathen ]

Hmm, is that a sub-species of the common mormon? :D

Well, at least you didn't omit the second "m" - now that's an embarassing typo! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

oops!...

Lord K, if you had answered that way it wouldn't have bothered ME, and I'm a devout Christian. You know I've read lots of your posts and we've shared a laugh or 3 so I have no problem with you or your choices in life, but sometimes it seems that you're a bit 'touchy' when anyone mentions their religious beliefs here and most of the time I don't think they have the least little thought of harrassing or offending you! I know I certainly don't!

I have several friends here who are agnostic or atheist and they don't get defensive if I say something reminds me of God or religious thoughts...they just move on and so do I. I don't think Yorick's post was meant to force feed his beliefs on anyone, he was just amazed and awed and expressing his deep conviction that God exists for him. Maybe if you feel threatened or offended by such comments, it might be best to pm the poster and ask if he/she MEANT to do that with his post or if you just misinterpreted his intentions? I think you'll find that most of us have no intention of trying to change or ridicule your beliefs by simply posting what ours are. [img]smile.gif[/img]

edit: I think maybe that one line of Yorick's is what offended you- but seriously it might be better to just agree to disagree on this one...I read his comment as just a manifestation of his overwhelming joy at seeing something so perfect that he felt it had to be God's work, not a manifesto against anyone who disbelieves. [img]smile.gif[/img]

OK, let's all smile and enjoy those gorgeous snowflakes no matter HOW they were created!

[ 01-20-2003, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: Cloudbringer ]

I agree. Like I said, bygons. I admited that I am a little defensive at times. I just feel that he oversteped just expresing his love and faith by saying he was "sorry, but...anyone...just doesnt want to believe..." He invited me in with his presumption. I will let this go. I do think I am the one being misread here. This got blown out of proportion, and totally off topic, I opologise. I will PM next time.

<font color="cyan">Firstly, on the topic of snowflakes, they are gorgeous. As the title states, Godlike Perfection.

Secondly - I do believe in God. I think. The reason I state this, is because I believe something must have created the very first particle of bacteria, the very first piece of life. From there, I believe EVERYTHING evolved. I believe everything is down to maths (after all, science stems from maths).

Ok, everything in this world is Maths or Science. No fate. No destiny. No "it was meant to be", and "God wanted it this way". So I beleive there is something. I do not go to church except at Baptisms, Weddings and funerals and such. I only pray if someone I know dies, or I really need something to go my ways in times of depseration. I sometimes believe I'm praying to thin air, while I'm praying. But I'm keeping the door open, and hoping that I am wrong. I'm hoping that maths and science are merely concepts created by God in his allknowing wisdom.

I am sorta siding with Lord K on this one. Fair enough, people have different views on this, but I do believe sometimes people overstep their mark on their religion. Well, actually, I believe only one person does this, and sorry to say it is you Yorrick. I'm not condeming you for your faith, but I can see why Lord Kathen gets defensive, as it does rouse feelings inside of me. I can't explain the feelings, but they are more sided towards pity (of being so dependant on something that you cannot prove or substantiate) and anger (that you have to blatently shout about your faith and try and make others renounce theirs/or feel bad about being atheist). My mum is a Christian, my Dad is an atheist. I don't think religion ever comes up, they accept different sides.

I'm getting myself muddled up here. Back to the pity side. This is a two sided emotion I get. I do feel the negative side, but with this feeling of pity comes a feeling of jealousy and of envy, where I envy your happiness and devotion to God, and I'm jealous that I do not have this feeling. I wish I did. Whether then I would shoult about it or not I do not know.

I agree totally with your statement about the concept of God existing, just because he is set into the minds of people who don't even believe in him. I think that is a very good point. I think the comment about people not having experiances, hence not believing is also very good.

But I have tried to put stuff down to God. Recently, I was in a very serious car accident, with me driving (CRASH) and many have said afterwards that I should be dead. They also say my passengers were also very lucky to come out of such a high speed accident. Now, I'm thanked God for surviving, as when I look at how the roof crashed above my head, but there is still that empty feeling. Surely, it was all mathmatical that I was thrown away from the collapsing roof. I've never felt special enough to say :"Thank God, I'm alive".

Thats why I side with Lord Kathens opinions, as I can see where all his points come from. I've been very honest with my religious feelings here, and for someone who isn't religious like me, it was hard to do. Now, I am apologising NOW for any remarks I have made that are offensive, as I expect some will be. I don't intend this. Please just point them out nicely?

Thanx for reading,

Brad</font>

Well, I was hoping someone would side with me here. I certainly have no problem at all with Yorich or his faith. That would be rediculous. His presumption of a nonbelievers thoughts or feelings was where he crossed over. I also know he wasnt targeting me personally, and I could have let it go, but, with all the things going on in the country right now concerning athieism (pledge of alegence, boy scouts, etc...) I feel it is my duty to stand up to presumption. For example, locally in our herald somebody wrote a letter to the editor in the opinions section saying how shamefull it was that an athiest could think he could posably be a leader in the boyscouts. I replied to that to, saying that im tired of the prejudice towards athiests. Now im sure Yorich intended none of this, but his comment about "grabbing tin hat" meant something.
Thank you for your words Brad. I am glad you are ok after the wreck and sorry about your car.

<font color="cyan">NP dude.

I wasn't trying to flame Yorick in any way....or anything. Just trying to get my opinions across.</font>

No worries! I like to see your posts, but I just thought that the snowflakes were too pretty to argue about! :D Ok, Ok, it wasn't the snowflakes being the problem, I know. And I think I do see your point.

Lav, I'm really glad you're ok, or at least mending! That crash could have been so much worse. :(

Kathen, just as a matter of interest, what would you need to see/sense/feel/experience to accept God existed? What do you determine as 'necessary proof'.

Maybe you and Lord K should take that discussion to pm or another thread Yorick. [img]smile.gif[/img] This one is all about SNOW [img]smile.gif[/img]