The Yemen Government claims the SCUDs are for 'defensive purposes' and are legally entitled to them. If thats true then why did they hide them beneath cement bags on an unflagged ship? Why the secrecy? Who do they need these SCUD missiles to defend them selves from anyway? It seems to me that they arent telling the whole truth. It was initially feared that these SCUDs were heading to terrorist organisations. Can the Yemen Government be trusted to keep them out of terrorist hands?

I'm curious how one uses a scud as a defensive weapon ? It has no intercepting capabilities. These missiles go straight to the wrong people and will probably be used against Israel once they have them. I've understood they are giving them back Yemen...well, that's just stupid. That country is one big pirates nest, you don't want them to have anything of that kind of stuff. Like all other Arabs, they do nothing but lie about their REAL intentions. A scud as a defensive weapon.....yeah right.

<font color="#ff00cc">Morning Johnny! The Yemeni Government used their last batch of SCUDS defensively when their citizens revolted in civil war. The SCUDS were used to defensively blow the civilians to smithereens. </font>

*shakes head in disapproval*

It was actually the North Koreans who hid the SCUDs on the unflagged ship. ;)

*shakes head in disapproval*</font>[/QUOTE]Shake all you want.

Yeah, i know that, they are just as wrong. but it were probably the Yemenites who gave the orders to do so. Or do you think the North Koreans are trying to hide that they are selling these things ?

And the Yemen Government wouldnt have known about it? I think not. Why would they go along with that if they had nothing to hide?

The North Koreans hid these items because they have and continue to deny proliferating ballastic weapons.

Yemen may or may not have known this shipment was being secretly transported without benefit of flag, but if they wanted to deny involvement, they easily could have because the items weren't listed on the ship's manifest, and it would have been their word against the North Korean's.

They stepped up and said, "hey, that's our crap." LOL! :D

Because they didn't deny involvement, I tend to believe the items are for their military(though defensive use is doubtful) and not for distribution to terrorists. Yemen has been working with us. Now, I do realize that doesn't automatically make them innocent. ;)

It makes it difficult on relations because we were in negotiations with them on banning purchases like these, but no agreements were made yet.

[ 12-15-2002, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

If these scud missles work like the ones Saddam had for the gulf war then there is nothing to worry about. A kid with a pellet gun in both more accurate and more dangerous.

The problem with scuds is, that you can put all kinds of warheads on it, including chemical and biological devices. I don't think a kid with a pellet gun can do that, do you ?

Sorry for going off-topic...

*shakes head in disapproval*</font>[/QUOTE]Shake all you want.</font>[/QUOTE]And I will. For as long as you keep on generalizing about how all Arabs are liars and evil and deserve to be nuked (as you've stated before on this board) I *will* shake my head in disapproval, yes. You and many others are only helping to widen the gap between the Western and Arab culture, increase the mistrust by generalizing an entire culture, millions of people with a mind of their own with only a small group of them fitting your descriptions and those of people with similar ideas as you have. Only causing more misunderstandings, awkward situations and eventually mistrust and even hate among those who were falsely accused. If you keep profiling and stereotyping innocent people long enough, they will only be pushed more and more in the direction of that negative stereotype. They may even live up to that stereotype in the end, by turning all that unjustified negative stereotyping into hate they focus on those who accused them of crimes they did not commit. You think they hate you, they think you hate them; it's a vicious circle, spiralling into oblivion sooner or later.

And yes, there are rotten apples among the Arabs, just like there are plenty of deeply rotten apples among Americans and Europeans. Both cultures have brought terrible destruction upon each other in the past few decades, there's no denying that either. But just like I do not wish to be held responsible for carpetbombing Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq and whatever country "us" Western people have meddled with over the years, the largest part of the Arabian populace doesn't want anything to do with the 9/11 disaster either.
"But on CNN they show images of anti-Western sentiments in those Arabian countries, angry mobs burning American flags and Bush dolls and all." Yes, Some groups of people in the Middle-East may accuse the US and capitalism for their poverty, for their misfortune - but that hate has more to do with misunderstandings and ignorance than with actually being evil or liars. It's the cultural gap causing all this friction, with hate coming forth from not being familiar with eachother's customs and habits; from paranoia, mistrust. "We" think their traditions are barbaric, "they" think we're barbaric (after all, most of what they ever get to see of the Western civilization is an aeroplane dropping bombs on them :rolleyes: ).
And there's of course the "Blame Them" culture playing a role in all of this, proven to be succesful all throughout history. Blame others of your misfortune and poverty and hate them for that. Whether religious groups of people (Catholics, Protestants, Christians in general, Jews, Muslims, pagans, Hindus etc.) or people hated for their political beliefs (communists, capitalists), they've all had their fair share of being accused of something they weren't responsible for, but *were* accused of in waves of mass-hysteria, people incited by some charismatic loudmouth to mark them as "evil" and thinking that removing these "evil elements" from their society would solve everything or would keep their society pure and safe from harm.
I truely hope this entire "us" against "them" culture currently between the Western World and the Middle-East won't escalate any further... And that people like you *realize* exactly what you're saying when you're making such a statement concerning every single Arab in the world. And don't get me wrong, this has nothing to do with being overly political-correct or that I'm denying you your freedom of speech, but I just think you're going too far. I'll be blunt. If you really believe all Arabs are liars, evil and deserve to be nuked, you scare me more than they ever will. :(

Thanx Grojlach.

Very well said. Intolerance will be the downfall of us all.

Mark

Blah blah blah

I like it how you’ve completly ignored what he said.
Prejudice is oft born of ignorance.
Maybe You should trying reading some History?
The Middle east was a bastion of civilisation while europe went under in the dark ages, We got much maths from there I belive (they got some from India IIRC)
There's also a 1001 nights Which Is a Literary classic.
There's Saladin who compared to his western rivals was a paragon of virtue.
Gosh and a lot more I can't remember now. Maybe there's someone who does or has qualified in Middle East Studies here?

HTH.
TIA.
HAND.

[ 12-15-2002, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: Eisenschwarz ]

I like it how you’ve completly ignored what he said.
Prejudice is oft born of ignorance.
Maybe You should trying reading some History?
The Middle east was a bastion of civilisation while europe went under in the dark ages, We got much maths from there I belive (they got some from India IIRC)
There's also a 1001 nights Which Is a Literary classic.
There's Saladin who compared to his western rivals was a paragon of virtue.
Gosh and a lot more I can't remember now. Maybe there's someone who does or has qualified in Middle East Studies here?

HTH.
TIA.
HAND.</font>[/QUOTE]I've read more history than you'll ever know, but that won't change my point of view, and stop bringing up how civilized the middle east was in those days. Those days are long gone, and Islam turned THEM into the dark ages now. We,ve stopped the crusades hundreds of years ago, but they're still pissed off about that. Osama bin Laden compares himself to Saladin, i think it's HIM who didn't read his historybooks. But then again, middle east history books aren't all that trustworthy. History lessons in Iraq for instance, teach us that Iraq won the Gulfwar. I must have been on another planet at that time, cause on the planet i was on, Iraq got his behind kicked... big time !

Gosh, You think?
I mean, I have also read a huge amount of history books,
But unfortunately I tend to forget much of it :o(

Islam Is a relegion of Peace, love and justice etc in the same way that chrisianity is.
If I beat someone with a stick and say god made me do it, It no more makes christianity responsible than is An Alaskan Malamute in Texas is.

If Osama Bin laden didn't have Islam he'd have something else.

For the greater good...

That can be just as powerful a drive as religion in causeing evil.
Look at the soviet union.

A whole Bunch of people invaded your lands claiming that their religion was the only true religion. They then killed lots of people, They Massacred over 40,000 women and children when they took Jerusalem,
Would you be pissed of for a long time if that happened?

In northern Island catholics & protestents are still at each others throats may I remind you.

All Totaliterian states do the same, Iraq is a secular dictatorship,
Saddams evil has nothing to do with Islam and everythign to do with his desire to keep his grasp on power.
Japan in the "dark valley" Changed history in textbooks and so did the Soviet union etc.

HTH
HAND.

Whatever Dramnek. Some passages in the Koran say literally that muslims have a sacred duty to spread Islam all over the world, if not possible peacefully, then force is allowed. Now tell me again Islam is peaceful.

So does the bible, It depends on how you interpret the religion.
Religion is something that takes on a life of its own, from an idea it can become an ideology.
Anything, when applied in a fundamentalist way can be a creator of evil.
Look at the Soviet Union (again).

[ 12-15-2002, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Eisenschwarz ]

Agreed, the bible doesn't make any sense to me either, but let's not go there in this topic. :D

What I think is fasciating is that Osama seems obsessed with two far-off events: The loss of Spain to the Franks and the fall of the Caliphate. This baffles me as much as people who are still fighting the Civil War. As for Northern Ireland, the more that I read about it, the less I understand. Again, you have a group of people who are upset at the Result of the Battle of the Boyne (1688?) and Lord Randolph Churchill saying "Ulster will fight, and Ulster will be right."

Doing a little research, and found this:

Underlying most of the individual grievances is a sense that Islam has lost its rightful place of dominance, the place it enjoyed half a millennium ago. Al Qaeda deputy Ayman Zawahiri's allusions to the loss of Andalusia (medieval Spain) reinforce Osama bin Laden's promise of revenge and redemption.

Here is the link.
EDIT: To add:"Kuwait was and is part of Iraq in term of language, race and religion and most countries in Middle East were part of 1300 years old Caliphate destroyed by the Western powers with weapons of mass destruction during 1916s."Link

Also, this:A third competing contemporaneous caliphate was established by the Fatimids in Africa, Syria, and Egypt (909-1171). After the fall of Baghdad to the Mongols under Hulagu Khan in 1258, the Abbasids fled to Egypt. The Ottomans captured Egypt in 1517 and Selim I assumed the title of caliph by questionable right. The Ottoman sultans, however, kept the title until the last sultan, Muhammad VI, was deposed. He was succeeded briefly by a cousin, but in 1924 the caliphate was abolished by Ataturk. A year later Husayn ibn Ali, king of Arabia, proclaimed himself caliph, but he was forced to abdicate by Ibn Saud. Since then several pan-Islamic congresses have attempted to establish a rightful caliph. Link

[ 12-15-2002, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: Attalus ]

Just because you can arm them with nasty stuff , that doesnt make them reliable of accurate. If I remember correctly only around 10% of the Scud missles Saddam launched in the Gulf war hit anything!! The rest either were shot down,didnt fire, or were horribly off target.

Hunter, if a SCUD is equipped with a chemical device, it doesn't HAVE to be accurate. just launch one in the direction of a crowded area, and casualties will be numerous.

What has all of this to do with Yemen's SCUD's :confused:

As for the defence issue - everybody knows that offense is the best defence ;) (compare to the new 'defense' strategy of USA)

And now we get into the idea of pre-emptive strikes as a form of defense. John Howard a few weeks ago said he would, if he could, protect Australian borders with pre-emptive strikes. Alot of south-east asia countries werent too happy about that and started complaining. Even though i believe he was talking about Iraq - it seems like a case of guilty conscious to me. Under current UN rules he cant use pre-emptive strikes as a form of defense anyway but he wants to change that. If it was changed, i sure the Israelis wouldnt put up with Palestinian suicide bombers for much longer.

A point about arabs:

They respect strength.

Everything in arab culture is about strength. If you show weakness, you are expected to submit. There is no shame in submitting to a dominant culture in arab. There is great shame in submitting when you are the stronger. An examination of middle-eastern history shows many examples of this

One thing that really irritates me about the arab apologists here and in the states is how they think that war won't solve the problem, and diplomacy is the only way to handle the terrorist problem.

The biggest problem with this terrorist situation is that they already perceive the american culture as weak because of the focus on peacemaking. All that has to be done is to convince the arabs they are weaker.

How do you do that, you ask?

Step on them Bomb 'em, shoot 'em, obliterate them until they scream "uncle". Do whatever it takes to show them who is stronger. Until this is done, the arabs won't submit and the terrorism will continue.

Ask any muslim what the term "world peace" means.

World Islamic Dominance.

<font color="#ff00cc">Tolerating the wrong things can cause just as many deaths Mark.

But in this case, I kind of think Gro. has a point, the "just like all arabs" is a bit too much for my taste.
</font>

<font color="#ff00cc">About preemptive strikes: you know in war, there is this thing called "intelligence" this is not refering to how bright someone is, this refers to information gathered from sources, and if those souorces show you where your enemy is staging his forces for an attack, you would be a complete idiot not to hit them at that place "BEFORE" they attacked. Sheesh, only a complete maroon would say catagoricly that preemptive attacks are wrong. </font>

Okay, I just asked the girl I work with. She said it means what it says! "Peace around the world." Should I ask another? I'd rather not because the first girl now thinks I'm strange!

[ 12-16-2002, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: Donut ]

Okay, I just asked the girl I work with. She said it means what it says! "Peace around the world." Should I ask another? I'd rather not because the first girl now thinks I'm strange!</font>[/QUOTE]:D

That may be because she's been americanized. Either that or she isn't really clued in to what you're asking. I'm quite serious in saying that, it's a direct quote from a number of muslims (notably some from south africa, a hotbed of islamic activity)

Sir Krustin. This is from the CIA World Fact Book on South Africa.

Religions
Christian 68% (includes most whites and Coloreds, about 60% of blacks and about 40% of Indians), Muslim 2%, Hindu 1.5% (60% of Indians), indigenous beliefs and animist 28.5%

South Africa is <u>NOT</u> a hotbed of islamic activity.

Maybe South Africa has been Americanized?

[ 12-17-2002, 01:35 AM: Message edited by: Djinn Raffo ]

You actually said ask any muslim. Now you are saying that you heard it from a number of muslims. Please don't generalise.

I asked the muslim girl I work with if she is americanised and she tells me that she has never been to america in her life although she hopes to go to disneyworld one day. She still thinks I'm even more strange after asking that, but now I'm blaming you.

Generalisations and assumptions - don't cha just love 'em!

You’re a Racist.

HTH.

You’re a Racist.

HTH.[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]And you are a flamer. That will be enough of that, Eisenschwarz.

Have you ever been there? I can introduce you to some South Africans. Come on over.

EDIT>Reflecting on this, I thought I should clarify...Al Qaeda and Bin Laden are well known in SA. Lots of muslims in SA name their children after Bin Laden as he is their hero. Long before most Americans ever heard the name, he blew up everything American in SA in the name of his pet obsession. Yes, SA is a hotbed of islamic activity.

When the two towers were hit, some SA friends of mine immediately blamed Bin Laden for it. Lots of people thought they were psychic. :D

[ 12-17-2002, 07:12 AM: Message edited by: Sir Krustin ]

You’re a Racist.

[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Have you ever met me? No I'm not a racist, I am actually quoting muslims here.

YOU are a troll.

Would a pre-emptive Nuclear strike on the Soviet union by the USA have therefore been okay?
What about during the 7-day crisis in Cuba?
How close did we come to war then? Very close IIRC.
What if someone then had decided then to make a pre-emptive strike?
After all, It’s not like the soviet union was anything but an evil empire, But Would a war with them have caused the destruction of life as we know it?
Probably.

You’re a Racist.

</font>[/QUOTE]Have you ever met me? No I'm not a racist, I am actually quoting muslims here.

YOU are a troll.[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]You’re trying to tar all Muslims with the same brush.
There are some Germans who are neo-nazis, therefore all Germans are neo-nazis.
You see how it works?