I'm wondering how this works, logically.

You can't be an half-elven paladin, or a dwarf paladin, but if your dad is the evil god of murder (making you only half-human), then it's ok to be a paladin? I was thinking of playing through as some kind of holy class, and as a paladin is more useful (in my experience) than a cleric, I figured I'd give it a try. But if I can't work it out logically, then I probably won't bother.

Also, how does one be Lawful Good? I read the description in the PHB, DMG, and all the game instructions, and it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. For example, in that undercover mission for the fallen knights in BG2, are you technically doing something wrong because you are deceiving them? Also, helping out Xzar in the Harper's quest in BG2 is necessary to unlock some of Jah's later quests. Would a LG character have to skip on it because Xzar is evil? These are just a couple of examples. I'd appreciate any kind of help in clearing up this alignment for me.

Thanks.

before mating with any female, Bhaal assumed an avatar in the form of the species he wanted to mate with. Merely because you have some of the essence of Murder in you doesn't make you evil. You could strive against your nature, and try to overcome it. Paladins are awesome.

As for LG, always do the right thing. Honor, duty, justice, etc. are your main goals. You must uphold society and its laws and regulations in order to subdue the evil nature of some people. With a highly organized system, everyone flourishes. Also, for the Paladin quests, you can say that you want to kill them all in the beginning, before even getting Anarg's cup, and you still finish the quest (i think). Even so, you are deceiving those that are inherently deceitful, so it is not bad. Choose all dialog options that say something like "i will right this terrible injustice and bring honor once again to blah blah blah..."

Don't do Xzar's quests if you can't logically do them as a Paladin. You should be romancing Aerie anyway, and Anomen is much more fitting for a paladin party than Jaheira, so don't worry about it.

I can't romance Aerie, she annoys me too much. As for Jah, I want a druid in my party (I'm also playing with through BG1 first with Jah, Khalid, Minsc, Dynaheir, Imoen, and Me). As for a cleric, I was actually thinking of Vic. I'm going to have a lot of muscle in my party, and IMO Vic is a better cleric. Which brings another question. Would a LG character save her? If the law in the area is it kill drow, then probably not, but yet the LG char would be letting an innocent die, which is also bad.

The Lawful Good thing is still kind of a trip. There's a thin line between righteous and self-righteous, and it seems that paladins cross it frequently. If you ask me, self-righteousness is evil, or at least not good.

I have to wonder, what kind of law does a LG character follow? It can not be his own law (as that would make him/her chaotic), but can it be the law of it's faith? This way, if the LG sees a societies with laws it believe to be offensive to the tenets of his/her faith, then s/he can intervene. This way it takes the moral question out of the societal context and replaces it with something simple like "What would Jesus do?"

First of all, why would a LG person (Paladin) take a NE character (Viconia) into a party? If you're worried about role-playing on that aspect, that would be the biggest violation of all! [img]graemlins/uhoh1.gif[/img]

The "god" of Paladins is Torm; the god of Justice. Paladins also follow Helm, the Guardian or Protector. If you're playing by the laws of the deities, those of Torm or Helm would be the ones you would use to define your actions.

As has been said, acting out that which is Good and Right is not necessarily that which is in the dictates of Society. Amnian law, so infiltrated by the Shadow Thieves on the council and the Cowled Wizards, is pretty evil and corrupt to the core; Bylanna Ialunin (sp?), the puppet ruler of the Council, although "good", is pretty freakin' ineffective, and Isaea Roenall, the captain of the Amnian guard, is as dirty dealing as they come. Even the Harpers that you would be going against are pretty rotten through and through, as you would know if you play with Jaheira in your party. So any quests you do, even the Thieves' Guild quest, could be justified under the actions of a Paladin (cleansing out a corrupt guild of thieves in that case).

Cheers,
-Sazerac

No, saving Vic isn;t being evil, it;s beign hella justifiable.

Think, she didn't do anythig against the law, except being a certain race. Unless she's a mace weilding orc I don't see the problem in doing that justice.

By the way, you guys can goody two shoes your way through the game, I'll get laid at the Coppor Coronet

PEACE!!

Forget getting laid at the copper coronet, im going to the underdark, that women in the tavern is trained in the arts of f***ing....

[ 06-16-2002, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: Sazerac ]

Might want to consider editing your post, robohobodude. No need to replace the word, just use asterisks. Got to remember, while this is not a kiddy forum, it is a family forum.

I don't think there is anything wrong with freeing Vic, or even having her in the party. She may be an evil person, but so what? From a roleplaying perspective, if she's in the party, I can keep an eye on her and keep her from doing evil.

And as for the law, I would think that a LG character puts faith and his/her code over society and it's law. There are countless exceptions as to when a paladin can break the law, but to break his or her code, there are few if any.

i am a paladin... an undead hunter...and tread the righteous path. while i say that though, any half decent adventurer needs to lay back and 'rest' everynow and then. any way a man can only but ahve man thoughts and urges..hehe. ;)

I would have to say bow down before Vic,IMO, DROW ARE THE BEST, and especially vic, shes just so evil and drowish, if you know what I mean, follow her worship her, ROMANCE HER

I love drow

My Lone Sorcerer needed soem Cleric Support, why not Drow?

Vic rules, escpeccially romancing with her. I just got past the first part of beign her Ideal man, Now I gotta wait for the Insult throwing and finally the good stuff. :D

By the way, is it possible to go to Suddenlesser with a Drow?

Thank you, Dundee Slaytern. Robohobodude, please do keep your language to within PG-13 specs. I've edited the offending word for you...please do so yourself in future.

-Sazerac

Just my $0.02 on Paladins.

Yes, they are Lawful Good. However, I like to think they are LG by following Torm's Law, and are not bounded by societies' law. That does not mean they are lawless however; since if the societies' laws are not flawed, then there will be no problem.

There is a fine thin line between blind obedience and rightful duty.

Even during the Paladin Stronghold's quests, this is pointed out when you are asked to mediate between the Lord and the farmers. Your Paladin technically 'disobeyed' orders by not following the Lord's orders, but does the Order reprimand you? Nay, they praised you for uncovering the Lord's wrongful plans.

Sure, it is entirely plausible that the Order will have initial doubts when you bring Viconia into your party; but surely it is a Paladin's duty to rehabilitate people as well? After all, it is not as though Viconia was charging towards you with Mace raised. Nay my friend, she was tied to a stake. Tied to a stake for the sole reason that she is a Drow. People fear what they do not know or understand, and the fact that she comes from an infamous race did not help. This does not mean that she should be condemned though. I mean, there are good Drow in the world, Drizzt being the most famous of them.

Unless you are roleplaying an Inquisitor( which Keldorn incidentally happens to be one), there is no real reason for you to deem her guilty before a trial. The path will not be easy, the path will be long, but slowly but surely, you can teach Viconia to reform her ways. This is rewarded in ToB when you finally change her alignment.

Paladins should give her a chance first, as they are meant to be fair, not radicals or fanatics, unless like I said, you are roleplaying an Inquisitor.

If you do not know the significance of Inquisitors, go to Google and search up on the Spanish Inquisition.

My Cavalier had no problem rescuing Viconia, twice. once at the stake and after getting Vampirised.

I think he made the right decision, becuase ultimately she will change alignment based on your actions toward her. Isn't that a good thing?

Depends.

My evil party (one guy) as no intention of changing her alignment.

I likey me pretties dark, powerful, and evil, hehehehehehehe

Personally, I would think that "blind obedience" would be more along the lines of Lawful Neutral, whereas Right Action (rightful duty) would be Lawful Good.

I agree, and rescuing Viconia is "right action." From what I understand, Beshaba isn't a very nice goddess either and those followers are rabid fanatics. I also know that Viconia is rehabilitable, but it takes ToB to work that out. ;) Strictly by the rules of the road, I would think it would be rather difficult for a Paladin to accept a NE drow into his/her party, although it's definitely within LG standards to have rescued her.

Well...ahem, the Spanish Inquisition, I think most people would agree, was the perfect example of a Lawful Evil organization, like the Cowled Wizards. "Inquisitors" in the Forgotten Realms sense would be more like Enforcers of Torm's Law, but definitely Lawful Good. A wise Inquisitor would be like an ultimate judge...looking for the Truth rather than pronouncing their already pat decision based on their own agendas. Think of the Prelate who judges Anomen at the Radiant Heart...that would be the ultimate example of a good Inquisitor.

(BTW, the Spanish Inquisition was like the first Holocaust, as it was largely targeted at ridding Europe of the Jews; it was ultimately Anti-Semitic.)

Cheers,
-Sazerac

yes, but the elves make her swear her obiedence to you

MINOR SPOILER

Picture the two undercover cops in the movie Traffic. They would - from what is shown of them in the movie - qualify as lawful good. Yet the lie to the drug dealer during the sting.

As for taking Viconia in...

I disagree Sazerac. Depending on temperament, a LG Paladin might very well take Viconia in and attempt to save her from the evil of her ways (which dovetails nicely with the arc of the Viconia story)

If you read the Paladin description in the players handbook, 1st or second edition, as you said you have, they cannot have evil henchmen and neutrals are taken only so long as they "behave themselves" their preferable company would be other like-minded charcters, ie lawful good, neutral good is close enough for them to work well together. So he would free Viconia from the mob, but he wouldn't travel with her, but he couldn't kill her unless she did something evil which he had proof of, and then she would be brought to trial, not mob justice, or the paladin's blade as an excuse.

Paladins work on their own personal code of honor, which is usually placed secondary to their churches/government's in the case of a noble, normally the two are in agreement, however when they are not the paladin may be forced to become an expatriot, he forsakes the organization that has become corrupt from his personal beliefs, ie if he was a baron in Amn, and his duties to the state forced him to do something against his vows he would not do them.

If one of societies laws are evil, then they don't follow them, such as in the drow city where worship of Lolth(human spelling, not drowish) is mandated and those who don't are killed, or exiled.

[ 06-19-2002, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: Morgeruat ]

well, .. he is playing the LG paladin, so whatever his LG paladin is doing is what that LG paladin would be doing in such a situation, heh, makes sense ;)

If you follow the ADnD-rules, or scripts from books or something, that would tend to get a bit boring i think, there is no way you could write down every special exception and such.

I personally think, rescuing and taking viconia in the party... while you're not allowed, makes it more interesting. Disobey orders because you know its the right thing .. although most other paladins interpret the law diferently ... have a very harsh life, and be happy when you finally do manage to change her alignment.
Put personal code in front of the church i guess

You cant follow the law, or a god's law for that matter, to the letter ... else all christians would eb hunting snakes and such now..

[img]smile.gif[/img] Just my €0.02 [img]smile.gif[/img]

P.s. Im a lowlife powergamer, so if this doesnt make sense .. hey, i tried :D

Sorry to bring an old post up. I was reading though, saw this, and, decided to chime in.

Not all Paladins are the same, nor do all of them serve Torm.

Paladins serve all sorts of good and neutral Gods. Lathander, Helm, Torm, etc. A large part of a Paladin's actions would be determined by their faith.

A Paladin of Lathander for example, would become your classic undead hunter. In the case of Viccy, yes, he would bring her along, take her under his protection, and, try to get some sort of rebirth, bringing her into the light. Lathander demands the redemption of evil, not the slaughter. However, in game, this is hard to play out. Undead hunters hunt the dead, and, in general, do not like having to kill the living.

A Paladin of Torm on the other hand, would slay Viccy outright. She is Drow. Therefore, she is evil by default. He would also try to slay Drizzt should he ever find him. Torm is all about following the law to the letter. He is a cold unfeeling heartless bastard in my book. There is no redemption for evil, only punishment. This is what makes Keldorn so confusing for me in game. The moment he finds out the main character is a Bhaalspawn, Keldorn would spit him on his sword. If the main character was a Paladin of Torm, would he fall on his own sword to purge evil? This makes little sense.

A Paladin of Helm is a judge of sorts. He seeks the truth in all issues, then passes judgement. He would not allow Viccy to be burned. He would infact, start thumping the local peasants heads for taking the law into their own hands. He would then hold trial on the spot, and, make his judgement from there. If he deemed Viccy as evil, she would die. If instead, he gave her a chance to prove her self, he would allow her to live only under his personal arrest. She would have to stay with him constantly, under watch, till he was able to figure out her actions.

If you dig into it any deeper, it would only get more complicated.

There is no reason to skip this quest. Montaron may be evil, despicable and untrustworthy but he is, unlawfully being held prisoner by the Harpers. A Paladin would have no problem mounting a rescue attempt with the plan of turning Monty and Xzar over to the proper authorities once completed.

From a role-playing point of view, I always assumed Gorion arranged to have my character educated as a Paladin - an attempt by the venerable sage to counteract the inborn tendencies of one god by intilling duty to another. Hey, it worked. [img]smile.gif[/img]