I hate how the Democratic party's ties to big labor befoul its existence as a party. Hell, if it weren't for big labor, 50% of my problems with democrats would be gone. Not that there are only 2 problems I see with Democrats, just that fully 1/2 of the list, when weighted for importance, centers around this connection.

Chicago - this weekend. Dominick, owned by Chi-based Safeway, foods workers voted 80% to strike. Dominick had offered what one unioneer said was "fair" contract offers. Dominick said it would fold as a Co. if it couldn't work this out. The union responded, assholes that they are, "we have a buyer or two lined up." Well, it's going to fold by the end of this week. Now, workers will be out-of-work for a minimum of months. So, in my view they paid parts of their salaries to a labor union that, in the end, got them in the rear end. Who cares if they didn't get a 20% raise now?

And Dominick is a perfect example of how bloated labor kills a business. They had the nicest groceries in Chicago. I didn't shop there, though. Their labor costs and hot-bar-la-te-da-yuppie-food section drove the prices on regular GROCERIES too high, so I shopped at the cheaper competitor. Now, the labor union will find some sucker to buy up the business so it can again fail for the same reasons?

Anyway, labor unions had their heyday and their time and place. And association with them was about safety as much as anything - plus a fair length to the work day (as an attorney I ROFLMAO at people who think 60 hours is a long work week). But, IMHO, the creation of OSHA obviated the need for labor unions. And, their current existence, a la Dominick, et al, pisses me off.

The political schizophrenia I mentioned is the flip-flopping of the parties. The conventional wisdom I grew up with was that the Rep party was smart money-wise and made the country richer, while the Dem party had the little man in mind and tried to lift up the poor.

What crap. The Reagan/Bush1 years certainly proved that Reps can run a deficit and be as fiscally irresponsible as anyone, and the Clinton years proved that even a trailor-park-trash administration (if we get off on a trailor park tangent again - I swear I'll scream) could make the country money. While the current actions of Dem parties nation-wide to be in bed with big labor, which stands on the broken backs of its members, certainly shows that party no longer has the little man in mind as anything other than a false icon and source of revenue.

[img]graemlins/rant.gif[/img] off.

[ 11-11-2002, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

<font color="#33cc33">Your skewed opinion of Reagan and his policies aside,
I agree. Unions have outlived their usefullness. I will admit My father used to be union president of a local subdivision of the teamsters for years but he has come around to see that the unions don't really help the people that are its members. The only time a Union really is worth anything is if the worker cant think for them selves or negotiate his or her own contract. As you said state and federal laws have pretty much gaurenteed at least tolerable treatment for the regular hourly worker (non-exempt?) Skilled salaried workers have frequently out performed union workers in salaries and perks, albeit we do seem to end up working more hours. </font>

Unions are only as usefull as the employer lets them be. I dont realy see what a union can to if you tell them to shove it. Ooooohhh, they are going to go on strike!! Last time I checked not showing up to work was grounds for termination. So go ahead and strike, it is easier to replace you if you fire yourself.

<font color="#33cc33">That really only works if the company has a large enough unemployed labor force to hire new employees from, you also have to consider training time. It is no small expense to the company if its labor force strikes. The cost can drive many companies into bankruptcy.</font>

Hunter, I just... don't... think you understand. If there's a collective bargaining agreement, you've got to no other places. More generally, scabs busting through picket lines have created some of the more bloody battles labor unions have ever fought. The mine workers in America fought bitter battles regarding union rights, and though the UMWA's size was ultimately *very* limited due to the successful efforts of the business owners, President T. Roosevelt had to go to great pains to stop the bloodshed.

Besides, what if it's skilled labor and there is nowhere else to get it? The seamstress union buttoned down (punny, no?) the business so tight in the USA that there was no alternative labor force - and the industry simply left the country.

Finally, that sort of thinking causes bodies to turn up afloat in the Chicago River in this town. And I am not kidding.

[edit]

I should really write more on this, but time is short. I will say that I heard a construction contractor discussing it on an airline flight to Miami I was on. He did construction in both places. In Miami, it's very straightforward: hey, I need a carpenter, you know one? In Chicago, if you're not using a union carpenter, the carpenter's union will show up and "interview" you regarding why. Same for the bricklayers union, plumber's union, concrete pourers union, etc. ad nauseum. And, the general contractor very quickly gets the not-so-subtle message that if he's going to stiff them all, he might want to invest in security for his property(ies). I'll add more as I have more time.

[ 11-11-2002, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

I don't see a need for Unions anymore, not in this form.

Perhaps something like an employee rep to talk to management when the chain of command stalls, but unions now are a source of revenue, not what they used to be.

I almost got a job driving for a local dairy company, but it was a union shop. So I skipped it. I didn't see the sense in becoming a teamster when I am perfectly able to represent myself if I have a problem. One thing about drivers... I can still get work anywhere. No matter what the economy is doing.

The days of getting cement shoes aren't over... it just isn't publicized.

<font color="#ff6666">And with advances in quick setting cement they can dispose of the evidence much quicker! ;) </font>

The way you describe miami is the way things realy should be. Thats the way the resaurant industry runs even though there is a food and beverage workers union. If I had a business and got "interviewed" as to why I wasnt hireing union workers someone doing the "interviewing' might get smacked upside the head. If you think about it , unions driving up the prices of workers wages and benifits have caused more industrys to move over seas just to keep running. Maybe a chevy costing $20,000 or $30,000 isnt due to it being a better car, but due to the ridiculous wages the U.A.W. has "negotiated" for even the most barely skilled auto workers.If it wasnt for import taxes most forighn produced cars would cost half of what they already do.

<font color="#ff6666">Import taxes...otherwise known as tarrifs which are aggressively lobbied for by the unions and their PAC's</font>

[ 11-11-2002, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

Just like the front-page lobbying of the steel industry for tarriffs. Which is a perfect example of how such protectionist measures fail. Had we enacted no tariffs, the weak steel companies would have folded, allowing the strong ones to pick up the lost business a compete better. As it is, President Bush is just causing the slow death of the American steel industry altogether.

Another interesting notion - why was President Bush so supportive of this? It is the exact same union problems that he complains about where the Homeland Security is at issue (oh, what an *embarrassment* to any sensible democrat that is) that are also propping up the steel industry.

<font color="#ff6666">Can't answer your question TL, since I don't follow trade and tarrif issues for the most part. I will say, that worrying about US steel companies right now is a bit late, there aren't that many.</font>

Labour Unions can work. In Denmark we have a union-membership of around 85% - and things run smoothly. General Strikes happen on average every 13th year, when employers and workers have to test each other. On the other hand 'wildcat' strikes only happens rarely.

The labour-market works through coorperation where both sides acknowledge the others right to exist - the employers have the right to direct and allocate work, and the workers have the right to form unions and strike.

Both employers and workers unions work closely with the government to ensure that conditions on the labour-market is acceptable to both sides.

Glad to see a post on the pro-Union side. Doesn't such a high Union rate drive wages up too high? Perhaps, if Unions are so prevalent that you have 80% membership, then no one can really drive wages to the silly rates some unions do (e.g. UAW) here in the US.

<font color="#ff6666">I think perhaps the Unions in Denmark lack the involvement of our favorite "family" friends. Unions would work well here too...if it were not for the amount of extor....err Dues that the family can collect.</font>

Florida's a "right to work" State, You can tell the Union's to to kiss your (body cavity of choice) and they can'y do a thing to you. Same here in Alabama, wages are lower for the most part, but so is everything else, so it's a trade off. It's not the high cost of living that gets you, It's the cost of living high (on the hog) :D

Unions have gotten ridiculous and it will be the downfall of them. A friend of mine for some unkown reason went to Kansas City and got a union framing job. He was qualified at some sort of "Journeyman" level for which he was well qualified. He got yelled at for getting his own nails. Apparently your supposed to just stand there until a laboror brings you nails, even if the nails are only 10 feet away. I have hired a union HVAC man who was laid off. The guy would do NOTHING unless you told him to. Unions were/ARE a good idea, but they have lost touch with reality. The home prices do not allow for some idiot to make $25/hour+another $10/hour in benefits. Who can pay that? Not me. Therefore no union slackards

I have had to practically sneak out-of-state labor into my store to work on remodel. It never occured to me that the reason was to avoid having a wiseguy or two show-up.

I'm in favor of unions. Any organization is prone to corruption, so I why single-out the unions for it.

Besides, they ultimatly produce a higher standard of living. In some industries being hired in the union is alot like getting a promotion. This is how it went when I did stage-hand work. Being union meant more work for better pay, but only experienced people with connections were invited into the union.

Unions ,to be a devils advoct here, help.
They prevent the Corp' from screwing the worker, sure the screw the worker them selves but it the workers who vote what the Union does.
Non-union workers are 'told' not to do things becauseif they hurt themselves it effect the union (insurance costs etc) and it take jobs from Union members. As for not doing anything unless told, if they hurt themselves chances are the Corp' will say the weren't job what they were hired for it their own fault.
The union tries to keep it own intresets at heart, to protect their own as do the Corp's but in the end the innocent suffer from both their actions.

As for US parties, it as Goverment. They suck world over, no one does want they are ment to only what will get them in power.

That’s a mean and ill-considered thing to say, My own dear father Was a union official here once, and took part in strikes for better pay for teachers and I have only the utmost respect for what he did.

You’re expressing a very middle class view; professionals and such often have no need for unions. But there are many people who do, for example people working lo-paid jobs, May not earn enough thus not having enough job-protection,
The simple fact is, that without unions the employers can walk all over their employees, They are isolated and vulnerable, but when they band together as a union they can use their collective bargain power to ensure fair treatment.

The fundamental point remains that many workers are underpaid and often treated poorly.
For example in my fathers case, Teachers were getting rubbish pay since the government in order to save money had not given teachers any pay rise or pay rise’s below the rate of inflation, thus decreasing their wages in real terms.

Now thing about it, Teachers are one of the most important jobs in the whole of society, they create the future.
Should they be paid so badly?
Without unions they would have no recourse,
You cannot trust corporations or employers to be just and fair, nor even the government.

The problems arises that many people will enter unions in order to ingratiate themselves with their employers and thus the union can become a cats paw and a foil to the rightful interests of it's members, thus a careful balence is needed, but in the end, unions are good.

Remember, The first act of both the communists and the facists was to break the unions.