It now appears thet only 1 (one) of the hostages died due to gunshot-wounds - the rest (116 so far) died due to the nervegas the Russain secuerity service pumped into the theatre. Only 30 of those died imidiatly - the rest died later partly because the russian military refused to tell what gas was used - so the victims couldn't get an antidote.

Hopefully heads will roll because of it.

It's really tragic...and all because some little boy got scared and tried to follow his instincts. Heads may roll, but I think the problem was more poor intelligence than anything. They said that it was an anesthetic agent used to cause drowsiness, but because of the extreme exhaustion and poor conditions, that it instead caused problems with internal organs. Just a sad day. :(

Bloody miliatary. Nervegassing civilians - Id bloody well hope that heads roll.

What kind of *idiot* chose the gas anyway. And anti-terror team should know whats safe to use and what isnt. And as for not disclosing what they used in time to save the victims - what can I say. Shoot the lot.

The worst thing is that president and media went and praised the way these troops "rescued" the civilians. What in the world is that!?

<font color="#00ccff">It wasn't nerve gas! It was a knockout gas supposed to render unconciousness (sort of what one person on this board propose we use instead of guns to apprehend bad guys) not necessarily kill. But we see here that unlike in TV shows, it isn't as safe or simple as Hollywood would have you believe.

I suppose technicly those kinds of gases may be called "Never Agents" but the intent wasnt to kill but to render harmless. Give the guys responsible a break, they did the best they could with what they had. How many of you could really have done better? If the intent had been to kill they could have saved the money, bullets are much cheaper than chemical agents anyway.

[img]graemlins/1disgust.gif[/img] </font>

Give them a break? When they screwed up and killed 118+ people? Are you crazy? I'm not meaning to be inflammatory but your trivialising the death of a lot of people. Whoever was in charge of this fiasco should go on trial, along with any other idiot who was involved in this "gas" idea. Should a drunk driver not go to jail if they kill someone in an accident? Do they deserve a "break"? No the give them a break arguements are absurd. Whatever moron who thought up this harebrained scheme does NOT desreve a break.

At least they prevented the rebels from blowing up the building, that would have cost many more lifes.

At first it seemed like the troops deserved praise. Only 67 civilian casualties, mostly caused by the terrorists themselves. NOt good but it oculd have been a whole lot worse.

Now thats its come out that 118 deaths were caused by the good guys, there should be a somewhat major U turn in the way this is reported.

@magick - I dont know enough about gassing people to argue with you, but the troops did know what conditions were like inside. No excuse for what happened if you ask me. But the part about the miliatary refusing to disclose what was used, costing lived because appropriate treatment coudnt be provided, nobody could call that reasonable.

Well what were the Russians supposed to do, let all the hostages die? Now that would be unacceptable.

Not killing 118 of the hostages themselves would have been a good thing, yes? Actualy, one of the hostages was killed by gunfire, which could have been either side unless someones seen a report more detailed that AOL news provides. Which woudnt be hard. But that still leave 117.

Give them a break? When they screwed up and killed 118+ people? Are you crazy? I'm not meaning to be inflammatory but your trivialising the death of a lot of people. Whoever was in charge of this fiasco should go on trial, along with any other idiot who was involved in this "gas" idea. Should a drunk driver not go to jail if they kill someone in an accident? Do they deserve a "break"? No the give them a break arguements are absurd. Whatever moron who thought up this harebrained scheme does NOT desreve a break.</font>[/QUOTE]<font color="#00ccff">Im not trivializing the deaths. You don't think those guys are going to have problems living with the fact that they killed their fellow coutrymen insteadof rescuing them as they had hoped? The way SOME people make is sound, they went in there trying to kill the hostages. I can sympathize with the idea that the plan went bad. Things like that happen... You don't need the world jumping your shit, because you already have heaped enough on yourself. It is very easy to be a monday morning quarterback. Thats all Im saying. </font>

<font color="#00ccff">There are a lot of unknowns but I will bet you that it wasnt the onsite military commander that called the shots. It was 90% likely to be some politician, or desk jockey making the decisions. It was a very bad result, but Im guessing the guys on scene are as bummed at the results as anyone. </font>

Just in case some of you want to see what the MAIL ON SUNDAY has to say:

Innocent hostages of the Moscow theatre seige were gassed to death by the troops sent to rescue them, it emerged last night. Commandos of Alpha Force, Russia's SAS, pumped secret sleeping gas into the auditorium where Chechen terrorrists were holding 850 hostages and then launched a devastating assualt using stun grenades and automatic weapons. Some 34 terrorists were slain-but so were at least 90 innocents. Many were caught in the crossfire as hooded troops and Chechens-many of them women- engaged in a vicious gun battle. There were angry claims last night, however, that the sleeping gas was responsible for over half the deaths. Russian officials refused to identify the compound last night, but doctors confirmed that it caused paralysis and heart failure. Last night some 40 hostages were being treated in Moscow hospitals, suffering from the effects of the 'poisening'. Furious arguments broke out when relatives were denied access to the casualties. The official explanation was that the authorites feared some terrorrists might be posing as released hostages. Angry families claimed that the hospitals had been comp[letely sealed off simply because the government did not want the truth to emerge about the gas attack. This was backed up by two senior doctors who spoke out, against Russian regulations, to claim taht the so called 'sleeping gas' was really a strong poisen. Olga Karpova, of the Moscow Rescue Service, said 'This was a strong poisenous substance which effectively paralyses the respiratory system and affects the cardiological system. It can result in death. I saw this with my own eyes today."

Wrong + Wrong = Wrong.

I am not taking either side here, I dont know enough about the sintiuation to pick sides. But I was just wondering, what would have you people done? And dont give me that "I dont know, but I wouldnt have gased 100+ people" BS.

Lesson learned: If you're gonna drive the terrorists out, use Napalm, and alot of it...

Among other things, read the manual for the gas before pumping it into the building. If this gas (whatever it was) is regarded as safe for use, then there must be documentation somewhere that warns of the effects. And of course, no-one would be mad enough to use an untested gas, right? I mean, even politicans should know better than that.

And I woudnt have kept details fromt the docs either. Using a toxic gas by accident is one thing, witholding information from medical personnel is getting onto criminal.

Well, their mainobjective has been reached: to end the whole thing. Russians just have different standards than western countries do, human lives don't have the same value either.

You live on a millitary base right? are you going to join the forces ? because I think you'd be really good at it.

The only thing I see here is a tragedy. Too many of you think that things like hostage rescue are done easily. They aren't. There is as much risk in attempting a rescue as there is in leaving the hostages in the clutches of the people who took them. The guilt felt by them men who went in will be as real as the pain and anguish of the families and Russian people. The use of gas was risky. I have been trained in everytype of gas known (at least at the time I was in) and they are always risky to use. Most are devised for outdoor use. Using them indoors is a calculated risk. Using a gas that has not been designed for use like this is also very dangerous. But, what would you have had them do? 90 armed people hiding behind 700 hostages. The building thouroughly booby-trapped. The scope of that staggers me. Jumping on the damnation bandwagon doesn't do anyone any good. Wait for the facts to come out completely.

As for guilt felt by the Alpha team. Example...
Here in Nebraska. The Shootings at the Norfolk bank. Most might have heard about this. Armed men went in and began shooting people in the bank. Then fled.
5 people died. One officer in the area found out that one of the killers had been arrested by him a few weeks before. But, because he was tired and while typing up his report transcribed the serial number from the gun the suspect had been holding, transposing two numbers, the fellow was released. That officer felt incredible grief. Two weeks ago he shot himself to death. He said in his note that "he couldn't live with what he had done" He left a family behind and three kids. Can you imagion that kind of grief or guilt. He didn't do anything worse than a clerical error.

These Russian soldiers will be no less affected. Lets take a step back here and a deep breath before we start assigning blame.

Here's what i'd 'ave done, pumped in something more sensible. Either this or robotics survailence to check the inside of the hall then carried out something that was atleast more sensible, quickly in and quickly out, or perhaps a precision strike team. What do you say now eh ? Or perhaps some emp/radio jamming to disable the bomb ! Hows that, how many points do i get ?

I have to say that at least the Russkis did something instead of just waffling about. It's like the argument about whether a military pilot should have shot down one of the 9-11 airliners. Yes, the passenger were doomed, and yes, there might have been casualties on the ground, but it would have denied the terrorists their primary objective. These b******s are ingenious and deadly. I wonder how many of those terrorists will have al-Quaidq links, like training in an Afghan camp?

Mmmm.... I would have called the Israelis. They handle this stuff better. Ask Idi Amin.

Actually, radio signals or jamming could have set the bombs off.

It's terrible that anyone died in this. The fact that the terrorists had a bomb rigged specifically to kill the hostages before other bombs brought down the building let us know just how desperate the situation was. In the end, I believe lives were saved.

The horror in this is that the government wouldn't say what was used or give the hospital information needed to treat victims of the gas. I wonder how many of the 100+ lives could have been saved, if crews had been standing by, ready to treat those effected by the gas.

The person who made the decision not to release information on the type of gas used is certainly guilty of a crime.

[ 10-28-2002, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

True, Ronn. It seems the old Russian passion for secrecy and misinformation is alive and well. :(

[img]graemlins/uhoh1.gif[/img] Oh... Er... Nah. I won't even bother. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Here's what i'd 'ave done, pumped in something more sensible. Either this or robotics survailence to check the inside of the hall then carried out something that was atleast more sensible, quickly in and quickly out, or perhaps a precision strike team. What do you say now eh ? Or perhaps some emp/radio jamming to disable the bomb ! Hows that, how many points do i get ?</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, just get onto Q to give you all the nice gadgets.

You cant EMP a bomb unless you know its exact specifications. Even then, the results are unknowable. It may fail safe - official weapons *should* fail safe, but with terrorists, they probably *want* the thing to blow up if tampered with.

And robotics surveilance is all very well, but robot surveilance isnt exactly stealthy at the moment. Its more used for diasaster recovery where noise dosent matter. If there are hostiles, its too conspicuous.

The russian miliatary did all right in the actual rescue. I still think they could have been more careful with the gas, and aparantley they were executing unconcious terrorists (Or so AOL said) whihc im not to happy to hear. But afterwards is where they screwed up seriously.

"When shown an American mine clearing team, with it's mine detectors and explosion proofed jeeps, a Soviet general is said to have remarked that the way that he usually cleared a mine field was to march a battalion across it." John Keegan, World War II. :D

[ 10-28-2002, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: Attalus ]

from this article http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe...off/index.html

You people only see the negative!! Look on the bright side the MAJORITY of the hostages were saved and the explosives werent detonated.If the gass wasnt used maybe the death toll would be ALL of the hostages.Then everyone would be criticizeing the Russians inaction and how they allowed the hostages to be killed.IMNSHO the Russians did the best they could with what they had.Useing the gass was their best chance for success and since the majority of the hostages survived I would say it was a smashing success. Someone posted on here that an article on AOL said that the russians were executeing unconsious terrorists. That is definately a step in the right direction!! Why send someone with a rifle in their hand and a bomb strapped to their chest through the legal system? All it does is waste time and slow down the inevitable, or maybe they are innocent of any wrong doing and it is all just a big misunderstanding. Maybe the bomb just magicaly appeared and strapped itself to them and the rifle forced itself upon them. The government should treat terrorists caught in the act just like a home owner would treat a house breaker, like an opportunity for target practise!!

from this article http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe...off/index.html

You people only see the negative!! Look on the bright side the MAJORITY of the hostages were saved and the explosives werent detonated.If the gass wasnt used maybe the death toll would be ALL of the hostages.Then everyone would be criticizeing the Russians inaction and how they allowed the hostages to be killed.IMNSHO the Russians did the best they could with what they had.Useing the gass was their best chance for success and since the majority of the hostages survived I would say it was a smashing success. Someone posted on here that an article on AOL said that the russians were executeing unconsious terrorists. That is definately a step in the right direction!! Why send someone with a rifle in their hand and a bomb strapped to their chest through the legal system? All it does is waste time and slow down the inevitable, or maybe they are innocent of any wrong doing and it is all just a big misunderstanding. Maybe the bomb just magicaly appeared and strapped itself to them and the rifle forced itself upon them. The government should treat terrorists caught in the act just like a home owner would treat a house breaker, like an opportunity for target practise!!</font>[/QUOTE]Erm we're not actually seeing only the negative side, what we're really discussing is what could've been done to improve the rescue results [img]smile.gif[/img] Aftera ll every single human life "does" matter. As for you suggesting that it IS ok to kill unconscious terrorists, NO, that is wrong. The cause of justice is not served this way. Yes the inevitable might be an execution, agreed, but that doesnt take a man's right to stand in a fair trial. Plus DO we even know the reason behind this act. I think its time the curtains should be lifted and the point of the other side be also seen and discussed. I'm sorry but i'm not exactly the "political" type, perhaps someone else can enlighten me [img]smile.gif[/img]

Andrew: Thanks for correcting me [img]smile.gif[/img] My "plan" was based on something i read a while ago about robotics in the newspaper and some articles [img]smile.gif[/img] Oh and an addition question have they found a way to remotely disable plastic explosives ?

<font color="#00ccff">Not true in all cases. that is waaay too simplistic a view for real life [img]smile.gif[/img]

In my world, two wrongs do not make a write, but they also do not make a wrong
the equation =

wrong + wrong = Even. [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>

<font color="#00ccff">Not true in all cases. that is waaay too simplistic a view for real life [img]smile.gif[/img]

In my world, two wrongs do not make a write, but they also do not make a wrong
the equation =

wrong + wrong = Even. [img]smile.gif[/img] </font></font>[/QUOTE]But it still makes you wrong. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
:D :D

<font color="#00ccff">Not true in all cases. that is waaay too simplistic a view for real life [img]smile.gif[/img]

In my world, two wrongs do not make a write, but they also do not make a wrong
the equation =

wrong + wrong = Even. [img]smile.gif[/img] </font></font>[/QUOTE]Magic are you talking theoretically or practically, in either case two wrongs cannot even each other out. If someone is wrong it isnt necessary you turn to wrong for the purpose of taking revenge. This is where the supremacy law comes in [img]smile.gif[/img] Though i am sure that these ideas are limited to an "ideal" world, in the real world i suppose they might even each other out. Erm .. am i contracting my
own self ?

<font color="#00ccff">I did specify "my world" not necessarily anyone elses [img]smile.gif[/img] I could just as well have said "My Universe" [img]smile.gif[/img] My world, My univers, My rules! [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>

<font color="#00ccff">Not true in all cases. that is waaay too simplistic a view for real life [img]smile.gif[/img]

In my world, two wrongs do not make a write, but they also do not make a wrong
the equation =

wrong + wrong = Even. [img]smile.gif[/img] </font></font>[/QUOTE]But it still makes you wrong. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
:D :D </font>[/QUOTE]<font color="#00ccff">Not in my world. Maybe in yours [img]smile.gif[/img] In my world, "Even" is a state unto itself. </font>

Hey, Magik, "the Dreadnoks?" And you did it without [img]graemlins/spam2.gif[/img] As for the swift retribution, I remember reading about the first known Russian serial killer (besides Ivan the Terrible :D ), don't know his name. He was tried by a military tribunal (the horror!) and, on being found guilty, was immediately taken to the back of the Lubiyanka Prison and killed by his NKVD guards. One bullet to the back of the skull.

Hey Attalus,that was the "Rostov ripper" Andrei Chikatilo.He addmitted to killing and disembowling 55 women and children. He was sentanced on Oct.15 1992 and was executed on Feb. 15 1994 with a single pistol shot to the back of the head.

Very effective, and very cheap. :D

<font color="#00ccff">Not true in all cases. that is waaay too simplistic a view for real life [img]smile.gif[/img]

In my world, two wrongs do not make a write, but they also do not make a wrong
the equation =

wrong + wrong = Even. [img]smile.gif[/img] </font></font>[/QUOTE]But it still makes you wrong. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
:D :D </font>[/QUOTE]<font color="#00ccff">Not in my world. Maybe in yours [img]smile.gif[/img] In my world, "Even" is a state unto itself. </font></font>[/QUOTE]1st Wrong + 2nd Wrong = Whatever [img]tongue.gif[/img]
No no, if somebody does wrong to you (1st wrong) and you do wrong back (2nd wrong) the second wrong is this wrong. *poke* [img]tongue.gif[/img] :D

And all of this terrorist activity was over Chechnya. You'd have to think someone would point out to terrorists: "Look, if you take ANY terrorist high-profile activity and demand 'we want X,' then you have made 'X' the LEAST likely thing you'll ever get."

As for two wrongs making a "write," hell I don't even know if the make a pen or pencil. :D But, more seriously, my brain says it's wrong to execute unconscious murderous scum that don't deserve life, but my gut says something more along the lines of "A quick death was more than they deserved, as I'd have put a .22LR slug up their rear end mafia-style." But, heh, that's me in the heat of the moment. :D I know this in intellectually flawed, and that "Wrong + Wrong DOES NOT = right or even," and at the very least "Wrong + Wrong = failing grade," but I say in this case screw it. :D