<font color=skyblue>Have any of you been following this or have any been affected by it?
I read this morning that a seventh person has been sniped. A middle-school kid, being dropped off a few minutes after 8 am this morning. This has caused the schools to not do any outside activites, and all things associated with being outside in the entire school district starting today.

For those of you that do not know...a supposed sniper has been going around killing people for sport. It is believed that he is the passenger in a white minivan with black lettering. No leads have been successful, and this guy is still driving around, picking people off. A man in fueling his car at a gas station, a woman placing groceries in her car, and many more...now a kid. The police are wondering though if this last shooting might be a copy-cat crime...or a crime commited by a separate individual using the fame of the origional to hide behind.</font>

There was a seperate thread on this. But yeah, I heard about the kid this afternoon.

Yeah i have seen it on the news and have read some about it in the news paper. It makes me sick to think that someone is just running around shooting people for their own joy. I don't understand why but you never can with people that do stuff like this. The scary thing is that he has no problem with killing anyone if he can shoot a kid like that.

I'll refrain from introducing anti-gun propaganda into to this debate. ;)
But it's terrible something like this happens, of course... :(

With all the press this incident has gotten I am surprised there havn't been more copy-cats. The people doing this are very sick.

By saying this you ARE introducing anti-gun propaganda. Why say it at all?

What scares me is it was in the neighborhood I was living in - off Randolph Road. Dang it. Guess I left before everything went to pieces over there.

The whole thing scares me. It was a good place to live.

This guy ,whoever he is, is a sociopath. Having a gun or not would not stop him from preying on people. Just like having a million and one laws on the books that try to prevent these kinds of tragedies won't stop them. Bad things do happen to good people. The best that we can hope for is that law enforcement can find this yahoo quickly enough before he targets someone else. Like it or not, the law is reactionary, not proactionary. Make it proactionary, and the floodgates to abuse are left wide open.

This guy ,whoever he is, is a sociopath. Having a gun or not would not stop him from preying on people. Just like having a million and one laws on the books that try to prevent these kinds of tragedies won't stop them. Bad things do happen to good people. The best that we can hope for is that law enforcement can find this yahoo quickly enough before he targets someone else. Like it or not, the law is reactionary, not proactionary. Make it proactionary, and the floodgates to abuse are left wide open.</font>[/QUOTE]Well, so much for not introducing the gun debate. Does that mean you can't outlaw something if it is considered a social ill? What about drugs?? A proactionary law (outlawing something seen as a social ill BEFORE it can be put to ill use) abounds in the law. Sorry, but if the government can tell you you must wear a seatbelt, it can certainly tell you you can't own a gun. (Note - I'm NOT saying it *should*, just that it *can* and *does* and it is not seen as abuse).

By saying this you ARE introducing anti-gun propaganda. Why say it at all?</font>[/QUOTE]*quickly puts his secret agenda away*
Oh, no particular reason... ;)

It doesn't matter if you do so or not Groj. In holland there is a law that says we can't have firearms, but people get shot here almost every week. Gun law or not, people don't mind.

All I have to say is that if this guy is going to go around shooting people, the least he can do is shoot people who deserve it. Why shoot little kids when almost all of southwest D.C. is filled with pimps,pushers,muggers and general scumos? Not to be confused with the part of town where the senators live , which is filled with cowards,cheats,liars, and general shmuckos.

Also, Before the cops catch him I want to place my bet on the fact that he will be a white guy between 30 and 45 who is slightly out of shape,wears glasses,is divorced, and has an axe to grind with the government.I have seen articles where news men think it is some kind of middle eastern terrorist campaighn.

Didn't you just describe the son of Sam ?

<font color="#ffccff">Thank you for not bringing up the fact that people who own guns legally and responsibly are not to blame for this.

As of right now (nearly 8pm) they have not determined if this latest shooting is by the same person or wether it was done with the same weapon. Im right in the middle of this, the first few shootings happened on three sides of Kaiser facilities so Im right in the middle of it. (Hint Im not worried about the guns being responsible, there is a person pulling the trigger. Nor am I worried about being the next target.)

Current theories by local law enforcement are that there is a 50/50 chance this is a local person, or an Islamic terrorist. What it all boils down to is that they don't have a clue. THis should calm some of the conspiracy theorists that there is some shadowy super group running around keeping track of everyone at all times.</font>

[ 10-07-2002, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

<font color="#ffccff">Actually this really is sort of Son of Samish...but most of the people here are WAAAAAY too young to remember that.</font>

<font color="#ffccff">Bet covered! My bet is that it is some young redneck who isn't playing with a full deck. Oh by the way, they just mentioned the latest victim is still alive, in critical but stable condition. </font>

Nahhh. Son of Sam was takeing orders from his neighbors labrador retriever who was possessed by satan. Also Son of Sam had a definate pattern but the police at the time were too stupid to realize it and too slow to catch him till he made a mistake. From what I know about this thing in D.C. the only similarities are that the victims were completely unrelated, young, old , male and female. Maybe the Zodiac kiler is at it again? They never did catch him ya know.

[ 10-07-2002, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: The Hunter of Jahanna ]

Nahhh. Son of Sam was takeing orders from his neighbors labrador retriever who was possessed by satan. Also Son of Sam had a definate pattern but the police at the time were too stupid to realize it and too slow to catch him till he made a mistake. From what I know about this thing in D.C. the only similarities are that the victims were completely unrelated, young, old , male and female. Maybe the Zodiac kiler is at it again? They never did catch him ya know.</font>[/QUOTE]<font color="#ffccff">All of those may yet be true of this latest shooter, Hunter [img]smile.gif[/img] the pattern some times isn't seen untill you have the benefit of hindsight.</font>

Well, so much for not introducing the gun debate. Does that mean you can't outlaw something if it is considered a social ill? What about drugs?? A proactionary law (outlawing something seen as a social ill BEFORE it can be put to ill use) abounds in the law. Sorry, but if the government can tell you you must wear a seatbelt, it can certainly tell you you can't own a gun. (Note - I'm NOT saying it *should*, just that it *can* and *does* and it is not seen as abuse).[/qb][/QUOTE]<font color="#ffccff">I didn't notice anyone campaigning for theoutlawing of drugs in this debate. There are quite a number of people here who have the intelligence to realize that prohibition doesn't work, wether for alcohol, tobacco, drugs or firearms. As for helmet laws and seatbelt laws those are two prime examples of the national nanny movement. Im an adult, don't need the government protecting me from my self thank you. but all of this debate is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY off topic so lets all drop it?</font>

[ 10-07-2002, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

If there is another demonicaly possesed labrador running around I am realy going to start to worry about this country.I will worry more if there is another wacko takeing orders from it.

If there is another demonicaly possesed labrador running around I am realy going to start to worry about this country.I will worry more if there is another wacko takeing orders from it.</font>[/QUOTE]<font color="#ffccff">It never ceases to amaze me at the number and type of definite anti-social sicko's that are roaming our streets. But in this case I hope he has a better excuse than "God, Satan, the Labrador" told me to do it. Not that it will change the nature of his actions, I just like to see people wit imagination.</font>

Actually, seat belt laws do overstep .... and they allow police officers (not saying that they all do) the opportunity to harass motorists, without providing much to the public. I'll start another <a href=http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=011427>topic</a> on this debate, don't want to distract from the current thread.

Back on topic ... this guy is most likely 30-50 white and male. Just hope they don't find out that he play roleplaying games or listened to Brittny Spears or something or the media will blame those as the cause of this psyco's killing spree and call for them to be outlawed .... for preventitive reasons of course ;) . On second thought maybe Brittny Spears should be outlawed .... :D . Anyway, I just hope they catch him soon.

[ 10-07-2002, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: Night Stalker ]

I haven't heard the exact facts about all this, but is there a white minivan spotted in several occasions ? If that's the case he shouldn't be THAT hard to find. Now i know there are probably A LOT of white minivans out there, but it certainly makes it easier when you know what you're looking for. Just like with Ted Bundy, if they didn't know he drove a beetle they might have never caught him.

I beg to differ. In the UK, we have extremely strict gun laws, and it works rather well. Having people just stand in the street shouting "BANG!" doesn't kill quite so many people as if that person could easily get his hands on firearms.

Magik - I heard on the news around 5:00pm that the actually DID confirm the shooting of the 13 year old boy today was indeed related to all the other sniper killings. Have they changed that now? Saw it on Fox. Not incase you mean yet another person has been shot? :(

Johnny - Yes ONE witness said to have seen a big white box truck (which don't drive very fast on the cuff so to speak) driving quickly at the scene of one of the murders. The police have been pulling over every box truck they find (not a minivan, more like a delivery truck) since last Wednesday. I'd imagine if these killer(s) are smart, they aren't driving in that vehicle anymore, if they ever were.

I hope they catch whoever is doing this so we can all relax again. It is still amazing how few witnesses there have been after so many murders in so many different places. They gotta slip up sometime (I hope). :(

<font color="#ffffcc">I dont know LadyZekke...It was around 5 whenI heard on WMAL that they were just sending the bullet off to be analyzed....so I have no idea what is or is not for sure, except I don't think the authorities are any closer to solving this than they were yesterday :( </font>

<font color="#ffffcc">The day we heard about this we went to luch and counted 27 white "box" trucks, white vans, white delivery vehicles in just the couple miles we drove. There are litterally tens of thousands of those types of truucks here. AND today the "experts" were saying that that white truck (whatever kind it might have been) was probably ditched somewhere. Finding that one white truck is like knowing which flight is going to be targeted by terrorists. There are something like 40'000 commercial flights a day...how do you check them all...every day?</font>

I beg to differ. In the UK, we have extremely strict gun laws, and it works rather well. Having people just stand in the street shouting "BANG!" doesn't kill quite so many people as if that person could easily get his hands on firearms.</font>[/QUOTE]<font color="#ffffcc">No disrespect intended but comparing a reletively small population and tiny land mass to a sprawling continent is pretty much pointless. (you DO have several gun deaths each year and even more gun related crimes)

The issue is off topic and if you really want to open that discussion again, feel free to post a new thread. Right now we are trying to focus on whats going on with the people who live within 10 miles of me that have been killed.
</font>

That's funny, I've _always_ viewed it as abuse!

The government is supposed to protect me from violations of my rights - not be the prime violator of said rights.

who is this guy? and why is he sniping people? I mean, come on... what will happen when we capture this guy and find out who he is... WILL we capture this guy? Do we even have a clue as to who he might be? It's scarry! Just anybody could do this sort of thing too, but not just anybody could get away clean O_o this guy is either good or he's crazy, or he's both...

<font color="#ffffcc">Ummm actually this kind of thing is not all that hard to pull off in an open society. You don't have to be a trained special forces person to learn how to shoot well and an average intelligence and some forethought can allow you to succeed at this sort of thing. All the advantages lay with the guy doing the sniping. He can move around, pick his targets and wait for just the right moment to take the shot and then get away.

He is most definatly crazy if you consider sociopathic or radical miltant actions to be crazy. The fact is Law enforcement is not geered to stop this kind of thing quickly. </font>

<font color = lightgreen>The Zodiac killings all took place either near water or near places with a name relating to water. Even though they never did catch Zodiac, some theorize that the Unabomber--which may or may not have been Ted Kazynski--was the Zodiac.

The only profile of the Shooter (shooters?) that has produced the most solid leads is geographic profiling. Calculate the times between the incidents and create a mathematical model that predicts the location from which the Shooter most likely originates.

In the thread I started (called Random Shooters) I hypothesized that this person was either a terrorist or the next logical step in the evolution of serial killers.
Terrorist? Highly likely, since now people are afraid to go outside or send their children to school. The only hope of catching this kind of terrorist is to catch them in the act.
Serial killer? Traditionally, serial killers are college-educated white males and are described as being very personable. They are caught because they usually prey on victims of their same ethnic background, typically of the opposite gender. The Shooter has avoided being profiled, because the victims are completely random, except for the method of crime being chosen.

I did say in my previous thread that the Shooter wouldn't stop, because now he (most likely male) has experience and has so far avoided being caught. Whether or not the Shooter is highly intelligent or highly educated, he views himself as being more intelligent than "normal" people.

[img]graemlins/erm.gif[/img] There I go again, being unusually verbose.

I hope they catch the Shooter before the copycats happen.....</font>

[ 10-07-2002, 10:54 PM: Message edited by: Azred ]

Just wanted to put in my 2 cents worth:

First off, it's terrible the type of things these people have done (I'm assuming two cuz driver+passenger) and I hope they're caught before any more harm comes to anyone. My fav uncle lives in Maryland, and he's a colonel in the army and <u>he's</u> scared in a major sort of way.

Second, saw a graph/statistics right after the Columbine shootings. It showed Canadian murder rate vs American murder rate. Without guns, almost the same. Without guns, US was like 8 times higher. Just saying...

<font color = lightgreen>Curse me for a fool. The Shooter is not a serial killer; the Shooter is a terrorist. I'm not saying he has any links to the Middle East or Al Queda, but he is definitely a terrorist.
Serial killers choose their victims carefully, but the Shooter picks people almost at random. Almost, but not quite--he chooses only public places: schools, gas stations, parking lots, street corners, post offices, and front lawns thus far. Killing is not his goal, only shooting people, because the little boy and the woman in Fredericksburg have both survived.
Besides, the Shooter seems to be two people (a driver and the shooter) and there has never been a pair acting in concert as a serial killer.

The goal of a terrorist is to cause so much general panic that people cannot live their daily lives in a normal manner. Now, people there cannot go to school, refuel their cars, shop, drop off mail, walk through the city, or even mow their grass without thinking "Am I next?".
The only way to catch the Shooter is to have such an overwhelming law enforcement/national guard presence that you effectively have martial law.

[img]graemlins/erm.gif[/img] All I can say now is "oh, s***", and I never use language like that here. I certainly hope I'm wrong on this one....</font>

while some people are debating on the topic of gun control and its ethic values, I just like to say a few words about how terrible this crime truely is.

I know a lil about sniping of morden warfares from a civillian's point of view, so I'd like to comment a few words. if I make mistakes, John and others can feel free to correct me.

no offense, but this shit is pretty fucked up. the mid-school's policy, the refrainment from outside activity is just not enough. sniper-rifle is a terrible tool, its master a terrible killer. I will use a M24 Sniper (a modified Remington 700 firing 7.62mm rounds) as an example.

Sniping requires the mastery of many different skills other than marksmanship. In order to graduate, a student will have to successfully pass a variety of tasks, among them the following: unknown distance shooting for time (up to 800m), firing at moving targets during the day (400m-700m) and night (300m-600m), stalking over various terrain against two sniper instructor observers (requiring two shots at the same target undetected) etc etc

In unlimited visibility condition (clear day), a sniper can detect and engage target up to 800 meters, which convert to approximately half a mile. In case you have no idea how long that is, it is about 8 street blocks, the distance from 1st Avenue to 8th Avenue on California Street, two third of the Golden Gate Bridge main span, or over twice of the height of the Empire State Building at New York.

There is nothing more dangerous than a well aimed shot. Giving the vast population and the non-combat situation, anyone could easily become a victim at any moment, and the killers perfectly blend in with the civillians. Like the news said, the killings are random and can happen at a GREAT distance. No one is safe from the attack, no police force can prevent the crimes. And even if the Long-Range-shooter misses the first shot and the intended victim realizes the threat, there is virtually no chance of surviving a second. The pausing between each shot is approximately 1 second.

The target can be your neighbor's son, your uncle, a stranger next to you on the sidewalk or yourself. It can happen the moment that you step out of your door going to work, but it is more likely when you are getting out of Macy's and returning to your car. The resounding blast like a popping shampion bottle will be the last thing you heard. It is just like that, completely unexpected, unseen, and coming out of nowhere. Worse, you die knowing the perpetrator may continuely comittee the same crimes many times over.

I've read and heard many stories, and experienced (not in reality) it many times to come up with one conclusion: the power a sniper rifle grants is tremendous and terrrible. Thus if it falls into the wronghand, the damage will be sickening. You know I am not a person easily moved, but this crime disturbes/disgusts me to no end.

And finally, a word for the sniper, differing from the cowards who act murder

[ 10-08-2002, 01:25 AM: Message edited by: 250 ]

Of course he is, he should be. everyone who truely comprehends the indication should be scared.

But not nearly as many as in the US, relatively speaking. And most shootings here in the Netherlands are in the criminal circuit, assassinations and all; and not even that often; public shootings are still rare.
And at least over here not every idiot owns a gun; and looking at the number of idiots in our country, I'm *very* glad that's the case. Can you imagine football hooligans with guns? Those morons trying to invade the Government building on the night Fortuyn was killed? People taking measures in their own hands to "solve" problems with minorities in our country? Those are the moments I'm really glad owning guns isn't as easy as in the US. ;)

I heard on the radio this morning that the kid that got shot yesterday is in serious, but stable condition. just wanted to pass it along.

250, for once I actually agree with you about something, good post about snipers.

[ 10-08-2002, 08:32 AM: Message edited by: Morgeruat ]

mmm, thanks? :D

<font color="#ffffcc">Umm there are only 30 million people in canada...we have 10 times the population you do...gee and only 8 times the gund deaths? Id say we are even. [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>

<font color="#ffffcc">Back on topic....The kid who was shot yesterday is doing much better and trying to sit up int he hospital. he is still in serious condition but doing better! [img]smile.gif[/img] Good news!</font>