I've noticed a disturbing trend lately, and that has been the lack of policemen. Yes, I see them driving around giving people speeding tickets and parking tickets, but is this what police were inteded for?? How is this protecting and serving the public trust? In my personal opinion, and the opinion of a majority of the people that I have spoken with about this, a victimless crime should not even be considered a crime. Regardless, even if it is considered a crime, why do police waste their time taking radar on people driving 10 miles faster then they are supposed to be, when they could be out patrolling and preventing a possible murder or rape? Why is the police force out solve murder/rape/robbery, when it should be out trying to prevent it? When did our police force degenerate from trying to help and protect the common man, into something that is in essence a self serving money hungry political mechanism, and why has our society let this happen? Police are no longer doing what they were intended for. No more are they out to protect people, now their goal is to get more money for their city enforcing whatever law is convenient enough and will get them the most money. Why prevent a murder when there is no money in it? This is bad enough, but it is only the tip of the iceberg. With police doing racial profiling, and planting/contaminating evidence. Less than a week ago police illegally searched the car of a friend of mine. apparently he was pulled over because one of his back blinker lights was out, which he was not aware of. They asked him if he was using any drugs, and he said "no" because he hadn't been, then they asked if they could search his car, to which he responded "no". they hassled him for a while longer and then searched his car anyways. They of course found nothing, because there was nothing to find, then on top of all of that, they gave him a ticket for having the blinker out and snet him on his way. Now the dangerous criminal that my friend is required the attention of 3 police cars that were over an hour. Now you tell me, couldn't the attentions of the police been better used elsewhere during this incident, especially when there was an armed robbery of a gas staion across town at the exact same time? (I found out about the robbery later, on the news) Some sort of drastic action needs to be taken to amend this gross disregard for the public welfare. Maybe we need to amend some of the idiotic, pointless, and/or antiquated laws that our society foolishly clings to, or maybe we need a drastic restructuring of our entire legal/law enforcement system, or most likely we need a combination of both, but something must be done. I urge all Americans and everyone for that matter to think long and hard about your current law enforcement agencies, and ask yourself how well they serve their inteded purpose. You might be quite surprised by the answers you get.

So you're saying that we shouldn't focus on prevention? What if the guy that was pulled over for driving too fast was going to hit a 12 year old girl named Susan and put her in a wheelchair for life?

If you have not omitted any facts, the search was illegal and all fruits of the search, had they been garnered, would be inadmissible. 'Course your friend has to be or know a good lawyer to know this, which is how most people get screwed. To those of you who don't know, the correct answer to a search question is always "No." No matter what. Who wants them wasting your time?

I think the situation that has got AzRael so upset is inherent in the model of person we want to be a police officer. We want them zealous, overbearing, commanding, etc. - hell, they're "silver souls" right? But, that same personality type and traits are quite similar to the element we expect policemen (and women) to combat. There is, truly, little difference between the law enforcers and the lawbreakers many times. Quite simply, this is IMHO why you run across a lot of "bully" cops. Goes with the job.

3 word for you 'accidents happen regardless', what if he was going 20 and hit susan, and she was in a wheelchair for life?

I think his point is that there is too much unsolved crime and entirely too many traffic cops. To an extent, I feel this is true. I won't argue that keeping the roads safe is important, but there seems to be a little unbalance here. The fact that traffic ticketing generates fairly easy revenue with minimal risk is obvious. If anyone expects me to believe that speed traps and large scale freeway stings are used for any other purpose, I remain skeptical. Of course, you couldn't put officers in constant mortal danger for thier entire shift and still expect them to stay at the same wages. If you tried that, we wouldn't have any police at all.

It's important to remember that while police are there to help protect and preserve order, they are under no legal obligation to do so. If they should fail to protect you they are not legally liable. I recommend that you exercise your legal right to carry a concealed weapon by obtaining the proper liscense. Would more people take their responsibility as citizens seriously, I feel crime rates would drop drastically. I also think we would be in less danger of losing a cherished american right to apathy and cowardice.

its not just that particular situation, though that did get me a bit miffed, its the fact that that situation probably happens everyday, and that we have just come to accept that as the way of things. its completely ridiculous. even though they had no right to search and anything they would have found supposedly wouldn't be admissable. lets say they found some pot, and my friend is poor and can't afford the lawyers O.J. got, what then. basically its the cop's word against his, and he will lose almost every time. even though they searched and found nothing, lets say my friend was on his way to work, and he got fired because he was an hour late due to the search, what kind of justice would that be for him?

I agree that not all accidents are preventable but there are ways to keep down the probability of them happening. Susan was a neighbour of mine that was hit on a sunny afternoon ten years ago. She has had bad depression and her teenage years could have been alot better had the speeding asshole been travelling the speed limit.

He got six months jailtime and lost his licence for three years. Susan is still living with the consequences.

I hear what you are saying and I'm sure that not every cop is above board, but I'm also sure that it is still the majority of law enforcement officials that are doing their job to the best of their ability.

I think that in part you're right, Az. It seems like the police aren't always at their most efficient. Take for example, last year at my school. Two cops are busy busting a couple of casual kids for smoking some pot, while not two blocks away, a brawl resulting in three hospitalizations is breaking out.

I disagree that they're quite often like this. It seems that you hear a lot about harassment and whatnot on the news, but most of the cops I have witnessed are very professional and know what they're doing. They know that one wrong move and the bad guy walks, so they watch their step. Of course, it's not so hard when you've got a police force for 900 000 people that has something like 30 murders a year (very good average.) I think that everyone makes mistakes, and when some people make them (police, President of the United States ;) ) it seems to be a lot more public and looks more widespread then it actually is.

Thats another topic of concern for me. namely drug laws, though thats not what i meant this thread to be about, so I'm not going to get started on that

Well I didnt read your entire first post, but to answer your intial question (Why the police do not do their job anymore), is because anytime they do anything the least bit psychial to anyone thats not a white hertrosexual male they get branded a racisit or its a hate crime.

To a certain degree I am with you. Crime needs to be cleaned up. But as PC is the world is today its hard to do something with out offending anyone.

I have to agree with Iron Ranger on this one.In the area where I live all of the drug dealers are "people of color". If you show me a white guy dealing drugs , I will show you an undercover cop. When the local cops arrest one of the real dealers all they do is spout off at the mouth about profileing and racism.Never mind the fact that they had enough drugs on them to supply half of the city. It gets even better when they fight with the cops , because as soon as the cop roughs them up they scream "police brutality".

As for your friends situation with the cops Azrael, a way to prevent it in the future would be to either get electric door locks or lock all the doors when you get out.It is kind of hard for a cop to get into a locked car.Also unless they place your friend under arrest they cant take his keys from him.So , when the search is refused they cant just go ahead and do it anyway.

I think that the police do a marvelous job. Every time I commit a crime, there they are, right behind me :D [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Not to burst your bubble, but this is not correct in many places. Fact is, here in Chicago 90% of the ne'er-do-wells the cops deal with are in fact people of color. It's a fact of life, and they do not by any means avoid people of color for fear of a racist branding. Chicago's really good about hiring minority officers as well, so this is not such an issue.

<font color="plum"><font color="orange">AzRaeL</font>,

I'm sorry your friend was detained for so long, but were not totally out of line. A broken tail-light IS sufficient reason to pull somebody over. AFA the search of his car, the police do not need his consent - as long as they can prove "reasonable suspicion". Obviously, that's a very subjective area, but as others have pointed out, officers have to be able to justify what they do or they will get ripped apart in the courtroom. And if they conduct an illegal search without justification, they have wasted the judges time, something they frown on greatly and that they won't forget. The next time the officer comes before that judge, he had definitely have his facts together in an unreproachable manner.

I know this for a fact because a good friend of mine is a policewoman in Charlotte, NC. Another mutual friend of ours mentioned the exact same type of incident. A friend of his was pulled over and his car was searched without his consent. One reason is that the guy was a "river guide" (we have two rivers that attract a LOT of rafters in this area) - and as my friend admitted, these "river guides" have a not-undeserved reputation of being "wasters" (his term, not mine).

BTW, they found nothing in his car either.

There has been a lot of talk about "preventing murders" and other "serious crimes" instead of just doing the equivalent of "no-brainer work". But as Downunda pointed out, ticketing speeders IS a preventative measure. Yes, Susan MAY still have been hit if the driver was only doing 20, but I seriously doubt it. He would have had MUCH more time and distance to stop before hitting her. High speed and inattentive drivers are the major causes of almost ALL accidents (unless one driver or both are "impaired"). What the cops are doing is allocating their resources in the most efficient manner.

There is absolutely NO WAY for them to PREDICT where a murder or robbery will take place. Therefore, it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to prevent these crimes (unless the officer just happens to be at the right place at the right time). But there IS a way to predict when and where people will be speeding.

<font color="skyblue">True Moose</font> mentioned the kids being busted at school for smoking pot while a public brawl was going on just a few blocks away. Again, HOW were the cops supposed to know a brawl was going to break out? They couldn't know. BUT, it's a pretty safe bet they can catch some kids smoking pot at the school house.

My other main point is this - Cops have one of the hardest jobs there is, PERIOD. How many of us face a very real risk of being killed every time we go to work. Then, on top of that, any action we take while performing our job is subject to intense public scrutiny in which they are "damned if they do and damned if they don't". If they crack down on drug dealers, they're accused of profiling and racism. If they don't crack down, they're accused of taking "kickbacks" and letting drug dealers run rampant. If they setup a road block or speed trap, they're accused of "trying to meet their monthly quota", but if they don't stop a speeding driver who later cripples a little girl for life, then they're accused of sitting on their butts at the donut shop instead of out on the street where they are supposed to be.

Again, I'm sorry your friend was inconvenienced, <font color="orange">AzRaeL</font>, but I have far more sympathy for the cops than I do for him. In the end, your friend received a ticket for a legitimate violation and nothing more. So I really don't see that he has any reason to complain.

Just my opinion,though. Others may (and probably will) vary.</font>

I think I see Azrael's point though. I think the police concentrate on petty violations more than they should. I got stopped because I was doing 65 on a 55 road here in Maine. I mean come off it, it was a deserted country road at 2am. What I was doing out at that time was far more questionable, if you ask me :D [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ 09-24-2002, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: Arledrian ]

I can attest to this, I work with several MP's, who are reservist, and their normal work is as police officers, in the Washington DC, or baltimore area, and several of them work in "ethnically profuse" neighborhoods, and have on several occasions had cases thrown out because of racial profiling, despite the fact that their area to work in is a majority of blacks, or hispanics.

which is more likely why you got stopped, except in completely anal small towns where they need to supplement their budgets with traffic tickets most cops ignore you if you're doing 10 or less over the speed limit, the speeding was simply an excuse to stop you and check.

true, but it would have been just as easy to give the guy a warning, especially if he was unaware of the violation.

<font color="plum">They probably could have, but after searching the car and finding nothing, it was probably their way of "saving face". Yeah, it's petty and they could have overlooked it, but they're also within their rights to issue the ticket.

Several years ago, a college buddy of mine and I decided to take a road trip to Raleigh, NC. He had a brand new Mustang SVO and - on the way back - was driving around 85-90mph. Suddenly, his radar detector lit up like a Christmas tree and we saw a cop cut across the median about a half-mile in front of us (which wasn't very far considering the speed we were doing).

My buddy was SURE they had caught HIM on radar, so he got hard on the brakes and took an exit that happened to come up before we caught the cop. We pulled into the convenience store and spent about 30 minutes waiting for the trooper to give up and go on down the road. He didn't.

He was still waiting for us when we came back down. The only problem was, my friend had hit the brakes before he could get an "official reading" on his radar. He was sitting on the side of the road and pulled out after we passed. He followed us a little way, pulled out as if he were going to pass, then dropped back behind us and "blue-lighted" us. Seems my friends tag had expired, so the trooper was able to give us a ticket for that.

But his "real" message was to let us know the he COULD have had us for a much worse violatio.

Just like <font color="red">Arledrians</font> example, I'm guessing they had a different reason or suspicion for pulling your friend over, and the taillight was just a convenient "back-up" in case their suspicions were incorrect.</font>

we need speed limits like they have on the autobon -p
you know i hear most of the accidents they have are by foreigners instead of the local populace, so it aint speed that kills, its people who arent used to the norm.

Police shouldnt be focuses on preventing a murdur, they ought to be more focused on solving the huge stockpile of cases they have. And in the example above where the brawl breaks out at the same time as the pot smokers, well the police will likely have been informed by their radios that a brawl is taking place nearby and they need to move their butts; just like the convenience store robbery; the cops will likely have been alerted, and all nearby units should drop any petty concerns like speeding tickets to move for an immediant capture of the crooks.

As a former peace officer, I feel I need to respond to the statements I've read here.
Police were intended to enforce laws. Most police forces do not issue parking tickets, these are handled by city officials and is strictly a city matter, of course this may vary depending on where you live.
Excess speed kills, period. The whole point of issuing a ticket is in homes that it will deter the offender from speeding and potentially risking innocent lives. Mix speed and alcohol and it becomes a deaadly mixture thus traffic is a very important aspect of law enforcement. Lower speeds save lives!
However, I don't believe that your beef is with your local law enforcement agency but rather with your politicians who are deciding the funding needs for the force, who are undoubtedly under funded and over worked.
Police officers put their lives on the line every shift without question and an incredibly stressful environment. Traffic stops are always an unknown.
Your friend may not have been a dangerous criminal, but he may have been so therefore backup was necessary to protect the lives of the officer and your friend.
It would be nice if we could have an officer posted on every street corner or receive tips on every robbery, murder or rape before it happens, but that is un realistic and logistically impossible so police patrol higher crime neighborhoods.
I worked both traffic and green team for four years, usually 4 ten hour shifts on and three days off. My ten hour days often turned into 13 or more hours, beause of the tremedous amount of paperwork required to be completed for something as simple as a broken taillight.
It's not a drastic restructuring of law enforcement that's required. The police are doing their jobs by enforcing the laws and a broken taillight is a ticketable offense. As for the search of the vehicle I am not privy to the entire details of the stop, but I'm sure there was sufficient suspicion to warrant a search. The police are protecting you, my friend.

Ticketing speeders may be a law, but a ridiculous one, reckless driving, yes that should be a ticketable offense, if you are driving out of control, even going 20 you are a danger and should be dealt with, but lets say you are on the freeway cruising at 80 and there is almost no one else on the road on a sunday afternoon, whats the point in taking radar when the police could be preventing a real crime that would have a real victim. I got a speeding ticket a while back, and in the city i live in on top of court costs, which is complete BS they made me pay a victims fee. that is completely ridiculous. And as for my friend OK he had a tail light out that he was unaware of, maybe it even burned out as he was driving to where he was going that day, they give him a ticket, maybe a bit excessive, but whatever, police like to waste everyone's time, either way what right do they have to search his car? thats a complete perversion of the bill of rights, which was set up i remind everyone by our founding fathers, who knew how valueable these rights were and knew that they needed to be protected at all costs, because one could not live in a free society if they were not guaranteed these unalienable rights. granted with slavery and women's right not everyone was entitled to these at first, and that was a travesty, and in my consideration a dark point in american history, but now everyone is 'guaranteed' these rights, but that guarantee is hollow, because it is not delivered, and the people that are mean to enforce these basical laws for the safety and well being of our society waste their time on things of much lesser importance. This whole attitude completely disgusts me, as it should any American. Even people not doing anything wrong 'fear' police harassment, and thats just not the way things were intended.

Animal, I agree with [edit/] most of [\edit] what you say, but I have NEVER met a peace officer who didn't believe there was sufficient suspicion to warrant a search. That's why so many searches get thrown out of court by us lawyers.

[ 09-25-2002, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

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Hey AzRaeL, you simply do not understand the rights you're asserting. The 4th Amendment protection in the constitution is from *UNREASONABLE* search and seizure, and was debated in the Federalist Papers when the Constitution was being drafted, as well as later when the Bill of Rights (being the first 10 amendments to the Constitution) was being put together. There are legal tests as to what constitutes "reasonable suspicion" and "probable cause" to search you in different situations - and the law differentiates between the cops' ability to search you when they fear you have a weapon as opposed to when they simply think illicit activity is afoot.

As far as privacy, that is a separate and distinct right (more or less) from the one mentioned above, and does not apply in the case where you're in your car. The "Right to Privacy" is not stated *anywhere* in the constitution or bill of rights, but is a right that has been *found* in the constitution by the Supreme Court, which says it is part of the "penumbra" of rights that "emanates" from a larger group of amendments - sort of an underlying theme that the Court found in several amendments, including the 4th Amendment. However, the Supreme Court has said there is *NO* reasonable expectation of privacy when you are in your car, which is reasonable since you're in full public view of anyone who wants to look through the window. That's why I leave my crack, heroine, and alcohol still at home. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I ran a stop sign the other night. Yes I was ticketed [img]tongue.gif[/img] Sucks! But I have to admit I was guilty of the violation. Errr actually I ran two stops signs but since I was cooperative he only gave me a ticket for one. Woops!