Howdy.
Lately I've been seing a tremendous increase in the amount of single parents, divorcees and messy breakups out there. It would seem that the notion of marriage has changed quite dramatically in recent decades. Where once it was an economic business arrangement of practicality, nowadays it serves as an expression of so fickle and chatoic a notion as 'love'. Thus it would seem that as people pick and choose their relationships (as opposed to just having to 'go with what they get' so to speak) it would seem that the solidarity of marriage has weakened greatly. One used to be given a partner that one would simply have to 'make do' with, and not that great a deal was made as to the emotional 'compatibility' of the two individuals in question. Yet nowadays a fortune is being made by those peddling cheap answers to 'marriage problems' which essentially seem to be arising from people's increasing dissatisfaction with the institution of judeo-christian monogamous marriage.
What I'm trying to get at is do you people think that the traditional institution of marriage and the nuclear family is becoming incompatible with the modern 'free' consumer society? Can the institutionalization of supposed 'freedom' and 'independance' within the psyche of the modern consumer continue to support the traditionally restrictive system of wealth distribution that marriage essentially is? The mounting evidence would suggest not.

Well, you do realize that there are some who argue that the downside to the old "solid" form of marriage, i.e. a unempowered woman in a patriarchal religion and world with no options, was not rather a happy thing. Necessary, but not happy. Though I share some of your same concerns, I must say that many of my parents' generation that I know got a divorce because of a bad situation - one that they simply would have "toughed out" in other historical time periods. Is it better to tough it out or leave? I guess that depends on how bad it is.

Thing is, me and my wife are both professionals. We have our own lives/careers that we have developed for the 23-25 years of life before we met. Neither of us have ever had a lack of romantic interests in our lives. This means we both have options - neither of us is with the other because we "settled." Thus, every moment we are together and love each other we know that the only necessity is our shared bond. Because the world doesn't dictate our situation, it is voluntary at every moment. Because of that, we know what we have is real.

I've been happily married for 14 years now. :D
It's not the institution of marriage that is the problem, it's the values of the individuals in the marriage that determine success or failure. Trust, fidelity, love, passion, respect, courtesy, communication, mutual interests, etc. I remember my wedding vows. Society has very little of these values in it now, which is truly tradgic. Here's a point to ponder: We have thousands of laws to enforce 10 Commandments.

Modern marriage has been redefined by the empowerment of women. No one has to stay in a bad relationship because of economic dependence, so that an unsatisfactory marriage is quickly scuttled. Both my wife and myself were previously married, and we left bad situations to come into a good one. I can't see that this is bad in our case, though I think that sigle mothers are a problem that society will have to address, sooner or later. Murphy Brown to the contrary nonwithstanding, the figures on child and spousal abuse, drug dependence, and incidence of poverty speak for themselves.

My wife and I will be married 19 years on September 24. So far so good - do you think it will last.

The only difference is that we have no kids, so I sometimes wondered why we just didn't decide to live together instead.

Mark

I think that the increased rate of marriage breakups (and then general lack of respect for the institution) is a matter of selfishness.

There are too many people that want instant gratification, and aren't willing to take responsibility for the results of their actions. No commitment, just the pleasure of the moment.

I'm not going to get into women in the past being imprisoned in bad relationships, or home violence, or anything like that but you might want to think about the general lack of stability in a society that doesn't take the nuclear family seriously.

It's well known that Soviet Russia (shortly after the revolution) disdained marriage, seing it as an outdated western tradition. Within a few short years, their society was falling apart (much like western society today, in fact) high rates of juvenile crime, etc. It didn't take them long to do an about face, and basically make it mandatory to be married if you wished to pursure a carnal relationship - violations were severely punished (at least for the plebes [img]smile.gif[/img] ).

Without a stable family structure to grow in, and caring parents to nurture them (*both* parents) kids just don't grow up to be fully functional members of society. I see it all the time. I also see the counterexamples - strong families with devoted parents bringing up happy, well balanced children.

The disintegration of the marriage institution is the product of a materialist consumerist culture that teaches people from birth to place their "needs" (which are really only wants) above those of the timeless ties of family and community. People grow up to be selfish, alienated narcissists who don't understand the true nature of love, and marry for all the wrong reasons like money, power, sex, etc. Or they reach for love out loneliness, insecurity, and desperation, only to find out too late that it was never really there in the first place. Too late is usually when there are already one or more children involved. That money is leading killer of all marriages is no coincidence. No one can deny that it's what drives our society, but ironically it is also what is breaking it apart from the ground up.

The subsequent failure of these individuals in their marriages and lives breeds a generation of children even more desperate and alienated than their parents. I don't mean this disparagingly, but these message boards are a perfect example. The vast majority of us (myself included) are on these boards because we're searching for some kind of community that is lacking in our homes, neighborhoods, and schools. We form a community here based on our common interest in certain 'things' like computers and video games. The word 'things' is important here because that it's the things that we are taught to want to and need that form the basis for our common bond. Unfortunately, this bond in reality is unstable and as fleeting as a mechanical failure or flick of a switch. So, while we may find temporary solace with each other, in the long run we are no better off. If you doubt that, come back here in three or four years and see how many of us are still here.

It would be interesting to take a poll here by age group and see how many of us come from divorced or single parent homes. I can guarantee that broken-homes kids would be the majority, and that you would see the divorce rates increasing on a generational basis. I'm one of the lucky ones, because I come from a stable two parent household, but I'm still affected because I live with it every day in my friends and peers, the vast majority of whom come from broken homes. Their tightest bonds, I've found, are with each other, where they try to recreate lost familial bonds in their friendships. Even these bonds are frail however, because most of us eventually wind up going our separate ways. My own family is probably what saved me, because as a child I was never able to fit in the outside world. I still feel like a dinosaur some days. The saddest part is, at age 25, I'm already seeing friends so through the marriage-divorce cycle.

So the answer to your question Hierophant is no, the institutionalization of supposed 'freedom' and 'independence' within the psyche of the modern consumer cannot continue to support the traditionally restrictive system of wealth distribution that marriage essentially is. Note that as our society has become increasingly corporatized, so too has the divorce rate increased as family and community is laid aside before the altar of the almighty dollar. That we are given more freedom and independence by consumerism is a myth and a lie. We are in truth more bound by our institutions than ever. Sadly, marriage has become little more than just another one of those institutions. One way or another something has to change, whether by our own collective wills (how much of what goes against basic human nature can people take?) or by this cycle continuing until everything falls apart, which may not be far off either. I hate to think of my children or grandchildren having to pick up the pieces. That's why I sincerely doubt I'll ever have kids.

<font color = lightgreen>Actually, the relationship <font color = red>Belle</font> and I share is far from modern, but very modern in one sense--we met via the Internet.
We both also came from disastrous previous relationships and are now extremely happy together. People who knew us when we first got together said "internet relationships don't last". [img]graemlins/idontagreeatall.gif[/img] We got the last laugh--only our relationship is still going, all the others having broken up. [img]graemlins/laugh3.gif[/img]

Anyway...the reason that "traditional" marriages work is not because it is the moral thing to do, it is because it works. Statistics show that stable marriages have a lower rate of creating children who have emotional difficulties or problems adjusting into society. Besides, it's more fun to be with only the one you love. [img]graemlins/beigesmilewinkgrin.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img] </font>

Personally I don't think that marriage is the problem. The "old-fashioned" idea is still good, people are the problem. Unwilling to bind themselves for life or sacrifice a bit of freedom to make someone happy, and immediately jumping at any better offers. Being too superficial, they go for people who look good instead of people whose minds they like and can enjoy being with.

Bloody hell, I feel as though I'm in a timewarp reading this. Hello guys, welcome to the 21st century...

LOL, Epona, that is what we are worried about. Hope that your burn is better.

Well at the begining of your post I was all nodding and all .. (nice arguments)
Why did u clutter them up with that Russia talk .. it broke the whole line of thinking IMnsHO!@

Lharae: very nice post ( u write these kind of posts at 25 years of age?)

[ 09-19-2002, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: Hexa ]

Well, I surely don't plan to marry for money or 'economic' reasons! [img]tongue.gif[/img] Hell, my tax bracket will be worse - married couples get stuck on the tax rosters in the US. If that's all I wanted, I'd stay single.

I'm marrying for love and committment to one man, someone I want to spend my life with and wish to make a permanent, legal (and for me, religious)committement to. He is not Christian, so he's not doing it for that reason and marriage was his idea at first and he sure can't be looking for money in this relationship! LOL So I'm gonna have to say he's also looking for that committed relationship and the stability of marriage.

I agree with those who have suggested that many marriages break up today because those entering them do so for the wrong reasons or without really thinking it through. Marrying someone on a 'whim' or just because you think it's a good idea at the time isn't likely to end up permanent. Marriage is a major committment of time and energy and COMPROMISES! Many people forget that last one and that's often when things fall apart.

My fiance and I are in love, but we've also tackled the big issues in our conversations. We both acknowledge that love alone is not all a marriage should be based on and if we work out these things ahead of time, we expect ours to be healthy, thrive and grow.

Having experienced alot of the things written in this thread myself, I would only have to offer a gentle honest reply to say that I am a little sad that this day and time both partners are pressured to have independent this and that pounded into social cliques, media, and family traditions. Alot of which can really spoil good marriages.

When I married my wife I didn't know how "much" she was worth or how much she made at her job. I was pleasantly surprised and we dealt with it as we needed. Wasn't that important compared to what was real with ourselves.

Most of my family is basically traditional. My parents have been married for almost 32 or 33 years (can't remember, oops) and most of my aunts and uncles that got married, are still with their 1st spouse. Only 1 out of 6 cousins have gotten divorced, and my sister. Most of my friends have divorced parents but were raised no differently. Sometimes it makes then bond more strongly with their familys. Just as long as neither parent is insulting about the other around the child. Not sure how my son or nephew will fair in future relationships, though.

Happy (upcoming)Anniversary!

My in-laws also celebrate on the 24th, and my b-day is the 25th!

Also , thanks for the post in my "video card" series. I'm seriously looking at the site you provided. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

I think the problem is that in a marrage everyone wants to be the chief and no one wants to be the indian. In my marrage I am the indian in a sort of speaking. My wife doesnt walk all over me , but I dont challenge her about every little thing either. For example if we are going out to eat or see a movie when she asks me where I want to go my usual answer is "Where ever you want to go is fine with me".I answer that way because I realy dont mind where ever she wants to go because movies and going out arent realy my thing , but she enjoys them so I go with her. I have married friends who when asked the same question by their spouse turn it into a 20 minute discussion and eventualy fight about it. My wife and I have yet to have a single fight in the year and a half we have been together. I think this is because both of us see the bigger picture.If something isnt going to matter in an hour then why fight over it?? It also helps that unless it is something I truly hate, like going to a water park filled with unruly children, I am up for doing anything as is she. There isnt realy any comprimise as much as there is mutual agreement that unless one of us hates to do it , or we cant afford it ,anything goes.As far as fidelity and things of that nature go, neither of us has time for anyone else except each other if you get my meaning.

Also , I think people spend too much time looking for the right one and not enough time finding the right one. I see friends that will split up with someone as soon as they do something even slightly annoying.They never realy take the time to get to know someone.They treat a relationship like a job. THey will spend all day, every day with someone and not know anything about them, kind of like they are just co workers and not lovers.IMHO things like that are just a collosal waste of time and resources.

[ 09-20-2002, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: The Hunter of Jahanna ]

Since I´ve been married for 9 years now I ahve no objections to marriage :D But the interesting part in my mind is that humans as a species isn´t supposed to be monomgamous since this would lead to a depletion of gene variety. So if we should follow evolution (and I can´t believe I´m typing this [img]graemlins/nono.gif[/img] ) one night stands would be the best thing for everyone... I just love moral issues lol! :D

I have to disagree with you WillowIX. While I think that speaking in only biological terms, your argument is attractive, I find that it ultimately falls short. Yes, as nonthinking creatures with mixed-gene procreation and fornication [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img] behaviors you might be right. But, we have this brain, see. Which, among other things, makes us "economic" actors (by this I mean "selfish," at least to some degree). Thus, I am willing to make a commitment of monogomy, at least in part, because I want my partner to make the same commitment. I simply want her for myself and am willing to give up other women to seal the deal.

Course, then you throw in other "thinking" creature traits - like love - and you can find even more reasons why humans, quite NATURALLY, become monogomous.

Dolphins mate for life, you know. Many animals do. But, dolphins are one of the few other animals that have sex for pleasure.